62 replies to this topic

[with bells on]

and then, on 31 October 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Sounds an awful lot like the original lie told in the garden.  Ye shall be as god - knowing good from evil AND ye shall NOT surely die.  What I'm saying, Bells, is that we've been trying to get it all together for millennia - things are as bad with the human spirit as they ever were.  But today our decisions can kill the whole planet instead of just the village beyond the next hills.  He IS coming again soon.  I expect Him to be large and in charge and when the dust clears the survivors are going to wonder WHY we couldn't have had this peace all along....  A better day is coming - mostly because it can't get much worse and life continue.

ok.. its pretty clear im anti religion.. esp christianity.. but i am deeply spiritual and connected to that world.. so for me i see things diff to others, cause i can see how distorted it all is.. the thing is the last few years (esp the last two) all those fields and dimensions have been, being cleared of this dark crap.. and its starting to look a lot lighter.. i assume by "He" and "Him" your talking about a new saviour coming, like the Jesus character they planted on the world.. there is no him and he IMO.. there is a consciousness coming.. an energy.. and everyone will eventualy see that they were the ones that they were waiting for.. it was never some outside figure who saves the day, it all came and comes from within..

im also anti a lot of the new age crap.. it all seemed so fresh and light and loving, yet it was the same rubbish that they peddled out, like religion.. it all became about money..

being spriritual just is.. there is no book, shame or church.. it doesnt even have to be anything more than liking nature, or laughing at a joke..

[Amalthe]

The explanation of the passage is simple: Upon return of God on Earth, all nations will be judged acording to their deeds, and will receive punishment or reward accordingly. For people who rejected the spirit of God (kindness and altruism which resides in the hearts of men no matter what faith they are) the punishment will be death. So most of nations will be executed in fire, for evil will not exist in universe anymore. This will be just trial, and every individual will be shown his deeds compared to deeds of Jesus, and he will agree to the justice performed on them, no matter what religion does he belong to.

[docyabut2]

Jesus was telling a story about a king` judgement,those were the kings words, not Jesus`s:)

[Abramelin]

Karlis, on 31 October 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Abramelin, many Bible commentators accept that in this parable Jesus was making a double-reference:
***to the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD,
***and to his return (still in our future) as King to rule Earth.

Jesus was rejected as “Messiah” by the ruling Jews of his day, as seen in Jesus’ parable,

Luk 19:14  But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Scriptures also show that Jesus will be rejected by the world’s nations as “Messiah”, at his next return. Scriptures state that nations will gather a huge army to fight against him; and afterwards Jesus will establish his Kingdom to rule Earth:

Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Very briefly, that in my opinion is the answer to the question in your OP.

That said ... and I'm going by remarks in some of the posts in this thread ... if you were intending to "swat" the Bible, why not do it in a straightforward manner?

Karlis

To start with your last line:

I found the quote purely by accident. On some site someone quoted Luke 19:27, and my first thought was: "That must be bs."

But I don't know the Bible by heart, so I checked, and thought "Damn, it's really in there!"

Of course I read a bit further, and I understood it was a parable about people rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.

But that still leaves that last line. Or in other words:  does the analogy with Jesus stop before that line or should people be killed for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah?

If that is 'swatting' the Bible, so be it.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 31 October 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Abramelin]

Amalthe, on 31 October 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

The explanation of the passage is simple: Upon return of God on Earth, all nations will be judged acording to their deeds, and will receive punishment or reward accordingly. For people who rejected the spirit of God (kindness and altruism which resides in the hearts of men no matter what faith they are) the punishment will be death. So most of nations will be executed in fire, for evil will not exist in universe anymore. This will be just trial, and every individual will be shown his deeds compared to deeds of Jesus, and he will agree to the justice performed on them, no matter what religion does he belong to.

There are kind and altruistic people of other faiths or those who have no faith at all.

So basically you agree with my interpretation: accept Jesus and be saved, don't accept Jesus and be killed.

