71 replies to this topic

[pbarosso]

where? Jesus.

[Seeker79]

itsnotoutthere, on 25 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

That's only the premise for some types of gods... Not all Religous people take their scripture literally. Holding up the fundamandalists in place of the moderates is fallacious.

[Mr Walker]

itsnotoutthere, on 25 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

Biblically, god has already forgiven  every sin of mankind, individually and corporately. From there it is up to us to accept that forgiveness and act on it, living a life which minimises sin because we love god (or our fellow man).

If we can do that, god's forgiveness kicks in automatically and we are saved. If we knowingly continue to sin against god and other humans, and reject gods love and forgiveness, then we cause our own demise.

[itsnotoutthere]

Read most of the replies to this but sorry if i've missed this one but......perhaps because he doesn't exist!!
To use an old saying, 'if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck & looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck' i.e. the obvious answer is most likely the correct one.

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 25 November 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Sean93]

Mr Walker, on 25 November 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Biblically, god has already forgiven  every sin of mankind, individually and corporately. From there it is up to us to accept that forgiveness and act on it, living a life which minimises sin because we love god (or our fellow man).

If we can do that, god's forgiveness kicks in automatically and we are saved. If we knowingly continue to sin against god and other humans, and reject gods love and forgiveness, then we cause our own demise.

Would that apply to an atheist who is a good person? Because it is said "Those who believe in me shall never Die" If God see's an atheist who is a great human being, loving caring, kind, would he turn them away just because they did not profess a belief in him, despite their living a good life?

Obviously you can't really know but you seem like a Judeo-Christian believer so I'd like to hear you view on that.

Edited by Sean93, 25 November 2012 - 10:29 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Sean93, on 25 November 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

Would that apply to an atheist who is a good person? Because it is said "Those who believe in me shall never Die" If God see's an atheist who is a great human being, loving caring, kind, would he turn them away just because they did not profess a belief in him, despite their living a good life?

Obviously you can't really know but you seem like a Judeo-Christian believer so I'd like to hear you view on that.

The only trouble with atheism is that it is active disbelief in god. While god can forgive an atheist anything, how can an atheist connect with god in the way needed to be saved. ? (in judaeo christian theology)

Personally (and only philosophically) i believe that there will be good atheists in heaven and good pagans muslims jews etc. The only people who wont be there will be people who are "unsafe' to allow into heaven because they do not have the qualities required to live there, or on the new earth. eg they will still have the human flaws which they refused to surrender, like anger hate etc. These people will  actively refuse the saving and healing grace of christ and remain "too human" to be safe in heaven.Others who won't get to heaven (in theory) are people who remain actively hurtful hateful etc  ie they remain unrepentant of the hurt they do, whether they are christians or never heard of christianity.

Theologically/philosophically and logically, based on christian teachings there will be many good loving people in heaven who never heard of the judaeo christian god. Who lived before worship of him was known, who lived outside of the spread of christianity, and young people who died never knowing god.

But a person who actively denies the existence of god? Thats a hard one How can they enter into a place and a relationship which they totally refuse to believe exists? In my experience, one can live with god in heaven on earth today, while still alive But this is impossible also for a human being who wont accepet the existence of god or the nature of heaven on earth. You cant live in a place, or a space, or with an entity, you cant see, or feel, or perceive as existing.

Edited by Mr Walker, 26 November 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[MysticStrummer]

itsnotoutthere, on 25 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

And yet the whole premise of God & religion is 'do as I say or burn in the fires of hell for eternity'. where does the idea of an 'all forgiving' god come from?

That's not the whole premise of God and religion. That's only one of many. As for the OP, some schools of thought would say God is revealed to us everywhere in every second of every day.

Edited by MysticStrummer, 26 November 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[Sean93]

Mr Walker, on 26 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

The only trouble with atheism is that it is active disbelief in god. While god can forgive an atheist anything, how can an atheist connect with god in the way needed to be saved. ? (in judaeo christian theology)

Personally (and only philosophically) i believe that there will be good atheists in heaven and good pagans muslims jews etc. The only people who wont be there will be people who are "unsafe' to allow into heaven because they do not have the qualities required to live there, or on the new earth. eg they will still have the human flaws which they refused to surrender, like anger hate etc. These people will  actively refuse the saving and healing grace of christ and remain "too human" to be safe in heaven.Others who won't get to heaven (in theory) are people who remain actively hurtful hateful etc  ie they remain unrepentant of the hurt they do, whether they are christians or never heard of christianity.

Theologically/philosophically and logically, based on christian teachings there will be many good loving people in heaven who never heard of the judaeo christian god. Who lived before worship of him was known, who lived outside of the spread of christianity, and young people who died never knowing god.

But a person who actively denies the existence of god? Thats a hard one How can they enter into a place and a relationship which they totally refuse to believe exists? In my experience, one can live with god in heaven on earth today, while still alive But this is impossible also for a human being who wont accepet the existence of god or the nature of heaven on earth. You cant live in a place, or a space, or with an entity, you cant see, or feel, or perceive as existing.

I get what your saying. Of course there always going to be people who just cannot believe in the Judeo Christian God, or any god/goddess for that mattter will and find it absurd no matter how much they try, the same way there are people who find it impossible for the Judeo Christian God to not exist.

The Judeo Christian God, Yahweh, holds as much water for me as Zeus or Thor or Apollo but that's not to say he/it/she does not exist, they might for sure but one thing I certainly don't take seriously is Religion, no thank you, human's are natural liers and Charltans and there is now way I'm putting my trust in one of the many 1000's of religious texts out there that have been through more men than an Afghani hooker, which in turn renders their gods almost defunct to me. Of course, unlike militiant atheist's, I prefer to admit that I may be wrong.

