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OBE fears and questions


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#31    Kazahel

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:02 PM

I have shortened your posts to the important parts

View PostMr Walker, on 25 March 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

ANd yes, it has been recorded, including a number of russian government experiments in the latter half of last century.

Then provide the evidence to show that science has verified it. I am assuming you are using the word 'recorded' to mean they have recorded studies into it but that doesn't mean they proved anything. If it did then show us that.

View PostMr Walker, on 25 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

It can be verified using scientific controls. YOU say science has not verified it. i do not know if that is true or not

So you are saying the Russians have not verified it as a scientific fact?

Anyway when I quickly look it up I find this in regards to obe and science.

"The accepted explanation for the OBE in the fields of cognitive science and psychology is that the OBE is a hallucinatory construct that arises from different psychological factors.[7][8][9][10] The scientific community consider the OBE to be an experience from a mental state, like a dream or an altered state of consciousness without recourse to the paranormal"

Found here http://en.wikipedia....body_experience  

View PostMr Walker, on 25 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

as acurately as a military drone and a lot closer up but because it is hard, and rare to do, andn even rare to do this "on demand", it has little military or other application.

So in an obe(or remote viewing)you claim you can see things as accurately and as real as a military drone but it has little military application. I'm not sure how that works exactly. You'd think it would be a wonderful for spying.

Anyway this is what I found in regards to remote viewing.

" Scientific studies have been conducted; some earlier, less sophisticated experiments produced positive results but they had invalidating flaws,[1] and none of the newer experiments had positive results when under properly controlled conditions.[2][3][4][5][6] The scientific community rejects remote viewing due to the absence of an evidence base, the lack of a theory which would explain remote viewing, and the lack of experimental techniques which can provide reliably positive results.[7] It is also considered a pseudoscience.[8]["


Found here...   http://en.wikipedia..../Remote_viewing


So again all I read is fluff as if it's facts.


#32    Kazahel

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 01:34 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 25 March 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Question all, is`nt  a true out of body experience is when you can turn around and see your body lying there frist.?

Typically. But basically an obe is when you are dreaming that you are seeing your body or have experienced the sensation(dream) of leaving the body. Many obe'rs use the WILD technique to induce an obe. The WILD technique stands for Wake Induced Lucid Dream. If you wish to have an out of body experience you simply have to use the WILD technique and then focus on your body as you fall asleep instead of focusing on the dreaming environment or creating one. This tricks your mind into thinking you are actually leaving the body(as if for real) when really you are just dreaming you are leaving the body.

So the world and your bedroom is a memory of what it is or a guess at what it is. So you might think you are seeing other people in your house but they are the minds guesses at where the person would be.

People will tell you that you are truly leaving the body and that your soul is leaving the body and walking around your real house but this has never been proven. (and considering how many people can obe you think it would've been by now).

This is why I've been asking for proof. Scientific proof.

So the logical and common sense explanation to OBE's are that they are dreams of leaving the body, not the soul actually leaving the body.


#33    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostKazahel, on 25 March 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

I have shortened your posts to the important parts



Then provide the evidence to show that science has verified it. I am assuming you are using the word 'recorded' to mean they have recorded studies into it but that doesn't mean they proved anything. If it did then show us that.



So you are saying the Russians have not verified it as a scientific fact?

Anyway when I quickly look it up I find this in regards to obe and science.

"The accepted explanation for the OBE in the fields of cognitive science and psychology is that the OBE is a hallucinatory construct that arises from different psychological factors.[7][8][9][10] The scientific community consider the OBE to be an experience from a mental state, like a dream or an altered state of consciousness without recourse to the paranormal"

Found here http://en.wikipedia....body_experience  



So in an obe(or remote viewing)you claim you can see things as accurately and as real as a military drone but it has little military application. I'm not sure how that works exactly. You'd think it would be a wonderful for spying.

Anyway this is what I found in regards to remote viewing.

" Scientific studies have been conducted; some earlier, less sophisticated experiments produced positive results but they had invalidating flaws,[1] and none of the newer experiments had positive results when under properly controlled conditions.[2][3][4][5][6] The scientific community rejects remote viewing due to the absence of an evidence base, the lack of a theory which would explain remote viewing, and the lack of experimental techniques which can provide reliably positive results.[7] It is also considered a pseudoscience.[8]["


Found here...   http://en.wikipedia..../Remote_viewing


So again all I read is fluff as if it's facts.

You are interpreting the scientific conclusions through your own biases. My point is that, because it cannot be (or very rarely) done on demand under laboratory conditions science as we use it CANNOT verify its existence (due to the parameters and nature of science)

One day we will learn how to as we have learned how to see into thought processes and memory storage in our brains.

It is the lack of abilty (in my experience,) to do this on demand  which makes it unreliable for applications. But one can see things and even go inside installations and read material .One can look under coverings and inside locked objects. If this could be done on demand then it would be very useful. I dont know how many humans have this abilty but i have read of several around the world who were able to demonstrate these skills. It only has to be demonstrated ONCE convincingly, under controlled conditions, to know that it is humanly possible. After that science can work out how to erefine the ability and use it.
  Science IS working on telepathy in this regard, with considerable success. Remote viewing is only a more extensive form of telepathy.