[Karlis]

Abramelin, on 31 October 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

~~~ ...

... So basically  ... my interpretation: accept Jesus and be saved, don't accept Jesus and be killed.

Hi Abramelin,

What you write above is Scripturally correct, in my opinion. However, there are many more aspects to consider:

The key aspect in my opinion revolves around the potential of being resurrected as an immortal family member in God's Family (with Jesus our elder brother). That -- or ceasing to exist.

[eight bits]

Maybe an aggie can be of some help here. Luke tells us at the outset that he is building up his narrative from earlier sources. One of the predictable problems of doing that in a biography of a storyteller is the possibility of combining two distinct stories as if they were one story.

That's apparently what happened here. 19: 11-27 is two stories. Story I is the servants who invest with varying degrees of success, and the one who makes the most gets more at the expense of the least productive one. We see that story in Matthew (one of Luke's sources) 25: 14-30. Obviously, Story I has nothing to do with the Temple, the rejection of Jesus as Messiah, or any of that sort of thing.

Story II, the "rejected king," is not otherwise canonical. It appears to be a historical reference. You may recall that when the Herod the Great died, his son, Herod Archelaus, went to Rome seeking the kingship his father had. A delegation of Jews also went to Rome to oppose this. Archelaus didn't get the title, but did get to rule over Judea and Samaria. He supposedly killed lots of political enemies both before and after his trip to Rome. His rule was a disaster, and led to the direct Roman rule over the area which includes Jerusalem in Jesus' time.

I find to my horror that even Wikipedia seems to know this. A chill runs down my spine.

Oh, well, finishing up. The run-together story is introduced with an explanation (19: 11) that Jesus, on his way to Jerusalem, is correcting people who think the Kingdom is coming right there and then. Since the servant-investment story has nothing to do with that, it must be the Archelaus story that's the correction. What point Jesus was making is unclear: maybe we have the beginning of something, and have lost his application of the backstory to the current situation.

In any case, there is nothing on the page that has anything to do with the Temple, the rejection of Jesus as Messiah, or any of that sort of thing. Under the circumstances, then, it appears we can answer your question,

Quote

should people be killed for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah?

Since neither story being smushed together has anything to do with the Messianic recognition problem, and the murder of political adversaries is what actually happened in one of the stories, we can conclude that the text is silent on what will be done with those who don't accept Jesus as their Messiah. My recollection is that elsewhere in the canon Jesus asked the Father to forgive those involved in his crucifixion; since he didn't say otherwise, I would have assumed he meant everybody involved.

Edited by eight bits, 31 October 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[joc]

This is really not that complicated:

Zacheus was a rich man...and Jesus wanted to eat with him.
The people were condemning Jesus for it because they perceived Zacheus as a sinner.
Zacheus in his defense told Jesus that he gave half of everything he made to the poor and always sought to right a wrong if he had commited one.
Jesus told him he was blessed...and then:

He told a parable.   The parable was a comparison of Rich Sinners to Zacheus.  That is all.   The Nobleman in the parable was ruthless..all he cared about was his own money and power.  At the end he says...bring those who didn't want me to rule over them and kill them in front of me.  This is a direct comparison to a hypothetical Rich Sinner and Zacheus.

[scowl]

docyabut2, on 31 October 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Jesus was telling a story about a king` judgement,those were the kings words, not Jesus`s:)

This is the known as The Parable of the Harsh Master.

Someone was flipping through the Bible too quickly.

[shadowhive]

and then, on 31 October 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

Sounds an awful lot like the original lie told in the garden.  Ye shall be as god - knowing good from evil AND ye shall NOT surely die.  What I'm saying, Bells, is that we've been trying to get it all together for millennia - things are as bad with the human spirit as they ever were.  But today our decisions can kill the whole planet instead of just the village beyond the next hills.  He IS coming again soon.  I expect Him to be large and in charge and when the dust clears the survivors are going to wonder WHY we couldn't have had this peace all along....  A better day is coming - mostly because it can't get much worse and life continue.

There are better ways to make peace than an enforced dictatorship by a third party. What you hope for is actually quite disgusting. The amount of death and destruction that you are actuallly HOPING for is horrible and I really can't believe a person that claims to want peace would condone it. I'm so glad it's all a lie and will never come to pass.

And if it does? Your god will be resisted not because of people's 'freedom to siin' but because he'd be a hycritcal mass murderer. That, and people generally don't take too kindly to dictatorships.

