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The Apocalypse Explained

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#91    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:25 AM

Bluefinger said:


AquilaChrysaetos said:

I did read your responses actually, and no offense, but I find them to have virtually no merit.

Christ's parables are not about the prophecies of Revelation, nor are they in any way expressed in the same way. Christ's parables are designed as teaching mechanisms meant to connect with Christ's already expressed literal explanation in order to help generalize the overall concept, which are especially helpful for the more abstract thinkers. I should know, I'm studying for a career in teaching. It's a basic teaching tool.

I dunno Aquila.  It feels like you're not even trying; like its something you just don't want to mess with.  And that's fine.  But please don't respond then.  That way the discussion can continue, rather than stop.

Jesus said that He only explained things plainly to His disciples, and that the parables were meant to keep the blind unaware of what was coming.  So it is with Revelation.  Contrary to your opinion, it is not chickenscratch.  It is well designed actually.

My intentions are not to stop your discussion, and trust me, I have done much more than just try. I have gotten many much more hateful responses from many so called Christians when I explain to them about my views concerning the history and authenticity of the bible.

I started out like most all other Christians out there with the belief in the inerrancy of the bible concept. However, after researching the overall creation of the modern day bible and reading so many of the other radical and/or contradicting views of it, as well as the lost books of both the old AND new testaments, I personally came to the conclusion that the most important and authentic books of the bible are simply the four gospels. So as you can see, many have gotten angry and yelled "blasphemey!" Despite my explainations of how following only Jesus Christ not only nullifies nearly all contradictions, brings nearly all Christians together as opposed to seperate, brings you into a closer relationship to him and him alone, and not only that but it is actually commanded by him for us to do so. So please, telling me I'm simply not trying hard enough to understand the very material I have personally researched for years, simply because I came to a different conclusion is a bit of an insult to me. Especially since My conclusion has most likely brought me much more grief than yours has.

Now, concerning the quote: "Jesus said that He only explained things plainly to His disciples, and that the parables were meant to keep the blind unaware of what was coming." I would like for you to post exactly which scriptures he said this in. I was personally under the impression that his message was direct the truth, meant to be expressed to all the people of the world, and that his parables were designed to further people's understanding as opposed to with hold information for the 'elect.'

Bluefinger said:


AquilaChrysaetos said:

You start out with explaining a concept in a simplistic literal explanation. Then after and/or through out the explanation you introduce a few or so cryptic thought provoking mechanisms to encourage the students to ask questions and therefore nurish their overall engagement in the subject. Then you give a clever thought out metaphor or parable to connect and generalize the overall concept. Then finally end it with questions.

John's book of Revelation is practically chicken scratch compared to Christ's parables. Revelation is in no way told as a narrative, nor is it a clever teaching method. It's more like one of the one time posters on here that posts a thread about some off the wall lunacy with absolutely no supportive evidence, referances, and least of all proof.


Okay.  I see where you're coming from.  I just think you are approaching apocalyptic literature from the wrong perspective.  Indeed, it isn't a narrative, but it has narratives in it (Rev. 12-14, for example.) It isn't an instructional piece either, but it has instruction in it (like the messages to the seven churches in Rev. 2-3.)  Its not lunacy either.  I just don't think you're explored it very well.

Apocalyptic writing is its own genre of literature.  In Revelation, the history is established in chapter 1.  In chapters 2-3, the intended audiences are instructed how to stay faithful and what the results of their choices would be.  Chapters 4-9 describe the times of the Jews, showing that it would come to an end with Jerusalem's destruction, similar to Jesus' parables (though less clear, yes.)  Chapter 10 interrupts the sequence to explain a new prophecy about the times of the Gentiles (10:11.)  Chapter 11 shortly explains what would happen during that time and how it would all end, culminating with the return of Jesus at Jerusalem upon the blasting of the seventh trumpet.  Chapters 12-14 given an account of the persecution of the saints and their deliverance from the Babylonian Exile to the return of Jesus.  So the theme is faithfulness in persecution, which would have been relevant to Smyrna, Pergamos, and Philadelphia.  Chapter 15 introduces the God's wrath against those that made war on the saints and chapter 16 describes how that wrath would play out upon the 'beast' and those that took the mark of its name.  Chapter 17 describes the destruction of the Roman Church and chapter 18 indulges in hyperboly to demonstrate the dangers of loving money and power; a message relevant to Laodicea and Thyatira.  Finally, chapter 19 details the return of Jesus and chapter 20 describes the setting up of his kingdom.  Chapters 21-22 describe all things being made new and the fulfillment of all of God's promises.