It doesnt worry me what you believe. I can understand your disbelief but you are wrong. One convincing and controlled personall experience would teach you the truth. I have dozens of such  experiences which can be verified as accurate, using normal scientific controls.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#34    Kazahel

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:47 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 26 March 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

You are interpreting the scientific conclusions through your own biases. My point is that, because it cannot be (or very rarely) done on demand under laboratory conditions science as we use it CANNOT verify its existence (due to the parameters and nature of science)

One day we will learn how to as we have learned how to see into thought processes and memory storage in our brains.

I'm using common sense and experience(it just happens science agrees with it). And you are assuming that "one day we will learn how to" based on your own bias.  So as you have said science has not verified it. And why do you think not one person in the world, out of all the people that claim skills with obe haven't been able to.. That in itself should make people really question it.

View PostMr Walker, on 26 March 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

It doesnt worry me what you believe. I can understand your disbelief but you are wrong. One convincing and controlled personall experience would teach you the truth. I have dozens of such  experiences which can be verified as accurate, using normal scientific controls.

You mean I am wrong because I wont accept your personal(bias)experiences/beliefs? I've had convincing experiences too but I still cant claim the spirit is actually leaving the body. Perhaps certain unexplained things are more to do with telepathy(I don't know). But I cant say obes(spirit leaving the body)is a fact and no one can even going by personal experiences. So we are all entitled to our opinions but not our own facts(I know that's very cliché).

And looking closer at your 'verified' obe experiences.

View PostMr Walker, on 25 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

To sum up tha twhich can be indpendently and objectively verified can be calimed as an OBE That which can not be so verified cannot

Now I'm taking this as meaning independently verified by someone else. That's correct yes?

Which means I'm not sure how you independently verified some of your own 'obe' experiences. Take this for example.

View PostMr Walker, on 25 March 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

My first obe "world tour" which lasted nearly 10 hours and followed the sun around my line of latitude, took over a year of training planning, disciplining my mind etc, in preparation for it. It is not something accesible to everyone unless they are prepared and interested enough to make a similar commitment and sustain it. And first you must have control of your dreams and perfect memory/ recall of them, so that you can "step into your consciousness" and extend it at will and follow landmarks or other means to reach a destination.

For me it is a lot like flying a hangglider a hundred meters or so above the earth, and requires physical landforms and way points to reach a required destination. You see what is physically below you as you travel, as well as when you reach your destination. You can soar up higher to get a better/wider view but that means you lose detail of the landmarks

So this makes me question for starters how you got this all independently verified and it makes me question what you meant exactly by "planning" and the things that I have underlined. If you are using landmarks from planning you cannot use landmarks as a way to objectively verify the experience because the landmarks would be a memory. But that aside how could you get travelling to another country independently verified?

You also said..

View PostMr Walker, on 25 March 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Today i can verify instantly via google earth and other sources if what i see and encounter in a OBE has a real and accurate counterpart in real life.. If it does not, I do not count it as an obe but as a controlled lucid dream.

Which means you might be able to use google maps(to verify for yourself) but are they independently verified by someone else?  Considering you have said "That which can be independently verified and objectively verified can be claimed as an OBE"

So it seems you are saying you can obe to a place and if its the same as google earth shows then its a verified experience. But I wouldn't count that as being independently verified. So all these 'obes' you are claiming have been verified don't appear to even fall under what you consider a way to test a true obe.

Edited by Kazahel, 27 March 2013 - 04:51 AM.


#35    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:52 AM

View PostKazahel, on 27 March 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

I'm using common sense and experience(it just happens science agrees with it). And you are assuming that "one day we will learn how to" based on your own bias.  So as you have said science has not verified it. And why do you think not one person in the world, out of all the people that claim skills with obe haven't been able to.. That in itself should make people really question it.



You mean I am wrong because I wont accept your personal(bias)experiences/beliefs? I've had convincing experiences too but I still cant claim the spirit is actually leaving the body. Perhaps certain unexplained things are more to do with telepathy(I don't know). But I cant say obes(spirit leaving the body)is a fact and no one can even going by personal experiences. So we are all entitled to our opinions but not our own facts(I know that's very cliché).

And looking closer at your 'verified' obe experiences.



Now I'm taking this as meaning independently verified by someone else. That's correct yes?

Which means I'm not sure how you independently verified some of your own 'obe' experiences. Take this for example.



So this makes me question for starters how you got this all independently verified and it makes me question what you meant exactly by "planning" and the things that I have underlined. If you are using landmarks from planning you cannot use landmarks as a way to objectively verify the experience because the landmarks would be a memory. But that aside how could you get travelling to another country independently verified?

You also said..



Which means you might be able to use google maps(to verify for yourself) but are they independently verified by someone else?  Considering you have said "That which can be independently verified and objectively verified can be claimed as an OBE"

So it seems you are saying you can obe to a place and if its the same as google earth shows then its a verified experience. But I wouldn't count that as being independently verified. So all these 'obes' you are claiming have been verified don't appear to even fall under what you consider a way to test a true obe.

To give one simple example. one day at schol i heard my senior students (17-18 years of age) talking aobut having a camp out that night. (friday) I said i would obe over to where they were camping and record three things. What each one of them was  wearing wha t each one of them was drinking, and what they were talking about.

I would seal this in an envelope as soon as i recorded it on waking. I asked each of themto do the same thing colectively and individually during or after the  bushie.

