people who disappear from history

[danielost]

i have notice that those who don't believe in the bible just state that the person in question simply never existed.

so my question is how long before mr. king becomes one of those who is only a legend.

[Peter B]

i have notice that those who don't believe in the bible just state that the person in question simply never existed.

The relationship seems that simple to you?

I suspect if you actually ask people you'll find the answer is a bit more nuanced than that.

For example, I don't think the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, but was simply written by many people over centuries. However that doesn't mean I think everyone mentioned in it didn't exist. Still, there are quite a few people named in the Bible whose lives I suspect were nothing like (or as long-lived as) what was described therein.

The determining factor for me is evidence outside the Bible, both direct and indirect. For example there's little doubt that Herod the Great existed, as contemporary written evidence and archaeological evidence both point to his reality. Noah, on the other hand, probably not.

so my question is how long before mr. king becomes one of those who is only a legend.

Who? Martin Luther King? A long time, because there's plenty of contemporary evidence for his existence which is likely to survive for a long time.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

i have notice that those who don't believe in the bible just state that the person in question simply never existed.

so my question is how long before mr. king becomes one of those who is only a legend.

I don't get the comparison. What does Martin Luther King, (if that is who you are talking about) have to do with people who don't believe the bible? (your words, you do not mean Atheists?)

I have never read the bible thoroughly, considering my secular background, but Martin Luther King was someone who was important to situations that changed mindsets, and behaviors, not just beliefs.

I believe Peter B. said it best, there is too much to prove MLK as being a larger than life individual who did so much for us. You cannot debate on who his children and such are and that some live today to continue to spread and talk about him. This is not talking about what changed on a spiritual note in my feelings and opinion, but how he changed on a political note and this is based on reading up on him as a historic fact, in my experience.

[ellapenella]

i have notice that those who don't believe in the bible just state that the person in question simply never existed.

so my question is how long before mr. king becomes one of those who is only a legend.

Were Christians really thrown to the lions?

January 30, 2009

Dear Cecil:

My friend says Christians weren't actually thrown to the lions in ancient Rome, but when I was at the Colosseum, I saw a big cross there in honor of all the Christians martyred at that spot. He insists this was just made up by the church to perpetuate their religion. What gives?

— vbunny

Cecil replies:

The story has its suspicious aspects, I guess. According to the historian Tacitus, Christians during Nero's time (at least) were mainly torn apart by dogs, crucified, or burned alive — no mention of lions. The Romans did throw people to lions on occasion, and Tertullian, writing later, remarks that the Romans were always ready to exclaim "Away with the Christians to the lion!" whenever times got tough. However, Tertullian doesn't claim he witnessed any martyrdoms-by-lion personally, and anyway he was a Christian himself. Fact is, while the Romans evidently fed Christians to animals, and people to lions, we have no source stating directly that they specifically fed Christians to lions. So theoretically it's possible the whole Christians-lions thing was a Christian ploy for sympathy.

But probably not. The Romans did a big business in mass slaughter by and of animals, showing great enterprise in arranging dramatic forms of killing, so if they didn't throw any Christians to the lions, it was likely an oversight. While record keeping at the time wasn't the best, and many early Christian texts have their implausible moments, here's what we can say with reasonable certainty:

1. During the early Christian era, the Romans executed some prisoners using animals, sentencing them ad bestias, "to the beasts." The beasts in question included dogs, bears, boars, and lions.

2. Christians were executed by the boatload during that time, often in cruel and unusual ways, with animals regularly playing a role. Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, wrote letters en route to execution in Rome predicting he’d be thrown to the beasts. Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, was threatened with being thrown to the beasts but as it turned out was finished off by the sword. Possibly no one saw more animal action than the Christian priest Saturus — reportedly he was first tied to a boar (which turned on its handler instead), then exposed to a bear (it proved too cowardly to attack him), and finally killed by a leopard. Speaking of Nero's persecutions, Tacitus adds the detail that the emperor had Christians dressed in the skins of animals before throwing them to the dogs, possibly to help overcome any performance anxiety on the dogs’ part.

3. Animals weren't used just for execution in ancient Rome; animal combat, usually ending in the animals' demise, was unfailingly popular. Sometimes armed men fought beasts; sometimes the beasts were made to fight one another. Such games, originally held for religious purposes, became ever more lavish and were staged in amphitheaters across the empire. One well-loved event was the venatio, or hunt, often conducted amid elaborately constructed scenery, including real trees, rocky hills, artificial lakes, and the like.

4. Roman executions typically were considered a form of public spectacle. When coinciding with a game day, they usually took place during the midday break between the morning animal hunts and the afternoon gladiator matches. A favored method was exposing an unarmed criminal to lions or bears. Since it’s pretty clear that Christians were at times sentenced to death by beast (see 1 and 2 above), one may surmise that some of them met their end via lion in front of a Colosseum crowd, but we have no sure knowledge of this. The entertainment value of executions was apparently low due to their sheer number — many people found them boring, either leaving for lunch or sticking around and writing letters to friends about the tedium.

