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Is Israel an Apartheid state?


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#1    Erikl

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:36 PM



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#2    Coffey

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

Can you smell the propaganda.... lol

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#3    Yamato

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostErikl, on 06 May 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:


Israel is an apartheid state for anyone thinking that Palestine is part of Israel, yes.   But in the general sense I would say no, Israel is not an apartheid state.  There is no apartheid inside of Israel proper.  There is fiendish apartheid present in Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian land, and it's the worst case of apartheid on the planet.

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#4    Erikl

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:54 PM

View PostCoffey, on 06 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

Can you smell the propaganda.... lol
How's that propaganda? because it says the truth? I must admit, sometimes pro-Israeli non-Israeli sources might replicate pro-Palestinian sources in telling only parts of the story, but this video is actually extremely accurate. Or have you spent some time in Israel and found it to be different? if so, enlighten me, as I would like to know which part in Israel you've visited.

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#5    Erikl

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostYamato, on 06 May 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Israel is an apartheid state for anyone thinking that Palestine is part of Israel, yes.   But in the general sense I would say no, Israel is not an apartheid state.  There is no apartheid inside of Israel proper.  There is fiendish apartheid present in Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian land, and it's the worst case of apartheid on the planet.
Erm, what's your definition of Palestine? If you ask Hamas, and many other Palestinians, Palestine includes all of Israel. Being that it doesn't exist yet, it's a vague definition.
However, this video rightly states that the Palestinians outside Israel are not under Israeli rule proper, nor are they Israeli citizens. Also, being that they are no different racially, culturally or religiously than the Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there is no apartheid, which originated as a result of racism and bigotry. The situation between Israel and the non-Israeli Palestinians, is dictated by security measures that have to be taken by the Israeli government, not as a result of racist or bigot policies. If that was the case, then the same or similar policies would have been taken against Israeli Palestinians, which are the exact same people (and aside of 19 years of separation while the West Bank was under Jordanian occupation, they had family and marriage ties as well).

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#6    Coffey

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:00 PM

View PostErikl, on 06 May 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

How's that propaganda? because it says the truth? I must admit, sometimes pro-Israeli non-Israeli sources might replicate pro-Palestinian sources in telling only parts of the story, but this video is actually extremely accurate. Or have you spent some time in Israel and found it to be different? if so, enlighten me, as I would like to know which part in Israel you've visited.

It's nothing to do with that, the fact is the first part of the video is a cover to then mention "terrorists" and suicide bombers. Pure propaganda. Of course I don't expect you to see it that way.

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#7    Yamato

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:14 PM

View PostErikl, on 06 May 2013 - 07:00 PM, said:

Erm, what's your definition of Palestine? If you ask Hamas, and many other Palestinians, Palestine includes all of Israel. Being that it doesn't exist yet, it's a vague definition.
However, this video rightly states that the Palestinians outside Israel are not under Israeli rule proper, nor are they Israeli citizens. Also, being that they are no different racially, culturally or religiously than the Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there is no apartheid, which originated as a result of racism and bigotry. The situation between Israel and the non-Israeli Palestinians, is dictated by security measures that have to be taken by the Israeli government, not as a result of racist or bigot policies. If that was the case, then the same or similar policies would have been taken against Israeli Palestinians, which are the exact same people (and aside of 19 years of separation while the West Bank was under Jordanian occupation, they had family and marriage ties as well).
Questioning the definition of the word 'Palestine' with me, how quaint.   Defend yourselves and set Palestine free.  

There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian".   It's great rhetoric to use when trying to express one's ownership of something.  You want to own the Palestinians and I'm sorry to see that has revealed itself in your rhetoric.

That there are some Palestinians that want all of Israel (all of Palestine back) that doesn't make any distinction from Israel itself.   That mud is on the face of Israelis too.   Read the Likud charter, it's blatantly spelled out in writing.  I don't see that as any reason to strangle Israel from land, sea and air.  

What would be an acceptable compromise to me?   Take the Gaza strip and extend the West Bank south and lose your access to the Red Sea.   That's just my own idea, I would consider others that may be better than mine.   But one thing I know for sure, compromises of some kind must be made on both sides if peace is possible.

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#8    Erikl

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

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There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian".   It's great rhetoric to use when trying to express one's ownership of something.