Next monday at school we opened the envelopes and compared notes. I had the clothes and the drinks absolutelycorrect for all of them( about a dozen young blokes) I also had the conversations almost verbatim but this was harder to be certain of because, by the time I was there  it was after midnight and they were very drunk, and while I could accurately record everything they were talking about they were more vague in their own written descriptions.

Still, there were enough specific correlations to be certain.  Now, I had no idea wha tthe boys would be wearing or drinking and only a vague general idea of what they might talk about.  It is statistically impossible for me to have known and described precisely their clothing, drinks, and specific parts of their conversation  from over 20 kilometres away. I could also, in addition, describe their vehicles and where they were parked, swags used, location of campfires, what they were cooking on and eating; but i hadnt asked them to record this and so could only verbally confirm it whch is not as accurate as indpendently sealed envelopes with the details written inside each.
Thats the sort of example i am talking about It is not something tha tcan be used to convince you but it is evidence of a scientific nature which is quite adequate for me to know i was succesful in flying above that camp, watching the boys, and recording exactly what it looked and sounded like. I have many other similar examples which demonstrate clealry the nature of such experiences and which canot be explained (given their accuracy) in any other way. The furthest invloved an OBE from australia to a small farm house outside a town in canada. I was able to give detailed descritions and knowledge of the house, surrounds, and contents of an old barn, known (in Australia) ONLY to the  canadian exchange student in my home group, whose home it was, and who verified all the details.  I had oranised with her to obe to her home and then to describe in as much detai all I could What eally stuned her was my sdescriton of a beautiful old car i saw under a tarpaulin in the old barn Turned out it was a fifties cadillac her father had bought for her as a graduation present And which they were going to restore on her return NO ONE in Australia knew anyhting about this gift or its presence in the barn I alsodescribed this old lean to barn with log timber walls and timber shakes /tiles on the roof, as well as the exact description of her house and the trees etc in her yard as we;l as the surrounding natural vegetation, road systems etc. (this was before the internet was invented.). She was basically speechless.
The only thing i had ot go on was the basic location of the nearby town and the fact it was part of a rail network. I used the rail system to locate the town by flying above it, and then flew the few miles out to her farm.

I understand  your reluctance to believe and the reasons for it but that is all irrelevant. Obeing is a verifiable physical ability of humanity. Reasoned thus. I am human.  I can do it and have it clearly objectively and indendenlty verified. Thus anyone should have the potential to do it also. There is nothing intrinsically special about me, apart from the fact that I am a bit more intelligent than the average, started reading when i was two developed an eidetic memory and have been working onmy own intelligence learning knowledge and abilities for 60 years. On the other hand I am  a little colour blind, tone deaf, and unable to consciously visualise even simple objects. But I fall well within the range of human norms.

Ps it is not in my opinion "your spirit leaving your body " it is your own consciousness projecting out and linking with the consciousnesses of other humans, AND linking into the universal consciousness which contains the sum total of all consciousnesses past and present. You can do the same thing while conscious as forms of mind reading clair voyance and jus tseeing or knowing things via other consciousnesses. There is nothing mystical or supernatural about it. It is a property of humanity like seeing and hearing  and it connects you to the greater reality around you just as all other senses do. I am inclined to this view because i have lived with the abilty since birth  and have had to learn to use it, as we  learn to use sight touch and hearing etc.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 March 2013 - 07:56 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#36    Kazahel

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:13 AM

Ok so you didn't actually get independent verification for that obe world tour you planned out before. And you don't class anything as an obe experience unless it has an independent witness to verify it.

In the example you give with the boys from your class. It is an interesting story but most of this can actually be guessed(or subconsciously known). Guessing what the locals drink would not be too difficult(especially as most kids litter and drink the same stuff and brag about what they drink and how much etc(and their vehicles etc)), most kids also pick a favourite beer or spirit and stick with their favorites. So if you had been their teacher its fair to say you could've heard what they had been drinking at other times, in the same way you over heard of them talking about having a camp out in the first place. So this can be held in the subconscious.

Same with what they were wearing. Most of my friends back when I was a kid drinking out in the bush wore the same things. We didn't dress fancy. It basically consisted of black jeans, black desert boots(aka db's), black shirts and flannos. This info could also easily be known because back then schools didn't have to wear uniforms. So if it was like my old high school you got to know what other people wore. And depending on town size(you've said you lived in a smaller town?) it wouldn't be hard to know that either.

So I wouldn't say it was statistically impossible. The mind is a very powerful thing, you'd be surprised what the subconscious remembers. And you can call it evidence of a scientific nature but it doesn't really count as independent evidence because of the relationship between you and the young boys. The same can pretty much be said with the Canadian story. The car part is interesting but unless we know exactly what directions she gave you we cant tell if its a memory generated experience.

Basically Mr Walker you have given us some examples and considering you are only one of many many many people who claim to be able to do similar things(I mean we have a few on just this site alone), don't you think it would've been proven by now.As you said a simple test would prove it but no one has done that yet. If they did they would be at least a million dollars richer from Randi alone and they would go into the history books.

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Obeing is a verifiable physical ability of humanity. Reasoned thus. I am human.  I can do it and have it clearly objectively and indendenlty verified. Thus anyone should have the potential to do it also.

I believe in out of body experiences.. but I believe they are out of body dreaming.

