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[Merged] Abortion and beliefs

atheist pro live abortion rights of the unborn

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#16    glorybebe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 02:19 AM

View PostJGirl, on 26 November 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

in my country abortion is neither illegal or evil. the so called unborn do not have rights as you suggest according to our law.
everything you have said in this post is your own interpretation and your own slant on how things should be. i would like to point out that you are a man as well, so in my opinion your attitude about a woman's body is irrelevant.
if your wife or significant other plans to abort 'your' child then you work it out between the two of you. the law, the church, the government have no business with that.

edit to add:
where i live abortion clinics are not a business. they are an extension of our health care system

I agree.  It is so easy to judge women and have no clue what was going on in their lives for them to even consider abortion.

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#17    JGirl

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 03:52 AM

View Postglorybebe, on 26 November 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

I agree.  It is so easy to judge women and have no clue what was going on in their lives for them to even consider abortion.
and in any case a woman should not have to justify to anyone why she chooses to not bring the pregnancy to term. i noticed when i googled this subject the only sites covering it are pro life sites and catholic news sites and the like.
also i found no further information on these 491 abortions that were apparently 'botched'
i seriously doubt it had anything to do with botching the surgery, yet we can never know that because that information is conveniently  not available.


#18    glorybebe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:05 AM

View PostJGirl, on 26 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

and in any case a woman should not have to justify to anyone why she chooses to not bring the pregnancy to term. i noticed when i googled this subject the only sites covering it are pro life sites and catholic news sites and the like.
also i found no further information on these 491 abortions that were apparently 'botched'
i seriously doubt it had anything to do with botching the surgery, yet we can never know that because that information is conveniently  not available.
Very convenient.  Not surprising, though, IMO.

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#19    Likely Guy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:16 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 25 November 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

...from 2000 to 2009, 491 babies have been born alive following a failed abortion procedure, and subsequently left to die. And those are only the ones that are recordedby Statistics Canada.
... These abortions are coded as P96.4 or ‘Termination of pregnancy, affecting fetus and newborn’.
<em>
</p>Your link says "Termination of pregnancy, affecting fetus and newborn", while the StatsCan definition is, "Other disorders originating in the perinatal period."]Maybe you could clarify this.


#20    ZaraKitty

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:29 AM

They must have been VERY late term abortions for the baby to come out ALIVE and stable enough to survive. This in itself is a botched abortion and is very illegal, so unless this is fake it sounds like this was an illegal operation.

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#21    White Crane Feather

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:41 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 25 November 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:



This is not the first time this has happened and continues to happen everyday.  Remains of the aborted have been found in trash cans behind the clinic.  Again, it is a business that is all, though of course there could be some who care, the bottom line is making money.  The ramification of abortion on demand have not yet been fully felt.

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Can't argue with that.. I have a degree in economics. Where there are incentives there will be action.... For better or for worse😢

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#22    glorybebe

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:57 AM

View PostZaraKitty, on 26 November 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

They must have been VERY late term abortions for the baby to come out ALIVE and stable enough to survive. This in itself is a botched abortion and is very illegal, so unless this is fake it sounds like this was an illegal operation.

After 3 months or 36 weeks, no abortions unless mother's life is in danger in Canada.  So, yeah, it sounds like illegal abortions, if we can actually believe this information.

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#23    Likely Guy

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:12 AM

View Postglorybebe, on 26 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

After 3 months or 36 weeks, no abortions unless mother's life is in danger in Canada.  So, yeah, it sounds like illegal abortions, if we can actually believe this information.

If it is illegal abortions, I still can't figure where StatsCan has listed them (or how they could have). The whole thing doesn't make sense.

P.S.: 3 months doesn't equal 36 weeks. Typo?

Edited by Likely Guy, 26 November 2012 - 05:18 AM.


#24    darkmoonlady

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:22 AM

I call foul on this. If you were to look at statistics of women who have miscarriages after the 20th week and what percentage of the fetus's live you would have the same statistic. In other words a fetus cannot live outside the womb before maybe the 26th week with out major intervention and even then the death rate of those "born premature" are exceedingly high. Take into account that the number of later gestation abortions are due to finding out the fetus is irrevocably deformed/underdeveloped or has severe physical defects causing the later abortion in the first place it makes those numbers seem just about the norm. Born alive does not mean born viable enough to live from then on just born with a "heartbeat". There are clear cases where a fetus is not viable due to cranial malformations etc that mean the fetus only has a partial skull and brain. Usually when I see statistics without good notations I'm led to believe this is propaganda against abortion while not really considering that actual medical necessity for later gestational abortions.

