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Are Jihadists damaging Islam's reputation?


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#76    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:05 AM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 04 March 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

But they wasted so much years of knowlegde by blasphemy. Leonard didnt dear realease his medical knowledge, nor did Galileo Galilei get much through, as he was ordered by the pope to drop the claims.

So christianity held Humanity back also...

Thats common mistake. Church was then like todays (kind of) peer review. So we can say that todays academics held science too.
Truth is that chatolic church was against some ideas. But you forget one thing. Protestantism is also Christhianity. When Galileo s idea was surpressed in todays Italy in Holland invited him to become a university proffesor.

We can also argue did/is army hold back progress.


Humanity needs to be ready for some idea. It has nothing with spirituality.
I can mentioned examples where idea first proposed didnt found fertile ground but later, same idea become well accepted.
Time of idea is crucial. Humans are something like hive mind.

Edited by the L, 04 March 2013 - 05:11 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#77    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 05:14 AM

This discussion seems to have devolved into "mine is better than yours, so nyah".  Might I remind everyone that this thread is about Islamic Jihadists.  It's not about any other religion, or which religion has done the best for our world.  If we took this path, we'd be arguing in never-ending circles bringing up what people of all different religions have and haven't done in the name of their belief/s over the past 2000 years or so.  So keep on topic, thanks.

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#78    Frank Merton

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:44 AM

Let's be honest: the turn of Islam has come and gone.  What we have now is a group of genuinely backward societies -- ethically, socially and technologically backward -- fighting a rearguard action to defend just another set of myths.


#79    odas

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

View Postthe L, on 03 March 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

Odas if you want to bring Europeans vs Islam in this debate few things to chek before you start.(If one could do it)

1. When Europeans hugged idea that Sun is in the center- Human become center of universe.
Europeans invented what we called Humanism.


2. You might read about Roman legacy. And Greek.
Even letters you type here is Roman(European) origin.




You are little Islamocentric. I dont remember that al-something discover evloution or gravity, or telescope or microscope...for example. Thins are not cut and dry. You took just German and French scientists and they alone could beat Islam scientists in their achivements.
What I dont like in Arabs caliphates was that they didnt built roads but mosqs. I wonder was that complex from European churches?

Also I would like that you mention one Islam philosopher who didnt "worship" European philosophers? When you found him tap my shoulder.
Yes, humanism was invented as an answer to the churches repression. Charters of rights and similar where introduced not to welcome other religions or races but to free own citizens of the church demagogie.
Now this happened historycly not to far ago. In this instance we should give islamic countries some time and support and it eill happen there too.
Otherwise you are far of by your historical facts.


#80    Godofcats

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:40 PM

Of course they are damaging the reputations of islam. People try to use those actions to tell people that that is how all muslims are or that's how all religious people act ignoring the majority.


#81    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 04 March 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Let's be honest: the turn of Islam has come and gone.  What we have now is a group of genuinely backward societies -- ethically, socially and technologically backward -- fighting a rearguard action to defend just another set of myths.
define .. backward " socially " and " ethnically " .. techonology backward i may understand .. and disagree on it
but be kind and explain to us what you mean the by other two

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#82    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

View Postodas, on 04 March 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Yes, humanism was invented as an answer to the churches repression. Charters of rights and similar where introduced not to welcome other religions or races but to free own citizens of the church demagogie.
Now this happened historycly not to far ago. In this instance we should give islamic countries some time and support and it eill happen there too.
Otherwise you are far of by your historical facts.

I dont know on what repression you talk about. You obviously have some esoteric knowledge of history. There is whole section on UM. Its called alternative history. I mostly dwell there.
Humanism was motor in 15/16 century during renaissance. It has more with Cicero then with Church.


Sorry Paranoid Android. Debate move further. Its something like comperative literature rather then "who has stronger daddy" debate.
Also if you study history then you must be objective. Im objective. I dont give credit to any religion more then it deserve.
Odas compared in a sense Christhianity with Orient. I gave him facts.

Edited by the L, 04 March 2013 - 08:27 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#83    AsteroidX

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 08:44 PM

Why was John Kerrys first international trip to Egypt to give the Muslim Brotherhood money. Who are the Jihadists today ?