And I don't know if I would class it as being independently verified when you are using your own students. I mean whos to say the Canadian girl wasn't just agreeing with you to make the teacher happy. So you have to trust what she is saying in the first place which means imo it isn't really independent. You potentially have a student who could be wanting to simply please the teacher by saying they were correct. I cant word it well but you understand what I mean. Sometimes people would rather just go along with someone than make them feel awkward. So I think that must be taken into account.

Anyway I'm glad to read that you believe its only a true obe if its independently verified.

But I think 'independent' should mean not friends, family or students to be honest. These people are too close to the ober to really class them as being independent.

Edited by Kazahel, 27 March 2013 - 10:17 AM.


#37    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM

View PostKazahel, on 27 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Ok so you didn't actually get independent verification for that obe world tour you planned out before. And you don't class anything as an obe experience unless it has an independent witness to verify it.

In the example you give with the boys from your class. It is an interesting story but most of this can actually be guessed(or subconsciously known). Guessing what the locals drink would not be too difficult(especially as most kids litter and drink the same stuff and brag about what they drink and how much etc(and their vehicles etc)), most kids also pick a favourite beer or spirit and stick with their favorites. So if you had been their teacher its fair to say you could've heard what they had been drinking at other times, in the same way you over heard of them talking about having a camp out in the first place. So this can be held in the subconscious.

Same with what they were wearing. Most of my friends back when I was a kid drinking out in the bush wore the same things. We didn't dress fancy. It basically consisted of black jeans, black desert boots(aka db's), black shirts and flannos. This info could also easily be known because back then schools didn't have to wear uniforms. So if it was like my old high school you got to know what other people wore. And depending on town size(you've said you lived in a smaller town?) it wouldn't be hard to know that either.

So I wouldn't say it was statistically impossible. The mind is a very powerful thing, you'd be surprised what the subconscious remembers. And you can call it evidence of a scientific nature but it doesn't really count as independent evidence because of the relationship between you and the young boys. The same can pretty much be said with the Canadian story. The car part is interesting but unless we know exactly what directions she gave you we cant tell if its a memory generated experience.

Basically Mr Walker you have given us some examples and considering you are only one of many many many people who claim to be able to do similar things(I mean we have a few on just this site alone), don't you think it would've been proven by now.As you said a simple test would prove it but no one has done that yet. If they did they would be at least a million dollars richer from Randi alone and they would go into the history books.



I believe in out of body experiences.. but I believe they are out of body dreaming.

And I don't know if I would class it as being independently verified when you are using your own students. I mean whos to say the Canadian girl wasn't just agreeing with you to make the teacher happy. So you have to trust what she is saying in the first place which means imo it isn't really independent. You potentially have a student who could be wanting to simply please the teacher by saying they were correct. I cant word it well but you understand what I mean. Sometimes people would rather just go along with someone than make them feel awkward. So I think that must be taken into account.

Anyway I'm glad to read that you believe its only a true obe if its independently verified.

But I think 'independent' should mean not friends, family or students to be honest. These people are too close to the ober to really class them as being independent.
You believe as you like, but if you can accept that I can precisely describe what 12 different males are wearing, and what each is drinking, from my bed while asleep 20 kilometres away from them, plus all the other details I mentioned  merely by coincidence /guessing etc., then I think it is you who is having trouble accepting reality.

The statistical probability of such a thing is far less likely than that it was simply an extension of my consciousness. This is particularly so when it is only one of many such  experiences verified via witnesses or investigation.

Whethr you accept my word for it or not, I know that there is no way i could have, or should have, been able to know those details And the case of the cadillac is even more striking. It was impossible for me to have known about that car, under the tarpaulin in a barn half a world away, yet I described it in detail, from the colours the upholstery through to the chrome detailing etc. I didnt know what  make and model of car it was because I am not that familiar with american cars from the fifties, but I could describe it in precise and correct detail. The girl  (about 17) was simply shocked. She went into detail about the car; how her dad had purchased it as her graduation present form her high school, and how they were going to work together on it to restore it after her year in australia No she had no reason to lie or make up a story and few people could think that fast on their feet; but i agree, if you absolutely refuse ot believe something is possible, you can and will always find excuses and justifications to validate that disbelief.

And i actually did get "indpendent verification" for my 'world tour" but it took time. As a part of it i flew over easter island and took a good look at the staues there. Many years later I saw a news piece about them. I was disappointed to see that the statues looked quite different in real life to what I had seen inmy OBE.

There were a lot more standing and they all had funny bits on their head.s This was different from my images of them. Then at the end of the newsreel, it explained that backin the fifties no one knew that these statues were meant to have hats on them.  In the time betwen when I visited them and when the newsreel was filmed not only had many of the staues been righted and restored but their hats, which had ben lying around the site had been replaced on their heads. When i visited the site it would have looked just as I saw it  with far less statues and no hats on the top of them.

Ps, and very sincerely, If i was asked to prove this by experimentation for a million dollars, I wouldnt. i would not even own up to this in public, except with people who know me well and can trust me. My own experience is tha this is not always a positive ability. I have lost friends, had people physically run away from me, been cursed and abused,  and even had the police called in as a young teenager, when I have shared convincing evidences of things i have encountered during Obes.

