163 replies to this topic

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

Unfortunately I do not accept any of you statements as fair reflections of the facts. The EU played a significant and dominant part in maintaining peace across Europe but had no democratic remit to intervene in the sovereign states of former Yugoslavia. Would you have had the EU invade Yugoslavia ?? I am certain you would not.
.

Br Cornelius

No, it was left to NATO, meaning once again the US being persuaded to join in a European conflict, as usual.

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

The EU has a remit to regulate trade and disputes between its member states, and it has done so admirably. It has created a fair and equitable system of justice which is binding on all member states and which prevents illegal exploitation of a weaker state by a stronger one.

Br Cornelius

instead, the European Central Bank can blackmail weaker states by threatening to withhold bailouts unless the weaker states do just what the Central Bank (representing, of course, the Big Powerful countries) tell them to. No, that isn't exploitation of a weaker state by a stronger one in any way, shape or form, is it, no.

[Br Cornelius]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

No, it was left to NATO, meaning once again the US being persuaded to join in a European conflict, as usual.


instead, the European Central Bank can blackmail weaker states by threatening to withhold bailouts unless the weaker states do just what the Central Bank (representing, of course, the Big Powerful countries) tell them to. No, that isn't exploitation of a weaker state by a stronger one in any way, shape or form, is it, no.

So you do advocate the EU invading a sovereign state to settle internal disputes - maybe your'd like to write to the commission and suggest they allocate that right to themselves. On closer thought I doubt you would advocate that considering your general stance on the EU. So damn consistent.
You see NATO actually had that remit.
Do you want Europe to have a standing army ?? that's where your thinking leads to.


Do you understand what would have happened to those self same states if they had have had to have gone directly to the IMF ? The outcome would have been entirely worse. Do you think that a country which willfully bankrupts itself has the right to dictate terms to the countries/banks/federations which are assisting it in not descending into chaos ??

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 February 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

itsnotoutthere, on 24 February 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Except of course we do get a chance to vote  them out every five years (not that theres much between them these days).
(p.s. you've used the term 'johnny foreigner' twice now & to be honest it's starting to sound a bit racist)

Unfortunately it perfectly describes where most of the Euroskeptics are coming from, an innate sense of superiority and racism.
You have the same right to elect MEP's and your sovereign Government has the right to recall its commissioners if it feels they are not acting in their interests. However most power rests in the hands of Civil servants over which you have little power on a domestic or European level.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 February 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[itsnotoutthere]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Unfortunately it perfectly describes where most of the Euroskeptics are coming from, an innate sense of superiority and racism.
You have the same right to elect MEP's and your sovereign Government has the right to recall its commissioners if it feels they are not acting in their interests. However most power rests in the hands of Civil servants over which you have little power on a domestic or European level.


Br Cornelius

Well, as somebody with a left leaning ideology i suppose it was only a matter of time before you would associate the subject of racism with a total unconnected subject.
It's what the left do & I suspect that it's a message that a large chunk of the money mentioned in the OP will be designated at pushing.
Remember, definition of a racist ..'somebody who ls winning an argument with a liberal'

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 24 February 2013 - 01:12 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

If the cap fits ....

Br Cornelius

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Unfortunately it perfectly describes where most of the Euroskeptics are coming from, an innate sense of superiority and racism.
You have the same right to elect MEP's and your sovereign Government has the right to recall its commissioners if it feels they are not acting in their interests. However most power rests in the hands of Civil servants over which you have little power on a domestic or European level.


Br Cornelius

Ah, the Racism card has come out. Is there an equivalent of Godwin's law for deployment of the Racism card?

[Br Cornelius]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Ah, the Racism card has come out. Is there an equivalent of Godwin's law for deployment of the Racism card?

Johnny Foreigner - get off my country !!!

When you all can admit that the Eu has been generally good for the UK economy, I can start to believe that I am having a rational debate with people who are open to evidence. Until then, all I see is prejudice.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 February 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 12:55 PM, said:

So you do advocate the EU invading a sovereign state to settle internal disputes - maybe your'd like to write to the commission and suggest they allocate that right to themselves. On closer thought I doubt you would advocate that considering your general stance on the EU. So damn consistent.
You see NATO actually had that remit.
Do you want Europe to have a standing army ?? that's where your thinking leads to.