These are all these that Jesus spoke about.  

In your responses, you said nothing about the audience (seven churches), the historical background laid out in chapter 1, or the themes mentioned in the book.  

Jesus' Gospels flow in the same manner as Revelation, such as Mattew 22:1-14's parable of the wedding feast, which described the destruction of Jerusalem for rejecting the Gospel and killing the saaints; and the kingdom spreading to the Gentiles, as shown in Rev. 7, Rev. 10:11, Rev. 11, and Rev. 12:17.  It even describes someone who crept into the kingdom that had no business being there, which Rev. 13 shows is the false prophet and those that take the mark of the beast.  This is also reiterated at the end of Rev. 20.

What I think is important about Revelation is that it is the only piece in the New Testament that thoroughly describes what would happen to Jerusalem as well as what would happen during the times of the Gentiles, something the rest of Scripture, save for Daniel 7, is silent about.

I understand quite a bit about apocalyptic liteerature actually, and have actually studied nostradamus and many other 'end of the world' prophets. However I will admit that I most likely haven't studied them quite as thoroughly as you have. I have read many prophetic scriptures, however I never came to the conclusion that they have a more organized setup. I understand what you're saying. However regardless of how organized the prophecy is, it doesn't necessarily make it true. Many end of the world prophecies have been made, all written by imperfect man, and all so far with a 0% accuracy rate. Therefore forgive me I find myself skeptical of yet another imperfect man's prediction, regardless of whether Christian or not.

Also, please explain to me your interpretation of Matthew 22: 1-14 in greater detail. I re-read it and could find no indication of it describing the 'destruction of Jerusalem for rejecting the Gospel and killing the saints.'

Bluefinger said:


AquilaChrysaetos said:

I'm not trying to insult you, in fact I find your passion for Christianity quite commendable. I'm just hoping to open your mind to what at least I believe to be a more realistic perspective.


I appreciate it.  I have been realistic about it, otherwise I would not have ever abandoned futurism. I am on a quest for truth, and I can't shake the nagging feeling that Revelation is true.  

If one could deduce that Revelation was written before Jerusalem's destruction, then it becomes even more true.

Once again, I am not attempting to derail or diminish your discussion. I'm simply expressing my beliefs concerning the book of Revelation, and my own personal faith in Jesus Christ. I personally find that following Christ only is more realistic than anything, and that adding to or taking away from his message is just not his intention.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#92    Ogbin

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:26 AM

Mr. Bluefinger.

How does the war of "GOG AND MAGOG" (EZK. 38&39)  fit into your prophetic time line? and has this war already happend?

Edited by Ogbin, 20 January 2013 - 10:32 AM.


#93    laver

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

At the end of Matthew Chapter 28 Jesus says that we are living in an age, a time cycle, which will come to an end. This happens on a mountain by the Sea of Galilee, a mountain that was a place Jesus had specified to his disciples. It is Mary of Magdala who directs the apostles to this mountain which would seem to be Mount Arbel next to the town of Magdala.

At the beginning of the book of Revelations it is said to be a prophecy of what will happen hereafter and the first three chapters are all about 7 churches that are named by Jesus. These churches are in present day Turkey, their locations are well known, as are their Latitudes and Longitudes. We are told that there is a 'secret meaning' in these churches and that they are lamps of gold.

Working with these locations it can be readily shown that they form two alignments of the first 2 churches and the last 5 churches following Great Circle bearing lines. The 5 church bearing line then leaves Turkey and goes to the northen part of the Holy Land to a location on the Sea of Galilee, Mount Arbel and Magdala where Jesus has talked about the end of a time cycle.

These alignments are part of a much larger design of ancient landscape geometry which from other Gospel references Jesus was aware of and drawing our attention to.

The geometry is a fact. Should we ignore it now that we know it is there? Should we turn a blind eye to it?


#94    Bluefinger

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostOgbin, on 20 January 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Mr. Bluefinger.