When you know things you can not and should not know about people, and like you they disbelieve in obeing, they believ other things about you. This is very serious as /for a teenager . Less so as a well respected adult, but still not something I am comfortable with everyone in my real life knowing. My mother had a similar ability, which my father knew about, but I didnt find out about until i was over forty, because she never really talked about it, but just made use of it.

My work colleagues/ fellow teachers enjoy my ability to find lost objects, but are really quite concerned at the thought that I might intrude, even accidentally, into their homes or social events while I am home sleeping. In general I would never do that deliberately,  anymore than I would enter another person's home uninvited physically, but sometimes it does happen  before I have my subconscious completely under my conscious mind's control.
I once wandered into a female coleagues bedroom during what i thought was a lucid dream, and noticed she was wearing some very distinctive male boxer shorts to bed. Knowing her well for years I risked asking her why she was wearing these (explaining how i ha d "dreamed" of her wearing them.)
She explained that her partner was away fishing in the Northern Territory for a few months and she was wearing his boxer shorts to feel closer to him  And no, I had no idea her partner wore boxer shorts, let alone the distinctive motif on them. I've never been to her house in physical form.

She still tells this story at staff shows and explains how she now always checks at night to see if she can detect some form of psychic intrusion before going to bed. She took it with good humour but was amazed that I could describe exactly what she was wearing to bed on that night,  from a dream.  I did then explain about obeing and how sometimes i am not sure, until i can verify, whether some thing is imagination or real. Verification comes by finding that what you have observed, exactly and precisely correlates with the reality of the object or person being observed, when there is no physical way you could have otherwise known.

I take a lot of your points into consideration. They seem reasonable until you look at the actual background.  For example i do  not drink and have not for over 40 years. I do not attend school or private functions where alcohol is served  This is a private health and ethical decision and I dont expect others to be non drinkers, but it means  I haven't got a clue what people drink and wouldn't know what beers or wines were even sold or available today. Also at my age, and given my old world conservatism, I do not have the sort of relationship with teenagers where they would normally discuss their drinking habits with me. This was a specific experimental occasion. Even so, it was embarassing, because a lot of their conversation got very personal and specific about people and especially girls,  as they got drunker, and I had to  censor a lot of it  We agreed that I wouldn't talk to anyone about their conversations, if they didnt tell anyone about how i had observed them from above.

And our students do wear uniforms. While I might see them very rarely in casual clothes  especaily more formal clothing, there is no way I could know or predict what outfit  each might wear on any given night, but I agree that all of these points require conscious consideration in seeking other solutions or explanations.
Independent only requires another separate mind and set of senses for observation, to establish  if your own observations are objectively accurate, and not confined to your own mind alone.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 March 2013 - 12:55 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#38    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostKazahel, on 27 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Ok so you didn't actually get independent verification for that obe world tour you planned out before. And you don't class anything as an obe experience unless it has an independent witness to verify it.
In the example you give with the boys from your class. It is an interesting story but most of this can actually be guessed(or subconsciously known). Guessing what the locals drink would not be too difficult(especially as most kids litter and drink the same stuff and brag about what they drink and how much etc(and their vehicles etc)), most kids also pick a favourite beer or spirit and stick with their favorites. So if you had been their teacher its fair to say you could've heard what they had been drinking at other times, in the same way you over heard of them talking about having a camp out in the first place. So this can be held in the subconscious.
Same with what they were wearing. Most of my friends back when I was a kid drinking out in the bush wore the same things. We didn't dress fancy. It basically consisted of black jeans, black desert boots(aka db's), black shirts and flannos. This info could also easily be known because back then schools didn't have to wear uniforms. So if it was like my old high school you got to know what other people wore. And depending on town size(you've said you lived in a smaller town?) it wouldn't be hard to know that either.
So I wouldn't say it was statistically impossible. The mind is a very powerful thing, you'd be surprised what the subconscious remembers. And you can call it evidence of a scientific nature but it doesn't really count as independent evidence because of the relationship between you and the young boys. The same can pretty much be said with the Canadian story. The car part is interesting but unless we know exactly what directions she gave you we cant tell if its a memory generated experience.
Basically Mr Walker you have given us some examples and considering you are only one of many many many people who claim to be able to do similar things(I mean we have a few on just this site alone), don't you think it would've been proven by now.As you said a simple test would prove it but no one has done that yet. If they did they would be at least a million dollars richer from Randi alone and they would go into the history books.