#84    The Id3al Experience

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:23 AM

View Postthe L, on 04 March 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

Thats common mistake. Church was then like todays (kind of) peer review. So we can say that todays academics held science too.
Truth is that chatolic church was against some ideas. But you forget one thing. Protestantism is also Christhianity. When Galileo s idea was surpressed in todays Italy in Holland invited him to become a university proffesor.

We can also argue did/is army hold back progress.


Humanity needs to be ready for some idea. It has nothing with spirituality.
I can mentioned examples where idea first proposed didnt found fertile ground but later, same idea become well accepted.
Time of idea is crucial. Humans are something like hive mind.

charges made against Bruno by the Roman Inquisition:[18]
  • holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith and speaking against it and its ministers;
  • holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and Incarnation;
  • holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith pertaining to Jesus as Christ;
  • holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith regarding the virginity of Mary, mother of Jesus;
  • holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith about both Transubstantiation and Mass;
  • claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity;
Just holding opinions got you killed.

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#85    Santy

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:52 AM

It's a pity that this thread seems to provide an opportunity to run others down. I do not deny that it seems to be a good idea at times, but the basis for doing so could be ameliorated to some extent by more realistic outlooks.

One of the tenets is reputation. In general, religions do not have reputations. They are too fragmented and all embracing for the average. Factions can develop reputation, ie. Roman Catholicism and the sex scandals, or Methodists as prudes and so on. Reputations are better applied to people, perpetually purifying an institution by occasional resignations seems to satisfy the public.

The very ideas on which opinions are based, in the West, have been politically contrived at some time earlier, and only rarely contain a default concept which can be maintained. This may be true everywhere, I do not know.

An example of this is the already raised concept of a man having a beard. You could argue the default is having a beard, and for that matter, as long as it gets. Because when you were born a male, having a beard, eventually is the default situation. You have to be taught, on the basis of some other mans ideas, to cut it off, rendering you more womanly in the process.

The other side of the argument is supported by a different quality of truth, which contains it's own validity. That is that most men cut their beards off, which provides a benchmark for the very human trait of conformity. This being the case, it is proper that all men shift in favour of the benchmark. That is not to say that some other influential men may change the fashion tomorrow, and we will all be tripping over our faces.

I heard that a million Nazis were wrong, then a million mini car owners cannot be wrong!

At present, in the UK, I detect one or two overused statements from our house of forked tongues. One is that "We have to send out the message that........."
        "We have to learn lessons from this..............."
        "Bla bla bla, it is right that............"
They do not know the message they are sending out, but they sure ain't getting it. The public did not elect pupils, but provided Hansard. What is both a change, and right, must have always been wrong, earlier. What a mess, hardly a model for the world to look up to. This is what we now rely on, instead of religion.

The mish mash between politics and religion. It comes to knowing what politics is. Is it really the House of forked tongues?, or is it the way we conduct ourselves as a group?. Detachment of the two has to be induced in the mind, then maintained by an institution. The default situation for otherwise untutored humanity, is the mish mash. The separation is the fashion, because it is socially pragmatic, but again, someone in the past, decided this. Both concepts are true, but provide differing qualities of truth. Modern democracies still wrestle with the concept, if truth be known.

The Holy Koran was constructed by God. The Arabic language was also constructed by God in the process. If you are aghast at this, you should stop and wander why you do not know. Historians, long dead, have told your ancestors so. Millions of people, alive today will tell you it is so. What is the basis on which you want to dispute it? There isn't any evidence by which to dispute it. Are you going to say it never happened before? Or only once before? That it has never happened since? What evidence is that? The same is true of the moon landings.

The Dark ages were called the Dark ages with good reason. It wasn't an era of Black Magic or anything like that. It is an information black hole, about which we do not know anything about our ancestors. Precious little, anyway. When the Romans left, circa AD 420, Western information recording ceased, and was not re instituted for hundreds of years. Europe was in shock, dislocated, and completely self absorbed. The Romans though, in the meantime, were not. They did not disappear. They organised the withdrawal from the West and fortified themselves in the East, shifting their capital from Rome to Byzantium. The Roman Empire continued, without interruption to speak of, until the era of the Crusades. They maintained not only their own, but the knowledge from previous civilisations.