Edited by Sean93, 26 November 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 25 November 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

If we can do that, god's forgiveness kicks in automatically and we are saved. If we knowingly continue to sin against god and other humans, and reject gods love and forgiveness, then we cause our own demise.

Where can I find out more about sin so I won't do it?

[scowl]

MysticStrummer, on 26 November 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

That's not the whole premise of God and religion. That's only one of many.

But it is the main one. Obedience to to God is paramount. If you don't do this, you burn in hell forever. No exceptions.

Quote

As for the OP, some schools of thought would say God is revealed to us everywhere in every second of every day.

I would like to hang around someone who sees God fifty thousand times every day.

[Mr Walker]

scowl, on 26 November 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Where can I find out more about sin so I won't do it?

If you want the christian version, study the nature of sin as outlined in the bible.

To me sin is deliberately hurting yourself or another. Because i am in god and god is in me, and beacuse this is true for all humans; then hurting/limiting myself or another is hurting god. Hurting another is hurting me. hurting me is hurting humanity.

That includes deliberately limiting your own potential as a human being or limiting the potential of another person. Being destructive is a sin being constructive is not. Acting from hate and anger can be a sin acting from love is less likely to be. Thinking hateful hurtful thoughts is a sin because such thoughts and visualisations programme our brain to wards acting on them even if we never do. And the results of harmful thoughts are harmful, even when they are not acted on. They hurt   and limit the person feeling and thinking them. The good thing though is that we all sin. The point is to do our best not to out of love for god and our fellow man, and when we do to make restitution, be truly sorry, and try our hardest not to repeat our mistakes.

[Bling]

God won't reveal himself to us because he doesn't exist, or is ashamed of what he's done to us or is a really ugly b******!

[Artaxerxes]

The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.  It's in the "not knowing for certain" that generates the emotion needed to imprint on the soul the lessons it needs to learn. That is the reason life is the way it is.  

The most emotional thing anyone can experience in this life is the death of someone they love.  Nothing else comes close.  If we knew for certain that there was a God and life after death and that one day we'd be reunited with them in Heaven we might not mourn as much and death would cease to be the powerful lesson it is in what it means and how it feels to be separate.  

Heaven is the place of oneness and connectedness.  So much so that it may be impossible to learn or know what it feels like to be separate, much as someone who has been assimilated into the Borg Collective (from Star Trek: Next Generation) loses their personal identity.  

We come here to experience separation to teach the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate.  Once the soul has learned that lesson, when it is finished, it is able to merge back into Heaven and not lose it's individuality.  It's uniqueness.  You are still you.  

Life is one big long lesson in separation, from the moment you exit your mother's womb and the umbilical cord is cut in two till the day you die and our deaths become a lesson in separation to the loved ones we leave behind.

[Bluefinger]

Darkwind, on 18 November 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

There are lot of "real decent people" out there who don't believe in god and a lot of real indecent people who do. I think the criteria is flawed. If you want to fill heaven with decent people shouldn't the criteria be they be decent people whether or not the believe in a god?

I think the entire perception above of heaven is flawed.  It is essentially pagan in substance.

The early Jews believed that heaven was the reality expressedly manifest when God dwelled among His people.  

The hope set forth in OT writings was that, with God dwelling among His people Israel, Israel would become a light to all the other nations and that they would put behind them all their evil practices and injustice.  It could be said that they failed, and so God left them to their demise at the hands of the Babylonians.  Since then, God's Spirit had not filled their temple.  

After the second temple was rebuilt, God did not return until, as Christians claim, God entered the temple in the person of Jesus.  Jesus taught and confirmed a new covenant with Israel by which God's Spirit filled the Church, the new temple, with His Spirit on Pentecost.

Thus Jesus' words, "The kingdom of God is near" were fulfilled.  Heaven (God) had come to Israel and was spread out to all nations (through tongues on Pentecost.)  

So why the Silence?

Revelation 12 makes it explicitly clear that Israel was going to cease to be a nation and that the times of the Gentiles would begin.  This ministry is covered by the two witnesses in Revelation 11 and the scope of their ministry is to be those who:

"...keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus..."  (Revelation 12:17)

Since Israel was dispersed by the Romans in 70 CE, the communication of God has been with His people, the Church through them keeping His commands and holding to their testimony of Jesus.  

Before any jump to conclusions, please take note of Jesus parable of the wheat and the tares (the good seed and the bad seed) who are distinguished in time by their deeds:

He put another parable before them, saying,  "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field,  but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds  among the wheat and went away.  So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.  And the servants  of the master of the house came and said to him, "Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?"  He said to them, "An enemy has done this." So the servants said to him, "Then do you want us to go and gather them?"  But he said,  "No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers,  Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn."" (Matthew 13:24-30 ESV)

Heaven is here now, and it is with the Church.  But because of the false Church, it is hard to tell the difference.  Here is a good way to tell:  

1)  The commandments of God are the teachings of Jesus.  He fulfilled, reinterpreted, and expanded the commandments of God.

2)  The testimony of Jesus is the loyalty to Jesus despite the negative repercussions given by those around us.

If you want to hear God speak, I recommend following the teachings of Jesus.  If nobody has any disagreement that Jesus was a good man, then perhaps the fact that many don't practice his teachings is not sufficient evidence that God does not talk to people today.

[scowl]

Mr Walker, on 27 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

If you want the christian version, study the nature of sin as outlined in the bible.

No I want the correct version, the one that will keep me out of hell. Everyone tells me the Bible is wrong. Even Jesus couldn't keep track of the Commandments!