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Sirius and Alnilam, Secret Societies

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#436    AlnilamPhiSiriusly

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 April 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

One can't, or at least shouldn't, base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist. To the italicised portion above, one could also make the ridiculous claim that there being no evidence that secret societies comprised of little green men from mars (somehow) validates a claim that there were. This would be an example of ignorance at its finest IMO.

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Ridiculous to ignore the fact that evidence does not exist may be because evidence has been destroyed:

to assume that no evidence has ever been destroyed  is simply naive


#437    jaylemurph

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:47 AM

View PostAlnilamPhiSiriusly, on 01 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Ridiculous to ignore the fact that evidence does not exist may be because evidence has been destroyed:

to assume that no evidence has ever been destroyed  is simply naive

I don't want to speak /for/ Cormac, but that's certainly not what he's impying. (Or so I hope.)

I'm not sure if it helps or hinders your argument, but I would like to point out that history is not archaeology. It isn't a field based 100% on artefacts. It consists of (sometimes less, sometimes more) theorization. But not errant theorization, not theorization with no evidence. I'm not aware of anyone who assumes no evidence had ever been destroyed. However, I would assert is it exactly as naive for you to speculate using non-extant evidence as it would be for someone to assert no evidence has ever been lost.

The theorization that does occur (and, I would argue, should only occur) is based on the premise that theorization is of more worth the more evidence from which it is based. Theorization with out recourse to facts or reliant on nothing more than possibilities is of limited use in understanding the past. The biggest problem with using non-extant information is the (complete) inability to divide what you want to believe from the truth. Personally, the sort of thinking you seem to lionize always strikes me as fundamentally lacking in discipline and rigor, which is to say it is ultimately unlikely to be useful in understanding the past or of convincing other knowledgable people, which I take to be the point of historical debate.

--Jaylemurph

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#438    cormac mac airt

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:40 AM

View PostAlnilamPhiSiriusly, on 01 May 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

Ridiculous to ignore the fact that evidence does not exist may be because evidence has been destroyed:

to assume that no evidence has ever been destroyed  is simply naive

If it doesn't exist then it's not a fact.

To assume that there was any evidence to begin with which later was destroyed, based on nothing more than the assumption, is the height of conceit IMO. Again, one can't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist.

That evidence "may" have existed, which has since been destroyed, is a possibility. But then nobody, including yourself, would know about it to begin with so you have no argument other than trying to present a negative as a positive. It doesn't work that way.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#439    monk 56

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

On 31st December 1857 Queen Victoria chose Ottawa as Capital of the Province of Canada, Midnight day marker was used to record event in the stars, as Sirius was culminating in the centre of the sky over Ottawa, information and astronomy graph on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=4100&mode=view

The British North American Act 1867, being the Union of Canada is dated 29th March 1867, ancient Greek day marker was applied being sunset on 28th March 1867, as Sun set, Sirius was culminating in the middle of the sky over Ottawa, information below:-

http://www.solon.org...sh/ca_1867.html

Astronomy graph below on link:-

http://2012forum.com...=7164&mode=view

Only evidence counts on topic with thread, as a scribe on history and intentional astronomy i can be posting for years ha ha!


#440    monk 56

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:36 PM

I'm fond of Alexander Pope's translation of Homer's Illiad, i'm not sure if Homer would have valued Sirius as good or evil, there are many secret societies that align to it today, who knows?

Please scroll down link below on Illiad translation to "Page 65" to see Sirius the Dog Star mentioned:-

http://quod.lib.umic...2;view=fulltext


#441    jaylemurph

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

View Postmonk 56, on 01 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

I'm fond of Alexander Pope's translation of Homer's Illiad, i'm not sure if Homer would have valued Sirius as good or evil, there are many secret societies that align to it today, who knows?

Please scroll down link below on Illiad translation to "Page 65" to see Sirius the Dog Star mentioned:-

http://quod.lib.umic...2;view=fulltext

...so this isn't even attached to anything. It's just an Augustan English poet who /mentions/ Sirius exists. Because it's already extant in the text he's translating.