Br Cornelius

So the EU had absolutely no power to do anything to prevent wars, except to discourage Germany from invading France yet again. You say it yourself. The EU's claim to have secured Peace in Europe is really very limited, and pretty shallow, since with the overriding geopolitical situation, that was never likely to happen even if the EU hadn't been there. And if they could do nothing about anywhere that was in Europe but was not part of the Empire, it was hardly Peace with Honour, was it? It was Peace by Looking the Other Way and saying it was Nothing to Do with Them.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Johnny Foreigner - get off my country !!!

When you all can admit that the Eu has been generally good for the UK economy, I can start to believe that I am having a rational debate with people who are open to evidence. Until then, all I see is prejudice.

Br Cornelius

sorry, Brother, but if you're just going to equate criticism of the EU with racism, then there's nothing more to say.

[Br Cornelius]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

So the EU had absolutely no power to do anything to prevent wars, except to discourage Germany from invading France yet again. You say it yourself. The EU's claim to have secured Peace in Europe is really very limited, and pretty shallow, since with the overriding geopolitical situation, that was never likely to happen even if the EU hadn't been there. And if they could do nothing about anywhere that was in Europe but was not part of the Empire, it was hardly Peace with Honour, was it? It was Peace by Looking the Other Way and saying it was Nothing to Do with Them.

it has prevented wars within the limits of its legal powers by offering fairness and dispute resolution mechanisms.
It cannot invade sovereign foreign countries.
It has secured peace through fairness, not intervention.

SIMPLE.

Br Cornelius

[Br Cornelius]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

So the EU had absolutely no power to do anything to prevent wars, except to discourage Germany from invading France yet again. You say it yourself. The EU's claim to have secured Peace in Europe is really very limited, and pretty shallow, since with the overriding geopolitical situation, that was never likely to happen even if the EU hadn't been there. And if they could do nothing about anywhere that was in Europe but was not part of the Empire, it was hardly Peace with Honour, was it? It was Peace by Looking the Other Way and saying it was Nothing to Do with Them.

As you may have realized by now - you cannot fight a country to peace, or have you learned nothing from the UK's little misadventures of late in the middle east.
If the former states of Yugoslavia had have been member states of the EU then the EU would have intervened to stop what happened. It had no such right or powers.

In the future, conflicts will be resolved through mediation and negation rather than tank and gun. The stakes are entirely to high to allow anything else.

Br Cornelius

[itsnotoutthere]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

Johnny Foreigner - get off my country !!!

When you all can admit that the Eu has been generally good for the UK economy, I can start to believe that I am having a rational debate with people who are open to evidence. Until then, all I see is prejudice.

Br Cornelius

As I said ...'it's what the left do'. Quelle surprise

Edited by itsnotoutthere, 24 February 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[itsnotoutthere]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

sorry, Brother, but if you're just going to equate criticism of the EU with racism, then there's nothing more to say.

It's a common tactic to try & gain the 'moral high ground' which I find becomes less effective the more it's used. And we'll be seeing more of it as we go along the road to a referendum.

[Br Cornelius]

Can I ask a simple side question.
What do the Euroskeptics feel about independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern ireland ?

Br Cornelius

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Hmmm, EU is democratic is it, so, who of you Europersons voted for Barroso or Van Rompoy or any EU commisar commisioner. And, when there is referendum in some eurocountry and vote is against EU, why is there then another vote shortly after to obtain "correct" result? how is this democratic?

As an idle speculation from an outside, though informed perspective, I can see a possible future where UK, an independant Flanders, Nederlands and the Nordic countries will form a block of their own. Who knows, anything seems possible in EU madhouse, perhaps one day you will need a friendly bear will help you in your time of distress.

Oh, excuse me, nothing to see here, simply protecting my post from contamination