Ra-Men Podcast - Evidence of Jesus

[Rafterman]

Really enjoyed this week's Ra-Men podcast hosted by Aron Ra and Mark Nebo about the evidence (or lack thereof) of an historical Jesus. The guest is Dr. Robert Price who, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the more brilliant theologians and experts on Biblical criticism that's out there right now. His books and his Bible Geek podcast were paramount in my deconversion.

Dr. Price has changed his views in recent years from believing that Jesus Christ existed, but was basically a carny faith healer type, to now fully embracing the theory that the man we know as Jesus Christ never really existed and was simply a cobbling together of common messiah stories to fit the needs of the fledgling church.

For the believers, I challenge you to give it a listen and, if you're so intrigued, do your own research on the topic of Christ's existence.

Enjoy.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/theramen/ra-men-ep15-evidence-of-jesus

We talk with Dr. Robert Price, the atheist theologian, an expert on Biblical history and professor of Biblical criticism at the center for Inquiry; author of The Empty Tomb, Deconstructing Jesus, The Da Vinci Fraud, The Case Against The Case For Christ, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, and many others. The subject will be the alleged evidence of an historic Jesus. Specifically we will address the claims attributed to Titus Flavius Josephus.

[Dark_Grey]

Love a good podcast - will bookmark this one. Thanks Rafter.

[Rafterman]

Love a good podcast - will bookmark this one. Thanks Rafter.

It's a good podcast - unfortunately they need to up their game on the technical and production side a bit.

[Dark_Grey]

The podcast app I used on my phone (primary way I access podcasts,) will auto-fill with all the episodes of a subscribed podcast. I've never heard of Ra-Men until today and they look like they cover some topics I'm interested in. Not sure how many episodes they have out but I got 35 right now.

[+Link of Hyrule]

I listened to one of their earlier podcasts and doubt my view of them will change. They present one side of the debate, and without the other side it's not complete. It's like going to church - very good for confirming what we already believe.

[Occult1]

Dr. Price has changed his views in recent years from believing that Jesus Christ existed, but was basically a carny faith healer type, to now fully embracing the theory that the man we know as Jesus Christ never really existed and was simply a cobbling together of common messiah stories to fit the needs of the fledgling church.

I kind of relate more to his initial hypothesis, the consensus among scholars of antiquity that a man called 'Jesus' truly existed who had a great impact on some people. It seems very likely to me that mythological aspects were appended to it's life story, to underline and give credence to the claims of the One 'messiah' but I won't go as far as claiming that there isn't at least a grain of truth a the bottom of the 4 Gospels by denying his very existence. I have no problem with the historicity of the New Testament. There is sufficiant evidence in my view to support the facticity of Jesus's life on earth about 2000 years ago, the point of contentions are actually more about the miraculous events, nativity and claims of resurection which draw on the supernatural and remain to this day a matter of religious beliefs.

I would very much agree that the challenge when studying ancient texts is to try to differentiate the authentic historical facts from the (possible) inventions, alterations and exagerations, thanks to credulity and wishful thinking.

Edited February 10, 2015 by samus

[Rafterman]

The podcast app I used on my phone (primary way I access podcasts,) will auto-fill with all the episodes of a subscribed podcast. I've never heard of Ra-Men until today and they look like they cover some topics I'm interested in. Not sure how many episodes they have out but I got 35 right now.

Ra has been a leader in the atheist community for some time, but the podcast only started last year. He's got a lot of good episodes if you can handle the technical and production limitations.

[Rafterman]

I listened to one of their earlier podcasts and doubt my view of them will change. They present one side of the debate, and without the other side it's not complete. It's like going to church - very good for confirming what we already believe.

But the question has to get asked, what does the evidence show. I would welcome and frankly enjoy seeing any counter evidence to what Dr. Price and others present.

BTW, I see what you did there with the church comment.

[Dark_Grey]

I have no problem with the historicity of the New Testament. There is sufficiant evidence in my view to support the facticity of Jesus's life on earth about 2000 years ago

Do tell...

Actually in the middle of listening to the podcast now and one of the primary points is that none of the events surrounding Jesus life in the Bible aligns with known historical events. Basically he's arguing that the timeline for Jesus supposed life, is a timeline that doesn't make sense from a historical standpoint. You can't place him in history based on descriptions of the time in which he lived.

[+Link of Hyrule]

But the question has to get asked, what does the evidence show. I would welcome and frankly enjoy seeing any counter evidence to what Dr. Price and others present.

BTW, I see what you did there with the church comment.

I'm not sure if this is the third or fourth or fifth (or more) podcasts of Aron-Ra you've begun a thread on, but the first time I listened to it and gave my thoughts. The second time I saw a thread I simply said that it was only showing one side of things, to which - and this is why I made this comment I did today - someone replied that the same thing happens in church. I couldn't disagree with that, so this time when I replied I made the link myself to hearing only one side of the discussion that leads people to confirming what they already believed. At least that is how I remember things going down in those previous threads.

