50 replies to this topic

[Coffey]

libstaK, on 16 September 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

That's easy - you don't test God on these matters.  He has also placed the Pope in a time, place and the wherewithall to obtain a bulletproof "pope mobile", to say no to that is to put God to the test gratuitously.

That's twisting it a bit really. Was he not saying no to God by getting the "pope mobile" in the first place?

[libstaK]

Coffey, on 16 September 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

That's twisting it a bit really. Was he not saying no to God by getting the "pope mobile" in the first place?

I don't think so, he was using what is already available.  I guess what he is saying is "This is a job, God might have my back but no more than he does anyone else on this Earth - I don't imagine I'll get special treatment and I won't act like I do either".

Here's some parallel context:

8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' " 9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; 11 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' " 12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' " 13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

It could easily be misplaced pride (temptation) rather than faith when a person doesn't do all they can to protect themselves because "God will protect me".

[Coffey]

libstaK, on 16 September 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I don't think so, he was using what is already available.  I guess what he is saying is "This is a job, God might have my back but no more than he does anyone else on this Earth - I don't imagine I'll get special treatment and I won't act like I do either".

Here's some parallel context:

8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.' " 9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; 11 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' " 12 Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' " 13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

It could easily be misplaced pride (temptation) rather than faith when a person doesn't do all they can to protect themselves because "God will protect me".

That means in the context of stabbing yourself, jumping of a cliff or jumping of a motorway crossover.

Not really the same thing as getting a bulletproof case to travel in. lol

[libstaK]

Coffey, on 16 September 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

That means in the context of stabbing yourself, jumping of a cliff or jumping of a motorway crossover.

Not really the same thing as getting a bulletproof case to travel in. lol

Sure it is, jumping off a cliff and expecting to land safely is akin to expecting to be bullet proof if someone fires a gun in your direction.

[The Silver Thong]

libstaK, on 16 September 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Sure it is, jumping off a cliff and expecting to land safely is akin to expecting to be bullet proof if someone fires a gun in your direction.

Lets say the pope is shot and killed no matter what it would be gods will right.

[Coffey]

The Silver Thong, on 16 September 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Lets say the pope is shot and killed no matter what it would be gods will right.

Exactly.

libstaK, on 16 September 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

Sure it is, jumping off a cliff and expecting to land safely is akin to expecting to be bullet proof if someone fires a gun in your direction.

That's not the same at all.

The equivalent of jumping off a cliff would be the equivalent of shooting yourself. Not someone else shooting you. As both are suicide, which is what the Bible was aiming at.

[Knight Of Shadows]

questionmark, on 16 September 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

That somebody else acts like an ar$ehole is not a valid excuse to do it yourself, at least not there where they pretend to be civilized.

true but i had giving a potentioal scenario had been a western nation wanted to go on rampage on some country
they'll steerup something then use it as excuse let me ask you honestly .. is that very far fetched ? honestly ?

[meryt-tetisheri]

Knight Of Shadows, on 16 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

true but i had giving a potentioal scenario had been a western nation wanted to go on rampage on some country
they'll steerup something then use it as excuse let me ask you honestly .. is that very far fetched ? honestly ?

The problem with this view imo is that implies that some groups/communities have a 'push button' once pressed a predictable response is guaranteed; and that they would react en masse, thoughtlessly following some kind of a herd instinct! I find this offensive. I'd rather think that people misjudged, erred, misunderstood other cultures; that there are fanatics and moderates, cynics and the gullible...than they are but a mindless mass on the move.

[Knight Of Shadows]

that is true .. but with kind mentality the westerns see us and the way their media , movies portray us
they got used to the " terrorist " muslim face they wouldn't see otherwise

so should they decide to streerup a strike say against the pope and pin it on exteremists .. no problem there
all the west will go " ohh bad muslims "
not even paying little attention that their goverment has made so many disgusting acts and that could be one of them

can you deny that ?