Islam, as far as we are aware, was born in the throes of this schism, AD620-AD640. All information recorded, as you would expect, was Islamic in origin. Not a shred was recorded in Europe. In my time, we have held our hands up and said we do not know. Pray tell me, What is some whizz kid who came from his mums tummy yesterday going to add to this? That he found a piece of parchment in Grandma's attic that was written 1400 years ago? Well hang onto it, we are going to need an awful lot of them!!

That the expansion of Islam, mostly within 120 years was the most rapid and profound event of expansion known, is still a comparative mystery, in terms of the achievements. It is important to note that Byzantium fell to them, because it put Islam in the driving seat of advancement, in as much as Byzantium's vast library came into their hands. The earlier contributor who would like to attest to the warlike nature of Islam has a point when it came to Inter-sect quarrels, which persist to this day. But there are problems, mostly through lack of information about their conduct of the expansion. The first problem is the speed of collapse of the opposition, which was extremely rapid, compounded by the relatively small population of the Arabic peninsular. It is now a better bet, that the "Conquered", went over to Islam, in the main, because they saw in it, a much better deal. Islamic ideals are not only what you are told they are, ie. Chopping off hands and heads. They also embrace the respecting of the ways of ordinary people. They are not too keen on profiting from others. They are comparatively excellent at providing pensions. When a worker is dislocated, his family have rights to accompany him at the employers cost, and so on. In a nutshell, they believed in workers rights, which was some kind of joke in the surrounding kingdoms. Whilst the rulers may well have wanted to put up a fight, when word spread about the better deal, their populations may not have been so forthcoming.

The instant horde of the Jihadist. It is an interesting proposition, which we cannot say is unlikely because it already happened at least once to Christians. On a short announcement by the Pope, a million agricultural workers dropped their ploughs and rushed off to Palestine. They never reached Palestine. They were slaughtered in short order by Seljuk Turkish cavalry. The bemused Turks didn't know why these hordes had turned up. Neither did the horde know where they were. Although it was the First Crusade, we are left wandering why it wasn't the last. That other early Crusades were successful, does not attest to the warlike nature of Islam. It is now thought that Baghdad and Egypt never even noticed them, it was the Christians who were making and kicking up more fuss which drew in Egypt. It won't have passed your attention that the Christians killed the occupants of Jerusalem when they took it, and that Islam spared the occupants when they took it back.  If you want the truth, the Crusades were instigated    in an attempt to stop Christian knights ravaging the countryside in Europe. The Pope more or less said so!



The untrained horde is a modern Army's dream. All you get is an aching forefinger and the loss of half your men. That reminds me, I must see to that broken fingernail.  With the horde, enthusiasm subverts the tactics. This was born out in the Korean war, when China was a flood with tears for their uncountable dead.

It is unlikely that many native English speakers have read the Holy Koran. It takes devotion to learn 7th century Arabic, so it is not very accessible to even Arabic speakers. There are multiple whammy's for translators, in as much as they are thinking differently to God in the 7th century, differently from the receptor tongue, differently to modern Arabic and that is before we approach the different letterforms, sounds styles and thought assumptions. The best way I can put it, it is akin to being schooled in English language, then being given the works of Shakespeare to read. You have new,  old words, ways of putting things, and new phrases. You have to rethink what is being said and so on, but their is also this familiarity, you recognise words, maybe spelt differently and so on.

What I am getting at, is that translated versions of the Holy Koran are the work of fallible men. As such, they should be read in light of this and self assurance isn't really justified.

That an Immam, or such will trigger, so to speak, a Jihad is interesting enough. It is God that will do so. Islam is not a hierarchical organisation. It is Western influences which try to engender this, for Islam. You cannot make deals with bosses when there isn't the organisation to support it.
Often an Immam is self appointed, self educated and revered, if such is the case in the very locale of his Mosque. Being a local figure, and in most communities, there being a dirth of information from further afield, the Mosque becomes a focal point for outside information, and the Immam, influential in the formation of views. If an Immam is so inclined, he can wind his congregation up, so there is prospect of riot by Friday night. Most often, everything looks better by Saturday morning, and there is the rest of the day to get on with. It would take the extremely extraordinary think alike capability to Inflame a Jihad, possibly the straw breaking the camels back in social conditions. Some people have attempted to instigate Jihads, but Moslems are not stupid, they can ascertain the instigators potential motives. The total mobilisation is perpetually in the future. Most of Islam are unaware of current Western arguments, nor would they care less if they were. For them, Islam is an automatic path on which they paste their lives, not some think tank for couch potatoes.