I'm not sure what you think I was intending to make out of a comparison between this and church, but that was my reasoning behind the comment I made.

[Occult1]

Do tell...

You may start here: https://en.wikipedia...te-Grant1977-60

This page is full of interesting references leading to the works of various scholars such as Michale Grant, Richar A. Burridge, Bart D. Erheman, Mark Allen, John Dominic Crossan or James D.G Dunn. There is little doubt that a man named Jesus once existed but of course we ''weren't there'' so we have to take the material available and study it critically and see how much of it pass the test of historicity. Even if very little of the 4 gospels meet the criterias of historicity, it doesn't mean none of it can yield any kind of reliable information.

That a man named Jesus was crucified can be considered historical fact.

''Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.^[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.^[8] However, Richard Carrier has suggested that the 'Christ, the author of this name, was executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius' line is a Christian interpolation.^[9][10]''

Source: https://en.wikipedia...citus_on_Christ

Here we have two independant non-christian sources (one Jewish [Josephus] and the other Roman [Tacitus]) who agree on a basic fact: A man named Jesus was crucified. The Roman historian Tacitus is very harsh on Christians which makes the claim of a forgery very unlikely. That is to me sufficiant evidence to accept that a man named Jesus truly existed.

As scholar Michael Grant points out:

''If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned''

Source: Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant (1977)

Edited February 10, 2015 by samus

[Occult1]

I would welcome and frankly enjoy seeing any counter evidence to what Dr. Price and others present

I haven't listened to this podcast yet, but I may when I find the time. I know a bit about Robert Price's viewpoint though. However, it should be mentionned here that there is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically, and that Robert Price remains in the margin, as it admit it himself. His own counter evidence did not convinced the vast majority of classical historians and, concidentally, his views on Jesus's historicity are only popular among certain Atheists with a strong bias against religion.

Edited February 10, 2015 by samus

[Dark_Grey]

You may start here: https://en.wikipedia...te-Grant1977-60

[...]

Thanks for the detailed response. When you have time, I recommend you give the podcast a listen as all of the points you brought up, including the sources of Josephus and Tacitus, are given counter-evidence. Interesting stuff..

[Davros of Skaro]

Thanks Rafterman!

Btw: Anyone new to the myth position, check out the two lectures in my Signature.The first is more like an introduction and the second is right to the Meat and Bones.

[Rafterman]

I'm not sure if this is the third or fourth or fifth (or more) podcasts of Aron-Ra you've begun a thread on, but the first time I listened to it and gave my thoughts. The second time I saw a thread I simply said that it was only showing one side of things, to which - and this is why I made this comment I did today - someone replied that the same thing happens in church. I couldn't disagree with that, so this time when I replied I made the link myself to hearing only one side of the discussion that leads people to confirming what they already believed. At least that is how I remember things going down in those previous threads.

I'm not sure what you think I was intending to make out of a comparison between this and church, but that was my reasoning behind the comment I made.

My point was that a very common dig against atheists by believers is that atheism is that they have simply replaced one religion for another and one set of beliefs for another - and that's simply incorrect. Taking a stand for rationalism and against superstition is not "replacing one religion for another".

[+Link of Hyrule]

My point was that a very common dig against atheists by believers is that atheism is that they have simply replaced one religion for another and one set of beliefs for another - and that's simply incorrect. Taking a stand for rationalism and against superstition is not "replacing one religion for another".

And my point was that this podcast is very good for confirming to people what they already believe, and without a voice there to point out the other side of the debate that is about the best it is good for.

[Dark_Grey]

You may start here: https://en.wikipedia...te-Grant1977-60

[...]

Source: Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant (1977)

If I had the motivation I would listen to the podcast again and make a list of bullet points so we could dissect these arguments one by one. Sadly, it's only Wednesday and motivation for me doesn't kick in until Friday (afternoon). I agree with you in that there most likely was a man named Jesus who had a (small) following. I think the conclusion we can draw from examining both sides is one of two.

Either,

i) Jesus did not exist and the stories about him are a combination of multiple external sources from nearby cultures.

ii) A man named Jesus did exist and was a prophet of sorts but was not the son of God and did not have special powers

Option 2 seems the most reasonable as there are a few references to a Jesus type character but there are no records of a man from Judea performing incredible miracles and feats. Surely, at any point in history, if there was a man who could literally do MAGIC the stories would spread like wildfire. We would have texts from the Egyptians (especially given the close proximity of Egypt to Israel,) Greece, Caanan, etc

The miracles alone would have caused countless thousands to bow down in worship. If you saw someone heal a man's blindness by touching his face wouldn't you be a believer? But alas, no such stories. Just a handful of second-hand rumors written down by record keepers.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Dark_Grey

[Rafterman]

I haven't listened to this podcast yet, but I may when I find the time. I know a bit about Robert Price's viewpoint though. However, it should be mentionned here that there is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically, and that Robert Price remains in the margin, as it admit it himself. His own counter evidence did not convinced the vast majority of classical historians and, concidentally, his views on Jesus's historicity are only popular among certain Atheists with a strong bias against religion.