5. You have to think the killing of animals might have eventually gotten dull as well — it’s estimated that 9,000 beasts were slain during the inaugural games of the Colosseum alone (possibly an exaggeration; another source says 3,500 during 26 events). Over time more exotic animals were introduced to hold the crowd's interest: lions and panthers turned up in 186 BC, bears and elephants in 169 BC, hippos and crocodiles in 58 BC. Pompey brought rhinos to Rome; Caesar wowed 'em with giraffes. The ever-growing number and variety of animals required put a considerable burden on the supply chain. In his Natural History Pliny the Elder tells us lions were originally hard to catch (the idea was to chase them into covered pits), but later it was discovered they could be subdued by throwing a cloak over their heads. Elephants were captured and tamed by beatings and starvation. A major source of animals was the Roman army, which had a special rank (venator immunis) for those in charge of animal procurement.

A sorry business for sure, but Roman animal sports did at least provide an answer to one perennial question: Which is tougher, a bull or a rhino? Answer: Never bet against a rhino, which according to the writer Martial had no problem getting its horn under a bull and flipping it like a flapjack.

— Cecil Adams

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2841/were-christians-really-thrown-to-the-lions

[ellapenella]

If the above is true , if Jesus didn't exist then why were Christians killed ?

[ellapenella]

It just doesn't make any sense that Jesus never existed. when they were killing Christ ians just because they loved , believed and followed him ? did they keep good records of all the people they killed back then

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Fascinating bit there about the colosseum. Been there myself. Good example, I think.

[Imaginarynumber1]

If the above is true , if Jesus didn't exist then why were Christians killed ?

If the Greek pantheon of God's never existed why did they make offerings to them?

If the Aztec gods never existed why did they make sacrifices to them?

If the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, why does the decline in Caribbean pirating correlate with rising global temperature?

[ellapenella]

Fascinating bit there about the colosseum. Been there myself. Good example, I think.

I wonder, if he never existed then why did all that happen. And if they kept good accounts of all the people they killed?

The thread is about people who disappeared from history right ?There's a story someplace in the bible about a christian

lady who gave birth there, oh my goodness what they did for entertainment was terrible.

You're so fortunate to have gone there. I would love to leave America and just actually move to Europe one day.

[ellapenella]

If the Greek pantheon of God's never existed why did they make offerings to them?

If the Aztec gods never existed why did they make sacrifices to them?

If the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, why does the decline in Caribbean pirating correlate with rising global temperature?

We're talking about people . Not what God they prayed to. We're discussing the possibility of people in hisory long ago that were

once alive, and their account of history. like Abraham and Jesus ...not the gods but the people...

[Imaginarynumber1]

We're talking about people . Not what God they prayed to. We're discussing the possibility of people in hisory long ago that were

once alive, and their account of history. like Abraham and Jesus ...not the gods but the people...

Your statement was if jesus didn't exist, then why did they kill christians.

My point was quite clear.

[ellapenella]

Your statement was if jesus didn't exist, then why did they kill christians.

My point was quite clear.

If I confused you , I didn't mean to. I'm looking at the people and Jesus was a person.

If he didn't exist why then did the kill his followers is my point, silly.

[Imaginarynumber1]

If I confused you , I didn't mean to. I'm looking at the people and Jesus was a person.

If he didn't exist why then did the kill his followers is my point, silly.

And my point is that people have done many things throughout history for people/gods that didn't exist.

[Careful_perspective]

If I confused you , I didn't mean to. I'm looking at the people and Jesus was a person.

If he didn't exist why then did the kill his followers is my point, silly.

Many revisionist historians say that many Christians weren't killed, that the number is highly inflated. I personally believe it is NOT inflated (due to the research I have done, though I am no historian), and the fact so many Christians willingly died is part of the reason I believe. At that time the Jews hated them, the Pagans hated them. It was easy to hate this group of people who followed Christ like a cult. These people must have heard or saw something that convinced them Christ was the son of God, something that would allow them to set aside all their current beliefs. I don't know many people who would die for their beliefs. Most humans, by nature, institutionally put their survival before their beliefs. Yet these people didn't, they didn't put aside their beliefs. And anyway, if its all a lie, it has still changed my life for the better and I am grateful.

[shrooma]

i don't know many people who would die for their beliefs.

.

I know lots of people who are willing to dye their hair.....

.

[Grandpa Greenman]

i have notice that those who don't believe in the bible just state that the person in question simply never existed.

so my question is how long before mr. king becomes one of those who is only a legend.

That is Dr. King, He had a PhD.

Maybe if the person in question would have actually done some of his own writing and got a degree from a major university it may have helped. When it comes to history you have look at the amount of sources current to the time you can come up with. In the case of Jesus the only source you really have is in the Bible and it is not current to his life time. It is kind of like King Arthur, there is a lot of literature about him, but none of it can be shown as current to his life or points to a live person. In the case of Jesus there may have been a Jesus, but how much of what was written about him is true.