If Palestinians are a nation of people, which deserve their own state, and their own national self-determination, then obviously, having an Israeli citizenship doesn't make one non-Palestinian, doesn't it?
I mean calling Israeli Palestinians "Arabs" is a bit weird - because there is no nation of Arabs. Yes, there are Arab nations, meaning all sorts of nations speaking Arabic, but there is no nation called Arabs. There are Egyptians, Moroccans, Lebanese, Syrians - and there are Palestinians. Denying the possibility of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, is denying the fact that Palestinians are a nation, which kind of undermines your ideology. Ofcourse, it also undermines 99.9% of your propaganda and anti-Israeli libels, because most of it is based on some rubbish of Israeli being a racist, evil country that dictates a tyrannical apartheid under which the Palestinians live in. But wait, if there are no Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there are Lebanese, Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians as well, no? I wonder what the Palestinians themselves think about it :rolleyes:.

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That there are some Palestinians that want all of Israel (all of Palestine back) that doesn't make any distinction from Israel itself.   That mud is on the face of Israelis too.   Read the Likud charter, it's blatantly spelled out in writing.  I don't see that as any reason to strangle Israel from land, sea and air.  
The thing is, the Likud party has hard background favoring the fact it's historical refusal for a Palestinian state was abandoned. The fact that the under Likud, 10,000 settlers were and the entire Gaza Strip was evacuated, which is equatable to Hamas' leader landing in Israeli parliament like Egyptian president Sa'adat did back then. Also, under Likud government, the Oslo B agreement was singed. Under Likud government, settlement growth was halt for almost a year - no Israeli Labour government has ever took such steps and it supposed to be dovish and pro-Palestinian in it's political platform.
The thing is, most Israelis, from left to right in the political spectrum, support and acknowledge the notion that the Palestinians should have their own state.
They even agree on the fact that perhaps more Israeli should be removed from the future Jew-free Palestine.
Most Palestinians, on the other hand, have it as a consensus that even if Palestine will exist alongside Israel (and there is never any clear evidence that most support that), Israel should still be flooded with millions of Syrian, Lebanese and Jordanian Palestinians, thus supporting a whole different notion of two states solution - one Jew-free Palestine, and another Palestine with a Jewish minority (and if you didn't get it - Israel would become another Palestine if it will be flooded by millions of Palestinians).

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#9    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:50 AM

Maybe they don't like short people and practice apart-height.


#10    Yamato

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:29 AM

View PostErikl, on 06 May 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

If Palestinians are a nation of people, which deserve their own state, and their own national self-determination, then obviously, having an Israeli citizenship doesn't make one non-Palestinian, doesn't it?
I mean calling Israeli Palestinians "Arabs" is a bit weird - because there is no nation of Arabs. Yes, there are Arab nations, meaning all sorts of nations speaking Arabic, but there is no nation called Arabs. There are Egyptians, Moroccans, Lebanese, Syrians - and there are Palestinians. Denying the possibility of Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, is denying the fact that Palestinians are a nation, which kind of undermines your ideology. Ofcourse, it also undermines 99.9% of your propaganda and anti-Israeli libels, because most of it is based on some rubbish of Israeli being a racist, evil country that dictates a tyrannical apartheid under which the Palestinians live in. But wait, if there are no Israeli Palestinians, then ofcourse there are Lebanese, Syrian or Jordanian Palestinians as well, no? I wonder what the Palestinians themselves think about it :rolleyes:.


The thing is, the Likud party has hard background favoring the fact it's historical refusal for a Palestinian state was abandoned. The fact that the under Likud, 10,000 settlers were and the entire Gaza Strip was evacuated, which is equatable to Hamas' leader landing in Israeli parliament like Egyptian president Sa'adat did back then. Also, under Likud government, the Oslo B agreement was singed. Under Likud government, settlement growth was halt for almost a year - no Israeli Labour government has ever took such steps and it supposed to be dovish and pro-Palestinian in it's political platform.
The thing is, most Israelis, from left to right in the political spectrum, support and acknowledge the notion that the Palestinians should have their own state.
They even agree on the fact that perhaps more Israeli should be removed from the future Jew-free Palestine.
Most Palestinians, on the other hand, have it as a consensus that even if Palestine will exist alongside Israel (and there is never any clear evidence that most support that), Israel should still be flooded with millions of Syrian, Lebanese and Jordanian Palestinians, thus supporting a whole different notion of two states solution - one Jew-free Palestine, and another Palestine with a Jewish minority (and if you didn't get it - Israel would become another Palestine if it will be flooded by millions of Palestinians).
Romps through the groups, group names, and/or the political opinions of those groups don't supercede nor supplant the human rights of individuals.   Zionism or not, we can't deny human rights to anyone.

When Gaza was evacuated of Israelis it was besieged by Israelis.  Settlement/occupation can't be replaced by blockade and offered as a reason to support Zionist policy.   There are many practices and ways that tyranny bans freedom.  Killing, strangling, occupying, immobilizing, and stealing are all examples of denying private property, freedom of mobility, self expression, self determination, self defense, life, and the pursuit of happiness.