While that may be true, I think we also have to admit that there is a growing group of scholars who is taking a fresh look at the historicity of Jesus and more and more are beginning to doubt his existence. Even your own links state that Tacitus and Josephus are the primary sources and, frankly, I find there is a lot to question with the authenticity of their claims. I also find your last sentence interesting in that the same claim can be made against those who support the historicity of Jesus - particularly those scholars who are apologists and/or members of the clergy.

[Rafterman]

And my point was that this podcast is very good for confirming to people what they already believe, and without a voice there to point out the other side of the debate that is about the best it is good for.

Point taken - but sadly, many believers don't even know there is an "other side" to the discussion. I know I certainly didn't for many years.

[Occult1]

ii) A man named Jesus did exist and was a prophet of sorts but was not the son of God and did not have special powers

I agree with that, but you know, a religion is a matter of a beliefs and faith. If it were not then we might call it known facts or science.

The miracles alone would have caused countless thousands to bow down in worship. If you saw someone heal a man's blindness by touching his face wouldn't you be a believer? But alas, no such stories. Just a handful of second-hand rumors written down by record keepers.

I think we can say that Jesus did attracted lots of attentions. There has to be a reason why a man is crucified and made such noise in history. I am inclined to accept the notion that Jesus was perceived as a threat for the establishement and the status quo which benefited the man of powers. Now that doesn't mean Jesus had 'special powers' as you mentionned, only that he had a growing influence to the detriment of some people.

Edited February 11, 2015 by samus

[Occult1]

While that may be true, I think we also have to admit that there is a growing group of scholars who is taking a fresh look at the historicity of Jesus and more and more are beginning to doubt his existence.

We know that the Jesus-Myth theory is mostly supported by 3 credible biblical scholars, namely Robert M. Price, Richard Carrier and Thomas L. Brodie

I also find your last sentence interesting in that the same claim can be made against those who support the historicity of Jesus - particularly those scholars who are apologists and/or members of the clergy.

Of course, but these days, a lot of scholars of christianity are secular scholars. But obviously you need to have a huge interest in the history of religion in the first place to devote your life to the study of ancient religious texts. Many come from religious background of which they are critical and have grown more skeptical about. Even Robert M. Price was a Baptist minister before converting to 'Christian atheism' as he sometimes defines himself.

Edited February 11, 2015 by samus

[Dark_Grey]

I think we can say that Jesus did attracted lots of attentions. There has to be a reason why a man is crucified and made such noise in history. I am inclined to accept the notion that Jesus was perceived as a threat for the establishement and the status quo which benefited the man of powers. Now that doesn't mean Jesus had 'speical powers' as you mentionned, only that he had a growing influence to the detriment of some people.

I have to do a little more homework, but in this same podcast the speaker mentioned a historical Jesus was apparently an ugly, crazy short guy who was preaching a lot of anti-orthodox messages. Enough so that, like the Bible mentions, the Pharisees finally reaching a boiling point and decided that it was time to get rid of the heretic. It doesn't sound like the entire foundation of Judaism was shaken, it sounds more like a disturbance on a local level. It sounds like if it wasn't for the recordings of crazy, homeless Jesus' followers the Hebrews would have forgotten about him altogether. Again, I'll have to do a little home work on this guy but he sounds like a possible candidate. Inflate the story with a little pizzaz from Horus, Dionysus, etc and voila: you have a great messiah story that flies under the radar until Christianity and Rome form an (un)holy alliance and steamroll the ancient near east.

[Imaginarynumber1]

I always enjoyed the interpretation by the characters in Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum:

“Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are a bunch of practical jokers who meet somewhere and decide to have a contest. They invent a character, agree on a few basic facts, and then each one's free to take it and run with it. At the end, they'll see who's done the best job. The four stories are picked up by some friends who act as critics: Matthew is fairly realistic, but insists on that Messiah business too much: Mark isn't bad, just a little sloppy: Luke is elegant, no denying that; and John takes the philosophy a little too far. Actually, though, the books have an appeal, they circulate, and when the four realize what's happening, it's too late, Paul has already met Jesus on the road to Damascus, Pliny begins his investigation ordered by the worried emperor, and a legion of apocryphal writers pretends also to know plenty....It all goes to Peter's head; he takes himself seriously. John threatens to tell the truth, Peter and Paul have him chained up on the island of Patmos.”