I believe in out of body experiences.. but I believe they are out of body dreaming.
And I don't know if I would class it as being independently verified when you are using your own students. I mean whos to say the Canadian girl wasn't just agreeing with you to make the teacher happy. So you have to trust what she is saying in the first place which means imo it isn't really independent. You potentially have a student who could be wanting to simply please the teacher by saying they were correct. I cant word it well but you understand what I mean. Sometimes people would rather just go along with someone than make them feel awkward. So I think that must be taken into account.
Anyway I'm glad to read that you believe its only a true obe if its independently verified.
But I think 'independent' should mean not friends, family or students to be honest. These people are too close to the ober to really class them as being independent.
You believe as you like, but if you can accept that I can precisely describe what 12 different males are wearing, and what each is drinking, from my bed while asleep 20 kilometres away from them, plus all the other details I mentioned  merely by coincidence /guessing etc., then I think it is you who is having trouble accepting reality.
The statistical probability of such a thing is far less likely than that it was simply an extension of my consciousness. This is particularly so when it is only one of many such  experiences verified via witnesses or investigation.
Whethr you accept my word for it or not, I know that there is no way i could have, or should have, been able to know those details And the case of the cadillac is even more striking. It was impossible for me to have known about that car, under the tarpaulin in a barn half a world away, yet I described it in detail, from the colours the upholstery through to the chrome detailing etc. I didnt know what  make and model of car it was because I am not that familiar with american cars from the fifties, but I could describe it in precise and correct detail. The girl  (about 17) was simply shocked. She went into detail about the car; how her dad had purchased it as her graduation present form her high school, and how they were going to work together on it to restore it after her year in australia No she had no reason to lie or make up a story and few people could think that fast on their feet; but i agree, if you absolutely refuse ot believe something is possible, you can and will always find excuses and justifications to validate that disbelief.
And i actually did get "indpendent verification" for my 'world tour" but it took time. As a part of it i flew over easter island and took a good look at the staues there. Many years later I saw a news piece about them. I was disappointed to see that the statues looked quite different in real life to what I had seen inmy OBE.
There were a lot more standing and they all had funny bits on their head.s This was different from my images of them. Then at the end of the newsreel, it explained that backin the fifties no one knew that these statues were meant to have hats on them.  In the time betwen when I visited them and when the newsreel was filmed not only had many of the staues been righted and restored but their hats, which had ben lying around the site had been replaced on their heads. When i visited the site it would have looked just as I saw it  with far less statues and no hats on the top of them.
Ps, and very sincerely, If i was asked to prove this by experimentation for a million dollars, I wouldnt. i would not even own up to this in public, except with people who know me well and can trust me. My own experience is tha this is not always a positive ability. I have lost friends, had people physically run away from me, been cursed and abused,  and even had the police called in as a young teenager, when I have shared convincing evidences of things i have encountered during Obes.
When you know things you can not and should not know about people, and like you they disbelieve in obeing, they believ other things about you. This is very serious as /for a teenager . Less so as a well respected adult, but still not something I am comfortable with everyone in my real life knowing. My mother had a similar ability, which my father knew about, but I didnt find out about until i was over forty, because she never really talked about it, but just made use of it.
My work colleagues/ fellow teachers enjoy my ability to find lost objects, but are really quite concerned at the thought that I might intrude, even accidentally, into their homes or social events while I am home sleeping. In general I would never do that deliberately,  anymore than I would enter another person's home uninvited physically, but sometimes it does happen  before I have my subconscious completely under my conscious mind's control.
I once wandered into a female coleagues bedroom during what i thought was a lucid dream, and noticed she was wearing some very distinctive male boxer shorts to bed. Knowing her well for years I risked asking her why she was wearing these (explaining how i ha d "dreamed" of her wearing them.)
She explained that her partner was away fishing in the Northern Territory for a few months and she was wearing his boxer shorts to feel closer to him  And no, I had no idea her partner wore boxer shorts, let alone the distinctive motif on them. I've never been to her house in physical form.
She still tells this story at staff shows and explains how she now always checks at night to see if she can detect some form of psychic intrusion before going to bed. She took it with good humour but was amazed that I could describe exactly what she was wearing to bed on that night,  from a dream.  I did then explain about obeing and how sometimes i am not sure, until i can verify, whether some thing is imagination or real. Verification comes by finding that what you have observed, exactly and precisely correlates with the reality of the object or person being observed, when there is no physical way you could have otherwise known.
I take a lot of your points into consideration. They seem reasonable until you look at the actual background.  For example i do  not drink and have not for over 40 years. I do not attend school or private functions where alcohol is served  This is a private health and ethical decision and I dont expect others to be non drinkers, but it means  I haven't got a clue what people drink and wouldn't know what beers or wines were even sold or available today. Also at my age, and given my old world conservatism, I do not have the sort of relationship with teenagers where they would normally discuss their drinking habits with me. This was a specific experimental occasion. Even so, it was embarassing, because a lot of their conversation got very personal and specific about people and especially girls,  as they got drunker, and I had to  censor a lot of it  We agreed that I wouldn't talk to anyone about their conversations, if they didnt tell anyone about how i had observed them from above.
And our students do wear uniforms. While I might see them very rarely in casual clothes  especaily more formal clothing, there is no way I could know or predict what outfit  each might wear on any given night, but I agree that all of these points require conscious consideration in seeking other solutions or explanations.
Independent only requires another separate mind and set of senses for observation, to establish  if your own observations are objectively accurate, and not confined to your own mind alone.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#39    Kazahel

Kazahel

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:35 AM

Why did you post it twice? Anyway..

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

You believe as you like, but if you can accept that I can precisely describe what 12 different males are wearing, and what each is drinking, from my bed while asleep 20 kilometres away from them, plus all the other details I mentioned  merely by coincidence /guessing etc., then I think it is you who is having trouble accepting reality.

The statistical probability of such a thing is far less likely than that it was simply an extension of my consciousness. This is particularly so when it is only one of many such  experiences verified via witnesses or investigation.

Whethr you accept my word for it or not, I know that there is no way i could have, or should have, been able to know those details

It's not that I don't accept reality, its that I dont take others stories as a truth. And I believe that most of the details you are speaking of could be picked up during class time with them. So you might not be aware that you're consciously listening into their latest drinking stories about who drunk how much, which girl they'd like to and who has the best V8 etc etc. And this info is just waiting in the subconscious. So if you were there teacher then this must come into consideration.