[meryt-tetisheri]

Knight Of Shadows, on 16 September 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

that is true .. but with kind mentality the westerns see us and the way their media , movies portray us
they got used to the " terrorist " muslim face they wouldn't see otherwise

so should they decide to streerup a strike say against the pope and pin it on exteremists .. no problem there
all the west will go " ohh bad muslims "
not even paying little attention that their goverment has made so many disgusting acts and that could be one of them

can you deny that ?

Can you prove it?
KoS, I think we disagree here, blaming the West for all our problems, seeing it as the prime mover of all that's going on in the ME will simply blind us, prevent us from correctly diagnosing our problems and consequently from finding realistic solutions. We have to admit that we are responsible for the larger part of our problems then decide to deal with them appropriately. Seeing conspiracies everywhere will only end up giving us a paranoid world view in which we are helpless, hapless followers, easily goaded to the left or to the right.

[shaddow134]

meryt-tetisheri, on 16 September 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Can you prove it?
KoS, I think we disagree here, blaming the West for all our problems, seeing it as the prime mover of all that's going on in the ME will simply blind us, prevent us from correctly diagnosing our problems and consequently from finding realistic solutions. We have to admit that we are responsible for the larger part of our problems then decide to deal with them appropriately. Seeing conspiracies everywhere will only end up giving us a paranoid world view in which we are helpless, hapless followers, easily goaded to the left or to the right.

There is no conspiracy,and i disagree with you,the West carries a huge portion of blame for it's tinkering in the ME.

When the wells run dry,no one will give a damn...

Edited by shaddow134, 16 September 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Yamato]

This video makes me so happy our founding fathers had the foresight to write the Establishment Clause and introduce it so gently into US law.  

Religion must be able to break the chains of government that hopelessly attempt to represent it.   I know the opposite can also be said, that it's government that must break the chains of religion.   And I would agree looking at it that way is equally true.   Religion and government are two things that should stay separate, as much as humanly possible.

[meryt-tetisheri]

shaddow134, on 16 September 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

There is no conspiracy,and i disagree with you,the West carries a huge portion of blame for it's tinkering in the ME.

When the wells run dry,no one will give a damn...

The West can only exploit the problems we create and then meet with apathy. If the West aided dictators, we allowed them to ascend to power and remain there. If the West bribed corrupt officials, they are afterall 'natives' whom we allowed into office and turned a blind eye to nepotism, bribery, and dysfunctional law enforcement. We allowed extremists in office, tolerated their hate speech; stood by when almost 50% are malnourished, living at or below the poverty line while Fauchon is opening branches in our cities. The problems of overpopulation and extreme environmental pollution are of our making, and so are illiteracy and the collapsing educational system. We participate in the inequality of women and minorities, sexual harassement in our streets.....the list goes on and on. The sum total of all these problems maybe exploited by others but that's a consequence not a cause. Hanging our negligence on the shoulders of the West then crying over it makes us nothing but weaklings, always at the receiving end. When my son was a young child he used to blame the floor for hurting his knees when he fell!

[libstaK]

Coffey, on 16 September 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Exactly.



That's not the same at all.

The equivalent of jumping off a cliff would be the equivalent of shooting yourself. Not someone else shooting you. As both are suicide, which is what the Bible was aiming at.

So it's not suicidal in the modern age of guns, when one Pope has already been shot to ignore the protection offered by a bullet proof vehicle - I'll bet his security detail would disagree with you.

[Coffey]

libstaK, on 17 September 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

So it's not suicidal in the modern age of guns, when one Pope has already been shot to ignore the protection offered by a bullet proof vehicle - I'll bet his security detail would disagree with you.

It's not suicidal in the way that shooting yourself or jumping off a cliff is, which is the way the bible means. The way you are saying would be up to God if he survived or not. (if he actually believed in him)

Anyway can you blame people for wanting the head of such a disgusting organization. (I do not mean Catholics as people, I mean the catholic church itself)