I know I tend to go on a bit. One last point. The most influential religious extremists, possibly one of the smallest and least discussed, are Christian religious extremists in America. Whilst, it seems to me, most are getting on with the day like everyone else, We have the multi billion dollar issue of funding for scientific research. What is the point of putting your hand in your pocket to research what cannot possibly exist? Well that is what is expected of them. A far cry from the "raghead" in the dessert with a pop gun. Bombers are a scourge on humanity. They know not whom, nor care whom they kill, but what they will never do, is kill everyone else. Like in America, only one in two hundred goes mad and kills 198.






#86    The Silver Thong

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:58 AM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 04 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:


define .. backward " socially " and " ethnically " .. techonology backward i may understand .. and disagree on it
but be kind and explain to us what you mean the by other two


All of Islam is on a Jihadists quest there is no question about it. Through immigration and through the womb Islam will take control. It must be stopped.

Jihadists are every where and no where. Laws must be in place to control islam as it is not peacefull. Backward yes as islam is so out dated where does one starte, ethical well honor killings covers both of those.  Sharia law is another example of the barberazim of the faith. Islam is a crime against humanity imho.

Qaddafi and his ilk seal it.  He states that immigration and out breeding the local the local population will win the Islam Jehadist agenda. Corrupt the government and vote in lol sharia law. You know what, it`s working.  Womens rights is disgusting in Mulsim nations, gay rights are a joke and Islam is a joke.

The entire Islamic so called nation of Jehadists is 400 years backwards. I go into a 7-11 and the guy calls me sir I know he means kafar or infidel.  The jehadist are on full scale war useing immigration and breeding allowed by weak western laws that need to establish a law of the land.

Ya blame youtube



I could post a hundred more

The brown shirts were not take seriously till it was to late and the so called radicals that Islam says are few is a complete lie. Islam is more dangerous the the conception of the nuclear bomb.


Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#87    Frank Merton

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:03 AM

Usually people who immigrate to a different country keep the language and culture of the old country for at most one generation.  The second generation may be bilingual and the third know a little of the old language, but by the fourth generation the immigrants are fully part of the new country.

I see that happening with VietKieu (overseas Vietnamese).  Many of the first generation still hates and actively works to overthrow the present Communist government here, the second generation wants to forget that and speaks good Vietnamese but better English.  Subsequent generations often marry outside the Vietnamese population and have poor Vietnamese.

Will that happen with immigrating Muslims?  I think probably so, although more slowly.  One of the things that keeps Islam strong is the willingness to severely persecute if not kill anyone who was born Muslim who begins to deviate or openly express doubts.  This kind of enforcement is not allowed in Western countries and when it is attempted it brings legal repercussions.

Young people tend to rebel against their elders anyway, and I can see young Muslims, especially in Europe, viewing many of the old customs and beliefs much the same way young Western Vietnamese view them, as not "with it" in the new country.


#88    The Silver Thong

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:18 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 March 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Usually people who immigrate to a different country keep the language and culture of the old country for at most one generation.  The second generation may be bilingual and the third know a little of the old language, but by the fourth generation the immigrants are fully part of the new country.

I see that happening with VietKieu (overseas Vietnamese).  Many of the first generation still hates and actively works to overthrow the present Communist government here, the second generation wants to forget that and speaks good Vietnamese but better English.  Subsequent generations often marry outside the Vietnamese population and have poor Vietnamese.

Will that happen with immigrating Muslims?  I think probably so, although more slowly.  One of the things that keeps Islam strong is the willingness to severely persecute if not kill anyone who was born Muslim who begins to deviate or openly express doubts.  This kind of enforcement is not allowed in Western countries and when it is attempted it brings legal repercussions.

Young people tend to rebel against their elders anyway, and I can see young Muslims, especially in Europe, viewing many of the old customs and beliefs much the same way young Western view them, as not "with it" in the new country.

Im not sure as I see it that way. Islam radicals use bombs, the so called jehadist. However its cultural jehad that is ment to win the war.

As an atheist I don`t like using a christian bais post but the math works. As an atheist I would rather the christian view than the islamist view of the future.