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

The girl  (about 17) was simply shocked. She went into detail about the car; how her dad had purchased it as her graduation present form her high school, and how they were going to work together on it to restore it after her year in australia No she had no reason to lie or make up a story and few people could think that fast on their feet; but i agree, if you absolutely refuse ot believe something is possible, you can and will always find excuses and justifications to validate that disbelief.

The same can be said for you if you refuse to believe something is possible. I explained that she might of embellished the truth about the car because you were her teacher. It's almost like giving the teacher an apple. So using students to verify experiences is like having your boss ask you for a favour.

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Ps, and very sincerely, If i was asked to prove this by experimentation for a million dollars, I wouldnt. i would not even own up to this in public, except with people who know me well and can trust me. My own experience is tha this is not always a positive ability. I have lost friends, had people physically run away from me, been cursed and abused,  and even had the police called in as a young teenager, when I have shared convincing evidences of things i have encountered during Obes.

I've read before you typed about the young girls at the slumber party. And I think it wouldn't of mattered what you said to them, a young girl would still most likely call the police after the neighbours boy tells them details about their slumber party(correct or not). So I wouldn't hold that as being verified because of their reaction or because of police involvement. A young girl who perhaps disliked you would agree with anything to get the creepy neighbour away from them. No offence but you understand what I mean. You cant claim its truly verified going from the reactions of teenage girls and them involving police.

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

My work colleagues/ fellow teachers enjoy my ability to find lost objects,

Finding objects it just a matter of knowing a persons basic routine. They pretty much always lose the object somewhere along the way.

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I once wandered into a female coleagues bedroom during what i thought was a lucid dream, and noticed she was wearing some very distinctive male boxer shorts to bed. Knowing her well for years I risked asking her why she was wearing these (explaining how i ha d "dreamed" of her wearing them.)
She explained that her partner was away fishing in the Northern Territory for a few months and she was wearing his boxer shorts to feel closer to him  And no, I had no idea her partner wore boxer shorts, let alone the distinctive motif on them. I've never been to her house in physical form.

She still tells this story at staff shows and explains how she now always checks at night to see if she can detect some form of psychic intrusion before going to bed. She took it with good humour but was amazed that I could describe exactly what she was wearing to bed on that night,  from a dream.  I did then explain about obeing and how sometimes i am not sure, until i can verify, whether some thing is imagination or real.

This part somewhat makes me cringe(well maybe she cringed is what I'm getting at). You see when you tell someone a dream like that the first thing she will think is that you are thinking about her(which is most likely true..). And having her agree that she was wearing her partners boxers could simply be seen as an embellishment of truth in order to reinforce her status as taken. And by her telling this story to other staff is perhaps not such a good thing. Then you telling her afterwards about obeing would just be seen as a way to cover an advance that was declined.  Also if you knew her well for years as you said, then its hard to believe that you couldn't of heard somewhere along the lines about her partner being away(so subconscious info again).  

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

I take a lot of your points into consideration. They seem reasonable until you look at the actual background.  For example i do  not drink and have not for over 40 years. I do not attend school or private functions where alcohol is served  This is a private health and ethical decision and I dont expect others to be non drinkers, but it means  I haven't got a clue what people drink and wouldn't know what beers or wines were even sold or available today.

If you have a tv you would know and like I said your mind would only have to overhear what they talked about in class to recreate the experience(to gain info).

View PostMr Walker, on 27 March 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Also at my age, and given my old world conservatism, I do not have the sort of relationship with teenagers where they would normally discuss their drinking habits with me. This was a specific experimental occasion. Even so, it was embarassing, because a lot of their conversation got very personal and specific about people and especially girls,  as they got drunker, and I had to  censor a lot of it  We agreed that I wouldn't talk to anyone about their conversations, if they didnt tell anyone about how i had observed them from above.

Well you had enough of a relationship to bring up OBE and to entertain the idea with them(as with the Canadian girl). It's not exactly a normal school subject(well I never talked about it in class with teachers).

And you know the underlined part sounds pretty dodgy don't ya.  I can understand you not going for the million. I'm glad it was a once off.

Edited by Kazahel, 28 March 2013 - 01:39 AM.


#40    Mr Walker

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostKazahel, on 28 March 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Why did you post it twice? Anyway..



It's not that I don't accept reality, its that I dont take others stories as a truth. And I believe that most of the details you are speaking of could be picked up during class time with them. So you might not be aware that you're consciously listening into their latest drinking stories about who drunk how much, which girl they'd like to and who has the best V8 etc etc. And this info is just waiting in the subconscious. So if you were there teacher then this must come into consideration.



The same can be said for you if you refuse to believe something is possible. I explained that she might of embellished the truth about the car because you were her teacher. It's almost like giving the teacher an apple. So using students to verify experiences is like having your boss ask you for a favour.



I've read before you typed about the young girls at the slumber party. And I think it wouldn't of mattered what you said to them, a young girl would still most likely call the police after the neighbours boy tells them details about their slumber party(correct or not). So I wouldn't hold that as being verified because of their reaction or because of police involvement. A young girl who perhaps disliked you would agree with anything to get the creepy neighbour away from them. No offence but you understand what I mean. You cant claim its truly verified going from the reactions of teenage girls and them involving police.



