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The Global Gun Control Threat

global gun control repeal second amendment

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#196    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 28 December 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Again, we are very close.  Ultimately we must ask the question regarding your last sentence: "Is it even POSSIBLE to prevent dangerous devices (that are protected by the Constitution) out of the hands of the wrong people?"

Your ultimate question is not specific enough.  Yes, I do think it is possible to prevent some dangerous devices from getting into the hands of some wrong people; the only grades here are not A+ and F, it's not 100% effective or it's worthless.  "Protected by the Constitution" doesn't mean anything to me, all amendments are subject to be interpreted more strictly or repealed altogether.  Of course it's possible, but I don't think you'd be comfortable with what would be required.  Do you think that a nationwide ban on ammunition and strict penalties on the inevitable black market that will spring up will do absolutely nothing over the course of decades to reduce gun deaths, compared to the free-for-all we have today?  If not, then doesn't that indicate that legislation at least has the potential to reduce gun deaths?  I realize something like this may have all kinds of other negative repercussions, but your point so far has largely been restricted to how worthless legislation is.

Quote

And I hate to say it LG, because I know what you'll say, but it is beginning to appear that the style of story telling and 'press releases' relevant to Sandy Hook is very similar to the style of story telling related to certain other staged events.  Yes, it's horrid, and I sure hope I'm wrong, but the similarities are downright spooky.

'Similarities' and 'spooky' as defined by you and based on your purely subjective opinion, a foundation which, for a reason I will never understand, does not seem to give you pause.  Of course when you are willing to come up with these odd, irrational rules that 'no evidence of a deception is evidence of a deception', it's no wonder how you arrive at these unsupported positions.

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#197    Babe Ruth

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

LG

Your claim that "it's possible" does not make it so.

And yes, I was pretty certain before, and thanks for confirming that what's protected by the USC doesn't mean anything to you.  That's rather the sticking point, besides your (commonly held) idea that passing some law, any law, whether it works or not law, will make you feel better.  You and Diane Feinstein and many more.

Yeah, I get it.  Let's do something, even if it has no effect, or even if it's wrong.  Let's do something so that it will look good.


#198    Stellar

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:44 PM

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We have been trying to do that for decades now to no avail, and if you include drugs too, for a century.

You see, I disagree with this statement right here. No, the use of drugs hasn't been eliminated, that is true... but I do firmly believe that the laws regarding drugs have prevented many more people from using the more extreme drugs. It was done through both legislation as well as education.

I do firmly believe that if there was no laws concerning drugs, many more people would be using cocaine, heroin, etc.

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#199    ninjadude

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:53 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 28 December 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

I do not carry, but have many friends that do.  In certain situations, I draw some measure of comfort when I am in their presence.  Same comfort I feel when in the presence of a cop.

weird. I have the exact opposite reaction. In fact, I have a cousin in law enforcement. Every time I went to his house I was uneasy knowing there was a gun in the house.

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#200    Sweetpumper

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

View Postninjadude, on 28 December 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

weird. I have the exact opposite reaction. In fact, I have a cousin in law enforcement. Every time I went to his house I was uneasy knowing there was a gun in the house.

I have three in the house and feel most comfortable at home.

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#201    Michelle

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:04 PM

View Postninjadude, on 28 December 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

weird. I have the exact opposite reaction. In fact, I have a cousin in law enforcement. Every time I went to his house I was uneasy knowing there was a gun in the house.

lol Sorry, but I find that pretty funny since there are over 1.4 million people in Illinois with Firearm Owner ID cards. That isn't even counting the people that aren't registered and with such a high crime rate I would imagine it is quite a few.


#202    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:12 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 28 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Your claim that "it's possible" does not make it so.

Hahahahaha!!  Oh the lack of self-awareness is priceless, would you like me to purchase a mirror for you?

Quote

And yes, I was pretty certain before, and thanks for confirming that what's protected by the USC doesn't mean anything to you.  That's rather the sticking point, besides your (commonly held) idea that passing some law, any law, whether it works or not law, will make you feel better.  You and Diane Feinstein and many more.

The sticking point is that you are incapable of moving beyond your shallow talking points, and will just strawman people if that suits you.  Why, it's almost like you were doing it to 'feel better' and given how vapid your point is, I can see why you would need to do that.