     How does the war of "GOG AND MAGOG" (EZK. 38&39)  fit into your prophetic time line? and has this war already happend?

Hi Ogbin,

Hard to tell.  I haven't done too thorough of an exegesis on the book.  From what The New Oxford Annotated Bible states, it is likely that the book of Elijah was written down shortly after Ezekiel spoke, uncommon to most books in the Biblical canon.  Chapters 1-24 talk about the fall of Jerusalem, chapters 25-32 talk about judgments on foreign nations, and chapters 33-48 talk about Israel's restoration.

Now, shortly after the Battle of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel begins talking about the rebuilding of the temple.  The sequence seems to indicate that Israel would be settled and at peace well before the temple is rebuilt.  Historically, our times is the only time its happened like that.  It couldn't be talking about when the second temple was built because the Jews rebuilt the second temple in full battle gear to fight off the Edomites when they came to attack them.

Revelation 20 accounts for the same set of circumstances as well.  The Messiah rules with a reign of righteousness for 1,000 years, easily making Israel a camp with no walls and at peace.  

Then Gog and Magog are 'gathered' down to spoil Israel (Ezekiel 38:11.)  Since that is also the case, Ezekiel's prophecy sounds very similar to Zechariah 14's final battle, where the Lord's feat touch the Mount of Olives and slays all those nations gathered against them.  The nations gathered in Zechariah 14 also gather against Jerusalem to spoil her.  

In Revelation 20, the Great Judgment seems to happen right after Gog and Magog are slain.  In Ezekiel 38, the Battle of Gog and Magog seems to be a beginning of blessings for Israel and a prosperous rule.  So, given the facts about what both commentary on the battle of Gog and Magog suggest between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20, they seem to be two different battles.  Ezekiel 39:25-29 indicates that Jacob and the house of Israel, or the ethnic and political Israel, would be restored from exile and established in their own land where God would pour out His Spirit upon them.  In Revelation 20, it seems like this had already happened before the millenial reign began.

So, Ezekiel 38-39 seems to be speaking of the critical events leading up to ethnic Israel receiving God's Spirit in their own land.  If you read Revelation 11, after the great earthquake, the rest of the inhabitants in Jerusalem glorify God, breaking a longstanding chain of blindness to God's righteous salvation.  In Zechariah 4, there is a great earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives to give Israel a path to flee Jerusalem from.  At that point, those that gathered against Israel to spoil Jerusalem are defeated by God's word; or, as Revelation 19:21 says, they are slain with "the sword that came from His mouth."

So, that begs the question:  "Why did Revelation 20:8 quote Gog and Magog, obviously alluding to Ezekiel 38 and 39?"

And I think that is because of what Revelation 20:8 says in addition to Gog and Magog:  The four corners of the earth.  It's basically saying that, much like how Babel rebelled against God after the flood, the nations of the world would throw off Jesus' authority and seek to take His authority and dominion.  The magnitude of this event is unthinkable.  And that is why the Great Judgment happens immediately afterward.  It is the event where all peoples, nations, languages, and tribes are put under the authority and dominion of Christ and all rebellion is put under His power.  Then, He will deliver all that is under Him to the Father so that God may be all in all.

That, I believe, is the reason why Gog and Magog is used in Revelation 20:6.  It is the event where all powers are put under the authority of Christ; an promise consistently stated by the apostles.

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#95    laver

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:18 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 20 January 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Hi Ogbin,

Hard to tell.  I haven't done too thorough of an exegesis on the book.  From what The New Oxford Annotated Bible states, it is likely that the book of Elijah was written down shortly after Ezekiel spoke, uncommon to most books in the Biblical canon.  Chapters 1-24 talk about the fall of Jerusalem, chapters 25-32 talk about judgments on foreign nations, and chapters 33-48 talk about Israel's restoration.

Now, shortly after the Battle of Gog and Magog, Ezekiel begins talking about the rebuilding of the temple.  The sequence seems to indicate that Israel would be settled and at peace well before the temple is rebuilt.  Historically, our times is the only time its happened like that.  It couldn't be talking about when the second temple was built because the Jews rebuilt the second temple in full battle gear to fight off the Edomites when they came to attack them.