Finding objects it just a matter of knowing a persons basic routine. They pretty much always lose the object somewhere along the way.



This part somewhat makes me cringe(well maybe she cringed is what I'm getting at). You see when you tell someone a dream like that the first thing she will think is that you are thinking about her(which is most likely true..). And having her agree that she was wearing her partners boxers could simply be seen as an embellishment of truth in order to reinforce her status as taken. And by her telling this story to other staff is perhaps not such a good thing. Then you telling her afterwards about obeing would just be seen as a way to cover an advance that was declined.  Also if you knew her well for years as you said, then its hard to believe that you couldn't of heard somewhere along the lines about her partner being away(so subconscious info again).  



If you have a tv you would know and like I said your mind would only have to overhear what they talked about in class to recreate the experience(to gain info).



Well you had enough of a relationship to bring up OBE and to entertain the idea with them(as with the Canadian girl). It's not exactly a normal school subject(well I never talked about it in class with teachers).

And you know the underlined part sounds pretty dodgy don't ya.  I can understand you not going for the million. I'm glad it was a once off.
You must have a very differnt understanding of human nature than I do. I dont find people to be as you describe then in these scenarios.  No one has ever tried to validate or confirm something I describe to them. they are generally more shocked disturbed or concerned. Basically you chose not to believe, and that is your prerogative. I havent got that luxury because i am involved in all these things and know the full contextual surroundings of each incident.

Here is one more example. A year 9 girl says she has lost her mobile phone and can i locate it for her. I say (just knowing this to be true) "It's in a red bag on the lockers in that room.' (and point to the room) She turns to her friend and says something like,"You lying b****." Turns out her friend has hidden it in her own bag and denied any knowledge (probably but not certainly as a joke) Now i dont know any of this background. I dont know there is a red bag  on the lockers from being in the room (which i have not) but I just "know " that the girl's phone is in a red bag ( which she realises is her friends)  on top of the lockers in a nearby room. Heres another. I congratulate a work colleague (publicaly in the staff room) on being pregnant (her first time) I know she is pregnant and I  just assume everyone else must. She gets very angry and upset.

Her friend tells me later that only her husband and she knew she was pregnant. She had just found out and hadn't even told her parents yet.  Tragically a little later I "know" that she will lose this child as a still birth.  I cant bring myself (rightly or wrongly) to tell her so. She loses the child. Happily, she now has two young children; a boy and a girl, and all are happy and healthy.

Ps i  having a number of anoying glitches like that. I cant quote separate parts of a post and respond individually to them and  a little tag often comes up saying "done but with errors. It is not reading java or some script correctly at times.hadnt realised it had posted twice. I tried to post once and ten minutes later the post was still saving. So i  saved and copied the lot, cancelled it and posted in the box below. The first post must have saved despite me cancelling it. Since they remodelled the site i have been

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#41    Kazahel

Kazahel

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 28 March 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

You must have a very differnt understanding of human nature than I do. I dont find people to be as you describe then in these scenarios.

You just might not see it, or want to.

And these new examples of finding things don't have anything to do with obe.  I've been after a good reason(scientifically backed data)as to why anyone would believe that obe is not just a lucid dream. So I want to know why it would not be common sense to think of obes as lucid dreams. And so far I haven't seen anything to change what I said before. So we can listen to personal experiences all day but in the end that's all they are(I have them too). So I'm after scientific studies that would make me lean towards believing obes are not lucid dreams and that people can really obe in the real world(not a memory/dream one). I'm still testing things myself and next time I obe I will simply do a reality test. This should give me a good idea but sometimes even reading a clock radio can read the same(its rare but it can happen).

But in regards to the finding objects, you wouldn't want to test that out with me would you? I made a thread awhile ago when I kept reading how good everyone was at this.

You can find it here.. http://www.unexplain...pic=188537&st=0

I think its along the same lines. You are welcome to have a go, just give me a few moments to place something in there. And I promise you I will not change what will be in the box. I give my word. The boxes(drawers) have never moved and are still there. I'll set it up with an object. I might bring out this old thread cause it was kinda fun.

( lol, and I still use that guitar pick.)


*Ok something mysterious is in the box!

Edited by Kazahel, 28 March 2013 - 01:14 PM.


#42    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:16 AM

A glove.

Now that s not using Obe. Just the first thing that popped into my head.

I am not going to intentionally try and obe to your place, wherever it maybe, and observe what is in the box, but if it happens then I will let you know the result.

Ps does a rubics cube (or similar pattern of squares) mean anything to you at the moment?

Or a small bright red object, maybe a child's toy of some sort? Probably not, but as I read your post i got flashes of those three things.

Edited by Mr Walker, 30 March 2013 - 02:22 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#43    Kazahel

Kazahel

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:01 AM

Thanks Mr Walker for having a go. I like this experiment and find it interesting because I know people cant cheat(so friends or sock puppets cant bs the forum). I'll post what it is later in case others want to have a go and to give time for any dreams/obe/astral/whatever might occur that could give an answer.

I think it would be best to post in the thread I made for this experiment.   http://www.unexplain...pic=188537&st=0

Edited by Kazahel, 30 March 2013 - 03:03 AM.





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