No wonder the world is so screwed up, with people like you actually hoping for the suffering and death of others.

Edited by shadowhive, 31 October 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[Amalthe]

shadowhive, on 31 October 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

There are better ways to make peace than an enforced dictatorship by a third party. What you hope for is actually quite disgusting. The amount of death and destruction that you are actuallly HOPING for is horrible and I really can't believe a person that claims to want peace would condone it. I'm so glad it's all a lie and will never come to pass.

And if it does? Your god will be resisted not because of people's 'freedom to siin' but because he'd be a hycritcal mass murderer. That, and people generally don't take too kindly to dictatorships.

No wonder the world is so screwed up, with people like you actually hoping for the suffering and death of others.

A christian that hopes for death and destruction of millions, even if they be enemies of christianity, is no christian at all.  Jesus is quite precise on this, it is not upon humans to deliver revenge by their hands. Truth is that such terrible destruction will come to pass, not by the hand of God, but the hands of Men. If you check the ideas of international elite rulers, earth is overcrowded and overpopulated, so the Final plan is set in motion to "correct" the population number by war, famine and disease.

[joc]

Amalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

A christian that hopes for death and destruction of millions, even if they be enemies of christianity, is no christian at all.  Jesus is quite precise on this, it is not upon humans to deliver revenge by their hands. Truth is that such terrible destruction will come to pass, not by the hand of God, but the hands of Men. If you check the ideas of international elite rulers, earth is overcrowded and overpopulated, so the Final plan is set in motion to "correct" the population number by war, famine and disease.

Amalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

A christian that hopes for death and destruction of millions, even if they be enemies of christianity, is no christian at all.  Jesus is quite precise on this, it is not upon humans to deliver revenge by their hands. Truth is that such terrible destruction will come to pass, not by the hand of God, but the hands of Men. If you check the ideas of international elite rulers, earth is overcrowded and overpopulated, so the Final plan is set in motion to "correct" the population number by war, famine and disease.

Yep, 'ats just what we neeed....gimme one of them good ol' fashion Atom Bomb wars...   'at'll solve a whole lot of them there problems yur talkin' 'bout!

[SpiritWriter]

Abramelin, on 31 October 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

There are kind and altruistic people of other faiths or those who have no faith at all.

So basically you agree with my interpretation: accept Jesus and be saved, don't accept Jesus and be killed.

I strongly do NOT agree with your interpretation. Are you trying to say that only people outside of Christianity are altruistic and that Jesus would have you be killed if you didn't believe in him? First of all Jesus has the power to SAVE and in doing so, you would believe in him. If he has shown himself to you - and you deny it, then it is in that case, that you CHOOSE spiritual death, only because you have rejected spiritual LIFE. Second of all, Jesus teaches compassion, not killing. You can do as much research on this subject as you want, and you will not find Jesus promoting killing of any kind.... the OP, the single thread of scripture in this Luke 19:27, has already been explained in several comments. He is speaking in parable and not talking about an action that he took or would take. Another underlying comparison in this story is the fact that the kingdoms as we see them, is not the same kind that he represents. He is not the killing king, he is the Prince of Peace. Unfortunately, others who would loose their authority with the spread of righteousness would want to kill.  Let's not forget that Jesus (and many of his fore-runners)was the one who was murdered.

[scowl]

SpiritWriter, on 05 November 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Second of all, Jesus teaches compassion, not killing. You can do as much research on this subject as you want, and you will not find Jesus promoting killing of any kind....

Matthew 10:14-15 said all cities who reject Jesus will be destroyed: "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Matthew 15:14 showed that Jesus promoted the Mosaic law that disrespectful children should be executed: "God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."

Although it's not Jesus, Paul goes on a tear in 1 Romans 1:32 screaming about "backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents," and so on. He ended it saying "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Not only these people but people who support them should be killed.

And of course Jesus's description of the end of the world with plagues, earthquakes and so on involved plenty of death.

[SpiritWriter]

Deleted my post because it didn't sound right... I'll be back.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 05 November 2012 - 09:41 PM.