Revelation 20 accounts for the same set of circumstances as well.  The Messiah rules with a reign of righteousness for 1,000 years, easily making Israel a camp with no walls and at peace.  

Then Gog and Magog are 'gathered' down to spoil Israel (Ezekiel 38:11.)  Since that is also the case, Ezekiel's prophecy sounds very similar to Zechariah 14's final battle, where the Lord's feat touch the Mount of Olives and slays all those nations gathered against them.  The nations gathered in Zechariah 14 also gather against Jerusalem to spoil her.  

In Revelation 20, the Great Judgment seems to happen right after Gog and Magog are slain.  In Ezekiel 38, the Battle of Gog and Magog seems to be a beginning of blessings for Israel and a prosperous rule.  So, given the facts about what both commentary on the battle of Gog and Magog suggest between Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20, they seem to be two different battles.  Ezekiel 39:25-29 indicates that Jacob and the house of Israel, or the ethnic and political Israel, would be restored from exile and established in their own land where God would pour out His Spirit upon them.  In Revelation 20, it seems like this had already happened before the millenial reign began.

So, Ezekiel 38-39 seems to be speaking of the critical events leading up to ethnic Israel receiving God's Spirit in their own land.  If you read Revelation 11, after the great earthquake, the rest of the inhabitants in Jerusalem glorify God, breaking a longstanding chain of blindness to God's righteous salvation.  In Zechariah 4, there is a great earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives to give Israel a path to flee Jerusalem from.  At that point, those that gathered against Israel to spoil Jerusalem are defeated by God's word; or, as Revelation 19:21 says, they are slain with "the sword that came from His mouth."

So, that begs the question:  "Why did Revelation 20:8 quote Gog and Magog, obviously alluding to Ezekiel 38 and 39?"

And I think that is because of what Revelation 20:8 says in addition to Gog and Magog:  The four corners of the earth.  It's basically saying that, much like how Babel rebelled against God after the flood, the nations of the world would throw off Jesus' authority and seek to take His authority and dominion.  The magnitude of this event is unthinkable.  And that is why the Great Judgment happens immediately afterward.  It is the event where all peoples, nations, languages, and tribes are put under the authority and dominion of Christ and all rebellion is put under His power.  Then, He will deliver all that is under Him to the Father so that God may be all in all.

That, I believe, is the reason why Gog and Magog is used in Revelation 20:6.  It is the event where all powers are put under the authority of Christ; an promise consistently stated by the apostles.

John 4:  1-42  'Believe me' said Jesus, 'the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem.....' He goes on to say you have to worship what you 'know to be true'........worth taking note maybe when considering the geometric sites of the Holy Land......Jesus knew...


#96    Ogbin

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:46 AM

Mr.Bluefinger

   Rev.12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

  Joseph had a dream in which he told to Jacob his father and to his brothers. Gen.37:9" ... behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."  


   Does Josephs dream have anything to do with Rev.12:1?

Edited by Ogbin, 21 January 2013 - 05:51 AM.


#97    Bluefinger

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostOgbin, on 21 January 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Mr.Bluefinger

   Rev.12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

  Joseph had a dream in which he told to Jacob his father and to his brothers. Gen.37:9" ... behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."  


   Does Josephs dream have anything to do with Rev.12:1?

Most definitely.  Jacob revealed what they sun, moon, and stars were too:

"But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him and said to him, "What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall I and  your mother and your brothers indeed come  to bow ourselves to the ground before you?" (Genesis 37:10 ESV)

The woman is the nation of Israel.  Revelation 12 is showing the woman in exile (in a historical sense.)

"Now why do you cry aloud? Is there no king in you? Has your counselor perished, that  pain seized you like a woman in labor? Writhe and groan,  O daughter of Zion, like a woman in labor, for  now you shall go out from the city and dwell in the open country; you  shall go to Babylon. There you shall be rescued; there the  Lord  will redeem you from the hand of your enemies." (Micah 4:9, 10 ESV)

Edited by Bluefinger, 21 January 2013 - 01:47 PM.

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#98    Ogbin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:52 PM

Mr.Bluefinger


Daniels 70 weeks. 1 week is a 7 year period. Revelation is about the last week (7 year period). Now according to Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"(7 years). The Tribulation doesn't start untill Revelation 6:2 "And i saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."