Quote me where I said, "that passing some law, any law, whether it works or not law, will make you feel better", or don't you care about accuracy and whether you are correctly representing other's statements?  Quit dodging my questions, it makes your 'argument' here look stupid; true or false, if we were to ban all guns and ammunition in this country, in 50 years do you think gun deaths would be reduced?  If you answer is false, please elaborate why you don't think it would make any difference at all, assuming you are capable of moving off your script.  If you think it's true, which I think it is, then why don't you put to rest the idea that 'more legislation won't make any difference' and perhaps move on to a deeper point if there is one.

As far as the USC, no, I didn't say that what's protected by the USC doesn't mean anything to me; I said that the things that the Constitution protects don't mean much to me simply by virtue that it is in the Constitution.  Things don't magically become good ideas just because they are in the Constitution, they are good ideas and principles by themselves; the USC is not of divine origin.  Lots of people have problems with the 16th Amendment allowing the collection of income tax, does 'the USC mean nothing to them' also?  Is the 'rightness' of the income tax sacred now just because it's in the USC?

Quote

Yeah, I get it.  Let's do something, even if it has no effect, or even if it's wrong.  Let's do something so that it will look good.

Yes, BR, when in doubt just go right back to square 1 and act as if that is not a straight repeat of what you said a few days ago that I objected to and like there's been no conversation since.  Better yet, why don't you get to work demonstrating that any possible law will have no effect.  The usual rules apply; your supposed expertise, ruminations about psychology, and ha, especially your interpretation of body language are not admissible.

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#203    ninjadude

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostMichelle, on 28 December 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

lol Sorry, but I find that pretty funny since there are over 1.4 million people in Illinois with Firearm Owner ID cards. That isn't even counting the people that aren't registered and with such a high crime rate I would imagine it is quite a few.

There are 315 million Americans. That's why we need the internet pages.

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#204    Michelle

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

View Postninjadude, on 28 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

There are 315 million Americans. That's why we need the internet pages.

And I was only talking about Illinois...clean your glasses, dude.


#205    AsteroidX

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 09:20 PM

Quote

what does the word 'unalienable' mean?

Here ya go. The Definition you requested. :gun:


Quote

un·al·ien·a·ble  (Posted Imagen-Posted ImagelPosted ImageyPosted Image-nPosted Image-bPosted Imagel, -Posted ImagePosted ImagelPosted Image-Posted Image-)
adj.
Not to be separated, given away, or taken away; inalienable: "All of them . . . claim unalienable dignity as individuals" (Garrison Keillor).



#206    odiesbsc

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:07 PM

Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster

"A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace."
- James Madison

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison

"The ultimate authority resides in the people alone."
- James Madison

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker

"... arms ... discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

" ... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton

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#207    AsteroidX

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:34 PM

American ideals dont have much to do with world gun control.


#208    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:26 AM

View Postodiesbsc, on 28 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

Who knows better what the Second Amendment means than the Founding Fathers? Here are some powerful gun quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.

Here are some more quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.  From the US Constitution:

Article I, Section. 2 [Slaves count as 3/5 persons]
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons [i.e., slaves].


Article I, Section. 9, clause 1. [No power to ban slavery until 1808]
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.


Article IV, Section. 2. [Free states cannot protect slaves]
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.


Article V [No Constitutional Amendment to Ban Slavery Until 1808]
...No Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article.



Things change.

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#209    preacherman76

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 28 December 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

And mysteriously left no evidence of it....

Seriously man, there's nothing wrong with being mistaken, everyone is sometimes.  You don't have to acknowledge your error but I wouldn't think you want to continue to dig in your heels on an incorrect position here either.  Don't believe people here, just look it up.

What do you mean no evidence? The bill of rights its self is the evidence.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#210    preacherman76

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 09:44 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 29 December 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Here are some more quotations from the Founding Fathers themselves.  From the US Constitution:

Article I, Section. 2 [Slaves count as 3/5 persons]
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons [i.e., slaves].


Article I, Section. 9, clause 1. [No power to ban slavery until 1808]
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.


Article IV, Section. 2. [Free states cannot protect slaves]
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.


Article V [No Constitutional Amendment to Ban Slavery Until 1808]
...No Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article.



Things change.

And you acuse Babe of using strawmen.

Not one thing regarding what the founders believed about the second amendment has changed. Not one.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.




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