Truly, deeply illuminating.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#442    monk 56

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

I mention that Sirius has been valued in astrology teaching for thousands of years, fixed star observations are older than usual western astrology that has been around in its present form for about 2,000 years, obviously it is noticable that Homer could have been interested, sometimes secret societies interpret belief about Sirius differently, indeed the Romans thought this star was evil, please scroll down to "The Name" on link below:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Days

Even if you scroll down link below to "Sirius" its interpretation isn't that favorable:-

http://www.astrothem...fixed-stars.php

There are other books on links below that i have that can give it a more favorable interpretation, but hardly a star that i think politicians who have astrology beliefs that align to constitutions and war should be thinking of doing ha ha!

http://2012forum.com...=3828&mode=view

http://2012forum.com...=4508&mode=view

http://2012forum.com...=4507&mode=view

Obviously Sirius or the Dog Star isn't only mentioned once in Alexander Pope's translation of The Illiad, please scroll down link below to "Page 74":-

http://quod.lib.umic...2;view=fulltext

Please note that studying people who are using astrology is different to believing in this myself, although i have an open mind regarding beliefs.

Edited by monk 56, 01 May 2013 - 08:23 PM.


#443    jaylemurph

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 09:23 PM

View Postmonk 56, on 01 May 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

I mention that Sirius has been valued in astrology teaching for thousands of years, fixed star observations are older than usual western astrology that has been around in its present form for about 2,000 years, obviously it is noticable that Homer could have been interested,

But do you understand nothing in this post points to anyone intepreting anything about Sirius? I think you may have the same issue with the word "obviously" that you do with "political" -- whatever you mean by it is not jiving with the accepted English use of it. Nothing you've posted has been obvious to any of your readers.

And, "Could have been?" Maybe. Not that there's a great deal about it in any of his extant works, other than (as you post), passing mentions that it exists. By exactly the same logic, he could have been deeply interested in the occult associations of spears, walls and the wine-dark sea. And virtually every other word in the Iliad. It hardly makes a compelling argument.

Quote

sometimes secret societies interpret belief about Sirius differently, indeed the Romans thought this star was evil, please scroll down to "The Name" on link below:-

I'm not going to waste my time looking at whatever link you provide unless you can drum up some sort of compelling association with Homer or some other salient point. From what I can see, your critical methods seems to consist of throwing mud against a wall to see what sticks. While that may be endlessly fascinating to you, I hope you understand it is somewhat less interesting to other people and certainly doesn't make a convincing argument for... whatever it is you're arguing. As I've said, you've provided no reason to review your first 26 pages to find out. This certainly doesn't generate any reason to.

Quote

Obviously Sirius or the Dog Star isn't only mentioned once in Alexander Pope's translation of The Illiad, please scroll down link below to "Page 74":-

Obviously you still haven't made a convincing argument why it might be worthwhile to notice this. Perhaps you could provide some sort of framework to judge what is worth noticing in the Iliad and what is not.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph, 01 May 2013 - 09:27 PM.

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#444    monk 56

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:11 PM

Hi Jaylemurph,

Evidence just keeps on coming on topic to thread, please read first page to understand, Canada Day comes from 1st July 1867, i look to this with location of Capital Ottawa, midnight day marker was used while Sirius was aligned to Nadir, information below:-

http://www.timeandda...nada/canada-day

Astronomy graph below:-

http://2012forum.com...=7165&mode=view

Malaysia day or Proclamation of Malaysia happened in Kuala Lumpur on 16th September 1963, information below, as another example:-

http://en.wikipedia....ion_of_Malaysia

Egyptian Sunrise day marker was chosen as Sun rose at location, Alnilam, Belt of Orion and Osiris star was culminating in the middle of the sky, astronomy graph on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=7114&mode=view


#445    AlnilamPhiSiriusly

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:55 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 01 May 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

If it doesn't exist then it's not a fact.

To assume that there was any evidence to begin with which later was destroyed, based on nothing more than the assumption, is the height of conceit IMO. Again, one can't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist.

That evidence "may" have existed, which has since been destroyed, is a possibility. But then nobody, including yourself, would know about it to begin with so you have no argument other than trying to present a negative as a positive. It doesn't work that way.

cormac
Interesting opinion.