What say you?


#99    Bluefinger

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:08 PM

View PostOgbin, on 22 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Mr.Bluefinger


Daniels 70 weeks. 1 week is a 7 year period. Revelation is about the last week (7 year period). Now according to Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"(7 years). The Tribulation doesn't start untill Revelation 6:2 "And i saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."


What say you?

Hey Ogbin, thanks for the challenge.

I'll respond with a couple questions:

1) Daniel 9:26 says that the result of the seventy weeks of years is that Jerusalem would be destroyed by an army.  Verse 27 explains why.

So, was it talking about a third destruction of Jerusalem or the second?

2)  If it is talking about the third, why would the writer ommit the second?  1.1 million Jews died at Jerusalem alone in 70 CE.  Wouldn't that be quite significant for Daniel to know?

Edited by Bluefinger, 22 January 2013 - 08:09 PM.

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#100    Bluefinger

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

View PostOgbin, on 22 January 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Mr.Bluefinger


Daniels 70 weeks. 1 week is a 7 year period. Revelation is about the last week (7 year period). Now according to Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:"(7 years). The Tribulation doesn't start untill Revelation 6:2 "And i saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."


What say you?

Concerning Revelation, it doesn't state seven years.  Indeed, if you read Daniel 12:7, the tribulation mentioned in 12:1 lasts only 3.5 years.  The war in Judea started in 66 CE and ended 3.5 years later with Jerusalem's destruction.  The seige, captured in a hyperbole described in the fifth trumpet blast, lasted five months as well.  

So, while I agree that the tribulation that Daniel spoke of began with the first seal, I'm of the belief that it is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, rather than a third destruction.  In fact, if it weren't for the preserved works of Flavius Josephus, we might have thought it hardly mattered to the Jews.  

The second destruction of Jerusalem and the exile they experienced for nearly two thousand years is not something one would expect to be omitted from Old Testament apocalypic writing.  Even the Gospell narratives make it a huge point to show Jesus' prophecies about Jerusalem's destruction, much of what He quoted from Daniel's writings.

Edited by Bluefinger, 22 January 2013 - 08:59 PM.

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#101    green_dude777

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:26 PM

Here are several of many apocalypses that are possible. http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm


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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 12 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Good question Catz!  

For your first question, I think my answer might come to you as a surprise.

The Two Witnesses are the Gentile Church.  This can be a lengthy explanation so please bear with me.  I will describe it how in the order it is written.

Rev. 11 starts out with measuring the temple.  The obvious reason for this is because it is saying that the temple was going to be destroyed.  Therefore, the new measurements had to be laid out, like what Ezekiel 40 did.  The reason for this is because the Time of the Gentiles were beginning.  To get that, you'd have to go back to chapter 10 and see verse 17, where John is commissioned to begin a new prophecy about many peoples, languages, nations, and kings; the Gentiles.  

The prophecy of the Two Witnesses is inserted between the sixth and seventh trumpet blasts.  The sixth trumpet is the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple.  (I can explain the trumpets in another thread.  I just want to get through this one without getting off topic.)  From Jerusalem's destruction, the kingdom of God was given over to the Gentiles.  (See Mt. 21:42-45, Mt. 22:1-14, Lk. 21:24 for more detail.)  So, the Two Witnesses are not Jews, like the 144,000 sealed before Jerusalem's destruction.  They are Gentiles.

These Two Witnesses are commissioned AFTER Jerusalem is trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.  So, post-70 CE.  They are the two olive trees.  This is taken from Zech. 4, which was written about the rebuilding of the second temple by Zerubabbel the governor and Joshua the High Priest.  The lampstand in that chapter represented the second temple.  The two olive trees had branches that extended out and poured oil into the lampstand, signifying that Joshua and Zerubabbel would rebuild and reconsecrate the temple.  When Zechariah asked what the olive trees were, he was ignored by the angel.  When he asked what the branches were, he was told that these are the two that stand before The Lord of hosts.  That's our tip.  The two olive trees are priests, like Joshua, and kings, like Zerubabbel.  This is a repetitive theme in the book of Revelation to signify the saints.  (See Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6)  

These are also two lampstands, which we already identified were temples.  But we know that the temple was destroyed.  So these two witnesses are the temples.  These are what many today call The Church.  (But so much more than that!)  They are built upon the prophets and apostles, with Christ being the chief cornerstone, into a glorious temple (Eph. 2:19-22.)  

