198 replies to this topic

[and then]

Rlyeh, on 09 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Nothing whatsoever to do with the question.

I immediately took the gist of his statement.  He is saying that if one believes in Jesus then His word verifies the existence of said angels.  Now if a person doesn't believe in Jesus then the rest of the issue is pointless anyway.  Angels have been widely written about and glamorized but they really are only fellow servants to our Creator.  They are His messengers.  They watch and protect but they are NOT deity.

[papadad]

joc, on 17 January 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

It is more important to live connected to god, with him in your heart mind and environment, than to live by the bible, or the words of any preacher. An adult person who has to rely on a book, or someone in authority, to tell him what is right and wrong and how to behave, is already in big trouble.

my feelings exactly,couldnt have stated it better!

[Helen of Annoy]

Inspired with all the posts so far, I'd like to add that it's simple for Christians, the angels are real and need no scientific proof since faith is above science. Faith seeking hard proof is not the faith but a theory.
Sceptic is, of course, entitled to not believe in Christ and then consequentially not in the spiritual nature of angels, but it’s impossible to convincingly write off all the reports of angel-like beings, whose existence also predates Christianity.

Great portion of my nation’s folklore is about “vile”. Literal translation is “fairies”, but that is actually wrong, I know of no suitable English word. Vile are material beings of immense wisdom and stunning powers, who communicate with “ordinary” people when they see it fit. Descriptions of their appearance and actions match later Christian visualization of angels.

Since both the old stories and very fresh reports of both vile and angels are so numerous, and in some instances traces of their actions are quite provable, I can’t write them off as imagination, exaggeration or mental illness.
Certainly a portion were lies, hallucinations or skewed perception, but I know of few instances that were related by trustworthy, sane people. If I could brainwash myself into distrusting them, I could live peaceful life of a sceptic.  
But I can’t say something didn’t happen just because it’s not plain enough. At the same time I have no true faith. So I do question the true nature of angels, but I have no problems with accepting that there are such beings that communicate with men.

[Mr Walker]

Like any sapient being you encounter, you must make of them what logic and rational thought informs you to. I have only encountered positive helpful and protective ones, who patiently, firmly, and consistently, take time and effort to interact with me and to help me in many ways. I respond in kind, to the way they treat me. I have learned to trust them and their word and, over time, to respond instantly to their words and warnngs. That has saved my life (and that of my wife) on numerous occasions.

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

.. it's simple for Christians, the angels are real and need no scientific proof since faith is above science. Faith seeking hard proof is not the faith but a theory...

Ah but angels appear throughout the bible in the ancient Jewish Old Testament long before Jesus arrived.
For example this one was in human form-  “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him" (Exodus 23:20)

Think of the Bible as a catalogue of close encounters with assorted beings like that..

[Helen of Annoy]

Crikey, on 19 January 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Ah but angels appear throughout the bible in the ancient Jewish Old Testament long before Jesus arrived.
For example this one was in human form-  “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him" (Exodus 23:20)

Think of the Bible as a catalogue of close encounters with assorted beings like that..

Like I just said, angel-like beings predate Christianity. Not only that, but they are also part of beliefs that had no connection to ME cultures and their testaments.

Still that shouldn’t be a problem for a Christian, since God according to their belief obviously existed before Christ too, so angels existed before Christ too. Before incorporation of Christ, to be more precise, since Christ is God (according to Christian belief) so he's not limited by time frames.

Maybe I'm missing the point of your post?

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

....since Christ is God (according to Christian belief)....

Nah, he wasn't God, check it-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

[Kludge808]

Anyone who knows me knows about the tight bond between my daughter and myself.  Since before I adopted her, I've called hr Angel for the simple reason that, for me, she is one - an Earth Angel and my Guardian Angel.  So, does her being human make her less an angel?  Not in my book.

[Helen of Annoy]

Crikey, on 19 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Nah, he wasn't God, check it-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

You see, I’m not here for theological debate and I thought I made it clear I was not a Christian. I have no true faith, so claiming I was Christian would be hypocrisy.

In hope that I was clear enough, can we go back on angel topic now?  
I see them present in various cultures, not limited to Old or New Testament places or times, therefore independent of anyone's personal idea of Holy Trinity, including complete lack of such idea.



Edit: damn, I’m slow sometimes... just dawned on me... are you implying Jesus was another of angel-like beings? Why not, but that wouldn’t prove or disprove their existence, only add or take away a portion of argument, while sounding offensive to those who believe. This is why I wouldn’t focus on Jesus, especially since there are plenty of examples that won’t take discussion into religious confrontation.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 19 January 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[SarahAvery]

if you belive in the bible at all or anything close to the bible then this is a no brainer....of course they are, do you have to have evidence to believe in everything that you believe in? no
.-just my opinion

[Paranoid Android]

Crikey, on 19 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Nah, he wasn't God, check it-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

*coughcoughtrinitycoughcough*

Yeah, this thread is about angels so I won't derail it by writing further about Jesus

~ Regards,

[Crikey]

Helen of Annoy, on 19 January 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

You see, I’m not here for theological debate and I thought I made it clear I was not a Christian....

But you started a debate by mistakenly saying Christians think Jesus was God, and I simply corrected you by pointing out that they don't (apart from a few hardcore fundies maybe).
Jesus himself said he wasn't  God, so there's nothing to debate anyway..

[Mr Walker]

Crikey, on 19 January 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

Nah, he wasn't God, check it-

Jesus said - "I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )
Jesus said - "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)
High Priest asks - "Are you the Son of God?" Jesus replies - "I am" (Mark 14:61)
Jesus said - "I say nothing of my own accord, i only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)
"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

Ah perhaps because god is a trinity, as indeed are human beings.

And dont forget, in christian theology, on earth jesus was the literal son of god conceived by the holy spirit in mary and he was talking to men about himslef on earth. That doesnt mean jesus was the son o\f god in heaven. Rather the bible says christ was the word, and the word WAS god, and there is a strong suggestion th t christ was the part of god which created the earth (again in literal bible intepretaions)  Certainly i the biblical story, christ and the holy spirit were with god, and a part of god, when the bible describes the original creation. Again, christ returns in "angelic form" in revelation for the final conflict. Not the son of god then but a physical extension or avatar of god Bu the bible explains this is the same beingwho inhabited christs body on earth as a man, Mortal man possessed by the spirit of god, or god  maifested in man form, is open to debate from biblical texts.

[Mr Walker]

Crikey, on 19 January 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

But you started a debate by mistakenly saying Christians think Jesus was God, and I simply corrected you by pointing out that they don't (apart from a few hardcore fundies maybe).
Jesus himself said he wasn't  God, so there's nothing to debate anyway..

Actually most mainstream christians, including cathoics and church of england etc.,  whom i know, are trinitarians, and traditional christians, not fundamentalists and they have a trinitarian view of god. Christ is an integral part of god like the holy spirit and always has been. He is only the son of god while a human being otherwise he is god. The wiki pedia article on this is worth a read for a basic knowledge of the concept
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

[joc]

Kludge808, on 19 January 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Anyone who knows me knows about the tight bond between my daughter and myself.  Since before I adopted her, I've called hr Angel for the simple reason that, for me, she is one - an Earth Angel and my Guardian Angel.  So, does her being human make her less an angel?  Not in my book.

Well, actually yes...it does.  I'm sure she is quite angelic, but Angel angels are not Human angels...they are immortal beings with Fourth Dimensional bodies.   Your beautiful angelic daughter is a human with a three dimensional body.