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#25    JGirl

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:26 AM

View Postglorybebe, on 26 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

After 3 months or 36 weeks, no abortions unless mother's life is in danger in Canada.  So, yeah, it sounds like illegal abortions, if we can actually believe this information.
or more likely these are cases where the mother's life was in question and the abortions were done knowing they would terminate outside the womb. this is why i wanted to see the details
it's all so one sided this so called article, which is really a blog from a pro life site

Edited by JGirl, 26 November 2012 - 05:27 AM.


#26    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

I don't know for sure if this story is for real? Or fake ? All I can say is.. From what I have read  in here -> http://twikle.co.uk/...tm?src=pop  its very sad, but I feel it could be in the case of saving the mothers life

If however this is true, and they only aborted to save the mothers life, then  the baby born at 20 weeks  ( under 25 weeks )  then they have a right to save the mothers life...A baby born at 20 weeks  cannot survive long after the birth

The only time a woman should have the rights to an abortion  is, if she is in a life threatening situation, OR  a victim of rape...But  usually  those ( result by rape cases )  abortions are rather early in the pregnancy

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 26 November 2012 - 10:56 AM.

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#27    MysticStrummer

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:58 AM

View PostJGirl, on 25 November 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

"A person commits homicide when he causes injury to a child before or during its birth as a result of which the child dies after becoming a human being.”
this statement does not make sense as it is written.
is a foetus a child but not a human?
as for the abortion issue. i have no say in what another woman does with her body. nor do any of you. you can call it what you like but it still is not for you to make that decision.
as for this report - i find it disturbing that this happened, and i wonder how this was allowed to happen.
still it is not typical of how abortions are performed. there is more to this i think.

The statement would make sense to some people. The moment where humanity begins varies depending on who you ask. I agree with you though that it should be no one's decision but the mother's.

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#28    GreenmansGod

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 25 November 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

This is not the first time this has happened and continues to happen everyday.  Remains of the aborted have been found in trash cans behind the clinic.  Again, it is a business that is all, though of course there could be some who care, the bottom line is making money.  The ramification of abortion on demand have not yet been fully felt.

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I remember when abortion was illegal.  My brother worked at the county morgue at the time, he told me about all the young women he saw there who had died from botched abortions. Bottom line all health care is about the money.  20 week abortions are not the norm.   Abortion is a women's health care issue like it or not. Women have the right to medical care.  I would not like to see a woman suffer the fate of that Irish women who died a painful death because the doctors feared the law more than they cared about life of their patient.  When you make a decision about someone else's life make good and sure you can live with it.

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#29    markdohle

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostJGirl, on 26 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

and in any case a woman should not have to justify to anyone why she chooses to not bring the pregnancy to term. i noticed when i googled this subject the only sites covering it are pro life sites and catholic news sites and the like.
also i found no further information on these 491 abortions that were apparently 'botched'
i seriously doubt it had anything to do with botching the surgery, yet we can never know that because that information is conveniently  not available.

Of course pro life sites will cover it, would not think planned parenthood when publish this. We all have a slant, I would not expect pro choice sites to publish this....yet it happens.  I deal with women who have had abortions, many never get over it, espeicallyi when it comes around to the time when they would have been born, their birthday.  It is not an easy situation for anyone, yet abuses will happen just like anywhere else and should be reported.

Peace
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#30    markdohle

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:48 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 26 November 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

I remember when abortion was illegal.  My brother worked at the county morgue at the time, he told me about all the young women he saw there who had died from botched abortions. Bottom line all health care is about the money.  20 week abortions are not the norm.   Abortion is a women's health care issue like it or not. Women have the right to medical care.  I would not like to see a woman suffer the fate of that Irish women who died a painful death because the doctors feared the law more than they cared about life of their patient.  When you make a decision about someone else's life make good and sure you can live with it.

I am not for changing the law, so I agree.  Women if they get abortions need to be protected.  Society needs to change from the bottom up, men need to be more responsible etc.  About the women, yes that was tragic, yet what about the infants (for that is what they were) when they were born alive, can you live with the fact that this is happening. Before change can happen, both sides need to look at what the other is saying.  It is not a black and white issue by any means.  Again, I believe our society is becoming more inhumane and this trend will continue until we reach a point when change will be possible if it is not too late.





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