Their prophecy is the witness of the Gospel to all nations.  (Mt. 22:10)  Their witness is like fire to wood, convicting of evil; like when the Christians stood up to the Romans at the Tribune, like what happened to Smyrna.  (Rev. 2:10)  They would receive words from the Spirit and those words would pierce the heart.  

Now you asked about Moses and Elijah:

They are like Moses and Elijah.  This can be hinted at by the plagues they cause, similar to those caused during Moses' and Eljiah's ministry.  But more than that, their goal is the same.  They keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus, like Philadelphia did.  (Rev. 3:8)  This is also a repetitive theme, as you can see.  Revelation 12:17 shows it in plain language.  The Gentile Church was to keep the teachings of Christ and hold to His testimony (Rev. 19:10.)  Like Moses, the Church kept God's commands (the teachings of Christ, the New Law).  And like Elijah, the Church preached to the pagans and unbelievers who the One True God was.  Not only that, these live out the blessings of God (Deut. 28:1-14) so as to inspire the Jews to jealousy, by which they would throw off the curse of the Law.  (Romans 11:11)

As Luke 21:24 and Romans 11:25 shows, the Times of the Gentiles would eventually come to an end, with Jerusalem receiving their Lord again.  When that happens, the temple that was measured will have been rebuilt in Jerusalem, fulfilling what Paul looked forward to in Romans 11:25; All of Israel will be saved.  The kingdom of God would finally produce fruit in Jerusalem and bless the name of the Lord.  Christ's would then cleanse the Jews and Jerusalem of all unrighteousness, allowing the Holy Spirit to enter the people and make them God's temple.  Then the Two Witnesses will have then finished their testimony.  

Another interesting observation:  The Two Witnesses are resurrected in Jerusalem and the city praises God after that point.  Paul also notes that if the rejection of Israel mean salvation to all nations, then what would Israel's inclusion mean but resurrection of the dead?  And so we have it.  The Two Witnesses are the Gentiles, living out the promises of God in the kingdom of heaven.  They do this in an age called The Times of the Gentiles and will continue to do so until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25.)  Then the eternal Gospel will have been preached to all nations.  (Rev. 14:6)

I hope you found this research helpful!
So the gentile church is going to be killed and have a body that lies in the street for 3 days?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#103    Bluefinger

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:51 PM

View Postand then, on 22 January 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

So the gentile church is going to be killed and have a body that lies in the street for 3 days?

Strange to say, but yes.  Look at other prophecies made about the events:

Babylon, the Church of Rome, would be destroyed at exactly the same time the Gentile Church is killed.  

During the war between Rome and Judea, Jews everywhere in the Roman Empire were persecuted and killed because of their affilition with Judaism.  The Jews that followed Jesus, however, were not considered Jews by their counterparts.  These were called Christians.

In Rev. 18:4, Jesus' disciples are called out of Babylon, much like the first disciples were called out of Jerusalem before it was destroyed by the Romans.  Interestingly, the OT prophecies show all nations (Gentiles) flowing to Mount Zion to hear the Lord's teaching.  Rev. 14 shows the remnant standing on Mount Zion and the eternal Gospel going out to the world.  Then the destruction of Babylon (Rome) is announced.

I don't know how, but the Roman Church is going to p*** off a kingdom and get herself destroyed, but not before Christ calls a remnant out.

Edited by Bluefinger, 22 January 2013 - 09:53 PM.

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#104    Ogbin

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

Mr. Bluefinger

Revelation 8:7 "The first angel  sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the EARTH: and the THIRD part of the trees was burnt up, and ALL green grass was burnt up."


  When did this happen?


#105    Jor-el

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:44 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 19 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

where's jor-el and crikey?

Hi Blufinger, just checking in to say I'll get back to you. I've been stressed out at work and can't answer your post with my undivided attention at the moment, I was hoping to get a few hours free on the weekend but couldn't find the time to sit down. It's been one of those weeks.

Edited by Jor-el, 22 January 2013 - 10:45 PM.

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