Vietnamese people had a very hard time and were devided between as far as a belief system goes, difficult.  I don`t post much anymore but really enjoy your addition to you being on UM.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 06 March 2013 - 06:21 AM.

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?

#89    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:03 AM

View PostThe Silver Thong, on 06 March 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

All of Islam is on a Jihadists quest there is no question about it. Through immigration and through the womb Islam will take control. It must be stopped.

Jihadists are every where and no where. Laws must be in place to control islam as it is not peacefull. Backward yes as islam is so out dated where does one starte, ethical well honor killings covers both of those.  Sharia law is another example of the barberazim of the faith. Islam is a crime against humanity imho.

Qaddafi and his ilk seal it.  He states that immigration and out breeding the local the local population will win the Islam Jehadist agenda. Corrupt the government and vote in lol sharia law. You know what, it`s working.  Womens rights is disgusting in Mulsim nations, gay rights are a joke and Islam is a joke.

The entire Islamic so called nation of Jehadists is 400 years backwards. I go into a 7-11 and the guy calls me sir I know he means kafar or infidel.  The jehadist are on full scale war useing immigration and breeding allowed by weak western laws that need to establish a law of the land.

Ya blame youtube



I could post a hundred more

The brown shirts were not take seriously till it was to late and the so called radicals that Islam says are few is a complete lie. Islam is more dangerous the the conception of the nuclear bomb.
i think this video is a joke .. along side with your post
everytime i ask for something logical some one post me a video of lunatic and shout !! this is islam !!
hope there is cure for islamophobia but there isn't it
i don't take my islam from a person on youtube .. am not that stupid

firstly .. muslims DO NOT WANT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD .. chill down with that
in muslim majority countries in middle east there is no sharia law except in " very " few ones
now if islam was that anxious to have sharia law wouldn't they apply it in their countries before they go to apply it in europe

secondly .. these muslims in in forgien countries are people just like they got the right to ask what the hell they want
it doesn't mean it's going to happen but they still citizans of those countries and have rights to ask for things
weather you like it or not

now thirdly and most importantly ... how on earth do you consider honor kill is backward " ethnically " ???!!
and what honor kill has to do with ethnic .. i asked this question for mr Frank so i think if some one should answer it should be him
aparently.. you got no idea what you talking about so i think you need to breath alittle i have no idea what you meant
or how honor kill and ethnic are related correct me if am wrong my english not perfect
but last time i checked ethnic means " certain race " now to say backward " ethnically " is to say they're backward race


more so .. did you know honor killing is prohibited by islam ? no of course you didn't
coz you don't wanna hear that you just wanna hear how bad islam is .. but never bothered to look into it
islam is not acts of individuals not everytime a muslim does something it is islamic laws
just like you got murderers we got murderers
so honor killing is not act of islam .. in fact it's prohibited by islam
bring me a prove from koran that it's actually allowed instead of empty words of hate

i think you need to calm down .. this islam phobia is not healthy
am willing to discuss with prove and disprove what you say more so
but am betting my money on you don't want that .. you just wanna shout ISLAM IS DANGEROUS
so have it your way

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 06 March 2013 - 08:08 AM.

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#90    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:07 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 March 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Usually people who immigrate to a different country keep the language and culture of the old country for at most one generation.  The second generation may be bilingual and the third know a little of the old language, but by the fourth generation the immigrants are fully part of the new country.

I see that happening with VietKieu (overseas Vietnamese).  Many of the first generation still hates and actively works to overthrow the present Communist government here, the second generation wants to forget that and speaks good Vietnamese but better English.  Subsequent generations often marry outside the Vietnamese population and have poor Vietnamese.

Will that happen with immigrating Muslims?  I think probably so, although more slowly.  One of the things that keeps Islam strong is the willingness to severely persecute if not kill anyone who was born Muslim who begins to deviate or openly express doubts.  This kind of enforcement is not allowed in Western countries and when it is attempted it brings legal repercussions.

Young people tend to rebel against their elders anyway, and I can see young Muslims, especially in Europe, viewing many of the old customs and beliefs much the same way young Western Vietnamese view them, as not "with it" in the new country.
want me to correct you ?
islam is the number one growing religion .. in few years it'll be quarter of the earth population if not bit more
so No islam is not falling out in number it is actually growing
i think you been misleaded on that info

http://en.wikipedia....pulation_growth

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great





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