Signing papers agreeing to Arafat's Islands is a great way to guarantee a 2nd state of Palestine will never exist, which fits Likud's charter of intolerance of a Palestinian state, how convenient.   This confers with what we know about Israel, not a reason to change my mind about civil liberty.

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#11    Erikl

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostYamato, on 07 May 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Romps through the groups, group names, and/or the political opinions of those groups don't supercede nor supplant the human rights of individuals.   Zionism or not, we can't deny human rights to anyone.

I was referring to your following claim:

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There is no such thing as an "Israeli Palestinian".   It's great rhetoric to use when trying to express one's ownership of something.


Don't try to change the subject that was raised as a result of your erroneous claims.

Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, and they are about 20% of Israeli citizenship today, enjoy full human rights, the same as their fellow Israeli Jews. That's 1 in 5 Israelis. They are the exact same people as the ones living in the West Bank and Gaza, just with Israeli citizenship. Same race, same language, same religion, even same families.

It seems that you go a great length to refute their existence, because it undermines all your "Israel is racist" arguments. If Palestinians living in Israel enjoy full human and political rights, then Israel's actions cannot be the result of some racist agenda to eradicate or ethnic cleanse the Palestinians. So first, you try to deny their entire existence. However, denying they exist, undermines the entire idea of a Palestinian nationhood. It also goes completely against the Palestinian national narrative, and against their own self-designation as Israeli Palestinians.


Quote

When Gaza was evacuated of Israelis it was besieged by Israelis.  Settlement/occupation can't be replaced by blockade and offered as a reason to support Zionist policy.

The blockade is a right of any nation to put upon an enemy entity. The Gaza Strip under Hamas is such. It seems that even Egypt thinks so, which is why they didn't cancel the blockade on their side.


Quote

Signing papers agreeing to Arafat's Islands is a great way to guarantee a 2nd state of Palestine will never exist, which fits Likud's charter of intolerance of a Palestinian state, how convenient.   This confers with what we know about Israel, not a reason to change my mind about civil liberty.

It's funny you talk about civil liberties, while completely ignore the fact that you bash the only side of the conflict that actually respect civil liberties, and support the one that completely ignores them.

The thing is, in Israel a Palestinian judge sent a Jewish president to jail. And that sums up any claim or apartheid/racist oppressiveness etc..

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#12    Saru

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

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B Jenkins - please stop spamming anti-Israeli Youtube videos.


#13    GoSC

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostSaru, on 07 May 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Thread cleaned

B Jenkins - please stop spamming anti-Israeli Youtube videos.

The intent was never anti-Israel but to present images of Israel that most Americans and Europeans never have an opportunity to see on their televisions. It was an opportunity to present another side. The duly lollygagging of the IDF and Border Police to the active participation believe you me when that happens in the States it makes news around the world. My apologies, there was no anti-Israel intent.

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#14    Erikl

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

By the way, from wikipedia:

Quote

Arab citizens of Israel[3] are non-Jewish Israeli citizens whose cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Palestinian.

Furthermore:

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According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,617,000, representing 20.5% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli bycitizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.

So it's quite suffice to say that there are Israeli Palestinians. Your lack of acknowledgement is biased or ignorant.

And the fact that they exist as free citizens with full civil and political rights, proves that Israeli treatment and attitude towards non-Israeli Palestinians is not racially motivated, or it would have been treating it's own Palestinian citizens the same way. While ofcourse there is racism in Israel, like in any other country in the world, and ofcourse that's bad, and in that respect Israel is no different than any other country, and of course after a century of conflict between Jews and Arabs in the region there will be "bad blood" between the two, which I can show many examples of, Israel's behavior towards the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip is security based, not racially based.
This nullify any claims of apartheid or any other racist accusations which are widespread among the like of you.

Edited by Erikl, 07 May 2013 - 03:53 PM.

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#15    Erikl

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:50 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 07 May 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

The intent was never anti-Israel but to present images of Israel that most Americans and Europeans never have an opportunity to see on their televisions. It was an opportunity to present another side. The duly lollygagging of the IDF and Border Police to the active participation believe you me when that happens in the States it makes news around the world. My apologies, there was no anti-Israel intent.

These are not images of Israel, these are images of Israelis in contact with non-Israeli Palestinians, and one of these videos was a specific controversy that has nothing to do with the Palestinians (the Ethiopian issue) that was refuted in Israeli media as a conspiracy theory, but seems to still be well alive in the minds of pro-Palestinian propagandists. While my video actually shows an example of how most of Israel is managed, your videos where focusing on specific cases - and that's a great example of propaganda.

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