Until the ancient city featured on this video was found, its existence was merely theoretical.



It's not complicated.


#446    cormac mac airt

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:17 PM

View PostAlnilamPhiSiriusly, on 01 May 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

Interesting opinion.


Until the ancient city featured on this video was found, its existence was merely theoretical.



It's not complicated.

Not hardly since Hattusa was first established by the Hatti and later used by the Hittites. There was nothing theoretical about it.

Obviously it's too complicated for you since you don't seem to understand the difference between "legendary" and "theoretical". The former of which has been applied to this settlement of the Hattians/later capital of the Hittites. The latter of which doesn't apply to anything here. Plenty enough was known about the Hattian and Hittite peoples before Hattusa's discovery to know that it existed.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#447    jaylemurph

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:30 PM

View Postmonk 56, on 01 May 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Hi Jaylemurph,

Evidence just keeps on coming on topic to thread, please read first page to understand, Canada Day comes from 1st July 1867, i look to this with location of Capital Ottawa, midnight day marker was used while Sirius was aligned to Nadir, information below:-

http://www.timeandda...nada/canada-day

Astronomy graph below:-

http://2012forum.com...=7165&mode=view

Malaysia day or Proclamation of Malaysia happened in Kuala Lumpur on 16th September 1963, information below, as another example:-

http://en.wikipedia....ion_of_Malaysia

Egyptian Sunrise day marker was chosen as Sun rose at location, Alnilam, Belt of Orion and Osiris star was culminating in the middle of the sky, astronomy graph on link below:-

http://2012forum.com...=7114&mode=view

You just are not getting this. You're not making any sense. To be frank, I think part of it may be your English skills, but part of it is not. Part of it, it seems to me, is the fact you don't have any particular single idea or point you're making, and you're just amassing things that intrigue you in the same way magpies collect shiny objects, and you assume this speaks for itself. It doesn't. You seem frustrated other people aren't engaging you in the way you want, but you are not leaving anyone a solid idea to react to and give you feedback for. I hope you see now, as well, that nobody's going back to read the old pages in this thread, even after the time you (graciously) allowed.

But maybe I'm wrong. Are you able to put forth a coherent, intelligible statement of your theory in your own words? Not a link to another site, not someone else's work, not a Youtube video, and not buried in your previous 30 rambling, semi-coherent pages? As in "I believe that Sirius or X, Y or Z means this." "I think secret group A is performing actions B, C and D to achieve the ends E, F and G." "The Association between the Star Sirius and Secret Society Alpha is this."

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#448    monk 56

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 01:10 AM

Hi Jaylemurph,

My interest isn't to bury you, i fully understand how you debate, perhaps sometimes i use another language it is called Math, members will note that i do win battles in math, please show where you win battles in this area and astronomy??

My philosophy is odds of chance regarding terrorist attacks, constitutions, war etc with math, it must be noted i give prime examples all the time and accurate astronomy, if you want me to start on Washington DC thats my candy bar.....you may not understand me in English...how good are you in math and odds of chance?

Because of the roll of the Earth in astronomy it gives factors in math regarding Latitude and Longitude, both are different measures, both are valued in odds of chance, if you don't understand me it is you are not using math or astronomy, or do not respect my graphs....math isn't English where you can debate odds of chance!

I'll try this to be simple with video, but you must know math to compete in debate....i have left the door open to attack but be aware of me!



I will say this may be synchronicity, but then the odds favour that astrology works but not how most think!   oops!

http://en.wikipedia....i/Synchronicity

Be careful how you go Jaylemurph.....don't try me in math, even if you try in English....i leave two links below, no doubt you won't understand math language ha ha!

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10705808

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Hermeticism


#449    monk 56

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:06 AM

Hell i come from London, the debate is i'm not using English Language.....oops could it be why many don't understand...oops could the philosophy be what i apply be Math Language.......question mark?


#450    jaylemurph

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:10 AM

So, that's a "No, I can't put forth a coherent, intelligible statement or theory" in your own words.

And unless you mean something completely different from the rest of the species by "mathematics" -- which your longitude as probability idea certainly suggests -- then you don't speak that very effectively, either.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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