[Grandpa Greenman]

It just doesn't make any sense that Jesus never existed. when they were killing Christ ians just because they loved , believed and followed him ? did they keep good records of all the people they killed back then

Killing people was a Roman sport. They killed all kinds of people long before Christians came a long just for sport. It wasn't that they loved Jesus it was that they didn't follow the law of also worshiping the emperor and doing animal sacrifices to him. They use to kill Druids on sight, does that make the Celtic Gods and Goddesses real beings.

[+HerNibs]

There needs to be evidence to support if someone is "real".

Here is a nice list of biblical figures that have other evidence.

Clicky

Nibs

[ellapenella]

Many revisionist historians say that many Christians weren't killed, that the number is highly inflated. I personally believe it is NOT inflated (due to the research I have done, though I am no historian), and the fact so many Christians willingly died is part of the reason I believe. At that time the Jews hated them, the Pagans hated them. It was easy to hate this group of people who followed Christ like a cult. These people must have heard or saw something that convinced them Christ was the son of God, something that would allow them to set aside all their current beliefs. I don't know many people who would die for their beliefs. Most humans, by nature, institutionally put their survival before their beliefs. Yet these people didn't, they didn't put aside their beliefs. And anyway, if its all a lie, it has still changed my life for the better and I am grateful.

I don't know if it's inflated ot not. Most likely people were killed, I think under Nero . Many were Jews that followed Christ . Many people also say that the number of individuals killed in germany under Hitler was infalted.

[ellapenella]

Killing people was a Roman sport. They killed all kinds of people long before Christians came a long just for sport. It wasn't that they loved Jesus it was that they didn't follow the law of also worshiping the emperor and doing animal sacrifices to him. They use to kill Druids on sight, does that make the Celtic Gods and Goddesses real beings.

I get what you're saying. They killed anyone who was in the way. No room for empathy.

[Doug1029]

According to Jerome, Christians were blamed for the earthquake that destroyed Antioch. Ignatius, being a Christian, was arrested and tried for the offense. Trajan didn't think he was guilty, but then, he had no evidence that he wasn't and the crowd was demanding death, so he sentenced him to death in the arena. But that was the arena at Antioch, one week after the quake. There was no grand tour with Ignatius' guards (whom he called "ten vicious leopards") solicitously accompanying him around the empire and sitting quietly by while he wrote letters and received visitors.

Jerome doesn't say exactly how he was killed, only that he was.

Doug

[Stubbly_Dooright]

If the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, why does the decline in Caribbean pirating correlate with rising global temperature?

Ok, major confused. How is it? Maybe it's just me, but I thought the flying spaghetti monster was just an example. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And yes, I am at a lost, and probably suffering from dweebism, but pirates and global temperatures?

I wonder, if he never existed then why did all that happen. And if they kept good accounts of all the people they killed?

The thread is about people who disappeared from history right ?There's a story someplace in the bible about a christian

lady who gave birth there, oh my goodness what they did for entertainment was terrible.

You're so fortunate to have gone there. I would love to leave America and just actually move to Europe one day.

Yeah, that arena is probably a place that would stick in history because of the incidents you just mentioned. When I was there, all i could see were cats. Well, little cats, not the big ones that were probably the ones foisted upon such unfortunate victims. You know, remembering back to not just the cats, and what was left of the crumbling monument, but I felt sadness there. Sometimes you wonder, after being glad certain things, collosseums and such still being around to teach us our history, but so is the emotions that some feel there as well.

And my point is that people have done many things throughout history for people/gods that didn't exist.

Well for me, sometimes I wonder yeah, why did these things happen, even if what they happened for some cannot prove it. I sometimes wonder, like urban legends, how did they become urban legends in the first place. I understand what you are saying, but I think there are both sides to this.

[+HerNibs]

Ok, major confused. How is it? Maybe it's just me, but I thought the flying spaghetti monster was just an example. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And yes, I am at a lost, and probably suffering from dweebism, but pirates and global temperatures?

Yeah, that arena is probably a place that would stick in history because of the incidents you just mentioned. When I was there, all i could see were cats. Well, little cats, not the big ones that were probably the ones foisted upon such unfortunate victims. You know, remembering back to not just the cats, and what was left of the crumbling monument, but I felt sadness there. Sometimes you wonder, after being glad certain things, collosseums and such still being around to teach us our history, but so is the emotions that some feel there as well.

Well for me, sometimes I wonder yeah, why did these things happen, even if what they happened for some cannot prove it. I sometimes wonder, like urban legends, how did they become urban legends in the first place. I understand what you are saying, but I think there are both sides to this.

Pirates and global warming.

These disappearances are nothing but a tempest in Russell's Teapot.

Nibs

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Pirates and global warming.

These disappearances are nothing but a tempest in Russell's Teapot.

Nibs

thanks for the link. Ahhhhhhhh, so that what it means!! Now, I get it.

[Grandpa Greenman]

I don't know many people who would die for their beliefs.

You must not watch the news, because people do it all the time. Sometimes they are called martyrs, now a days we call them suicide bombers. All depends on whose side you're on. It doesn't make make what they are dying for true, only that it was true for them at the time. Here is one example from US history of people dieing for their beliefs, Wounded Knee. They thought Jesus lift into the air to safety if they danced the Ghost Dance. Well Jesus didn't show up and they died for their beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre