448 replies to this topic

[__R_____]

Mistydawn, on 31 December 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

Good point Ron. The thing for me when people say things like remember our Ancestors did this or that, brings to mind that we are all brothers and sisters of one race and that means even those people we abhor like murderers etc, and I don't want to be like them either.

The issue with "do plants have rights too" stirs my brain into a frenzy!! I am just now, looking to explore the emotions and make the right choice rather than just continue along oblivious.

yes and no - we derive from monkeys who are known to be herbivores engaging in only instances of carnivorous behavior.  Research indicates that our early ancestors relied mostly on the kills of other animals like a hyena or vulture.  So as far as our ancestors go we depended primarily on veggies - its only very recently that meat arrives as a mainstay for humans - even then as Mr. Walker correctly points out, most of the world does not consume meat in vast amounts simply b/c it can be an expensive commodity.

[Mistydawn]

f1gtr33, on 31 December 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

I think of three things.  If you are coming from a christian perspective you have to sort out what is written as a reflection of the laws of the times and what is actually written as guidance for what you "should" eat.  Also are you interested in transubstantiation?  I only ask b/c outside of paradise lost I can't say I've ever encountered it - even as a Christian.  Actually maybe go look at that text as it is a concern of Adam's.  Finally, I know that in almost every instance you can eat fish - in a spiritual sense - so would you continue to each fish?  Leviticus mentions shellfish as being an abomination - but like i said, have to sift through all that stuff and decide what will and won't work for you.  From an atheist perspective - less meat = better health = better sense of self and clear mind.  So I'd say go for it. Its not like you're hurting anybody, worse thing that'll happen is you'll save some money on groceries.

Thanks for your input timestamp.  I am a bit thick, so maybe you will explain what "transubstantiation" is?
Although what different Religious thinkers throughout the ages say facinates me, I guess I am coming at my diet from a sense of right and wrong for the creatures we share the planet with. I own a pet dog and I often think the choice I make to eat other animals makes me a bit of a hypocrate.
People have said to me human beings are top of the food train and that makes it alright to eat whatever we like, but I think that kind of attitude would make lots of actions that are cruel right and somehow, in the presence of animals in their natural habitat I feel humbled, not god-like.

[__R_____]

Mistydawn, on 31 December 2011 - 11:10 AM, said:

Thanks for your input timestamp.  I am a bit thick, so maybe you will explain what "transubstantiation" is?
Although what different Religious thinkers throughout the ages say facinates me, I guess I am coming at my diet from a sense of right and wrong for the creatures we share the planet with. I own a pet dog and I often think the choice I make to eat other animals makes me a bit of a hypocrate.
People have said to me human beings are top of the food train and that makes it alright to eat whatever we like, but I think that kind of attitude would make lots of actions that are cruel right and somehow, in the presence of animals in their natural habitat I feel humbled, not god-like.

Well i commend you in giving some thought to your actions, after all isn't that the essence of the human condition?  I've had the same thoughts that you describe.  Tough call though - in its extreme form there are Buddhist stories of self sacrifice to animals so that the animal could survive on the other end there is the invention of meat on a stick.  Transubstantiation  - and I'll probably get some of this wrong - was the concern w/ how food impacted the physical body and ultimately the soul.  It directly relates diet w/ your soul.  It is a pretty interesting topic.  Milton addresses the topic in paradise lost. I'd say if you think you wouldn't be able to kill and prep the animal you are eating then maybe don't eat it.

[ThePhantomFlanFlinger]

Mistydawn, on 31 December 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Well dutchie, lots of different things  but just this week I happened to switch channels of tv and came across a chef preparing a "suckling pig" I had to switch off and the image is stuck inside my head.

You should do it for yourself .....Ignore why it should be done or not.The most important thing is what you want to do..

Edited by BrianPotter, 31 December 2011 - 11:45 AM.

[Farmerboy]

Mistydawn, on 30 December 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

I am thinking of giving up eating meat.I would really appreciate some feedback... the pros and cons in a Spiritual context, not necessarily for health reasons.Please share your thoughts. Much appreciated.

Well I think its good to have as part of a healthy balanced diet, our ancestors were omnivores and our bodies have adaptions to eating meat. Ethically speaking, rather than just giving it up I would look to how the animals are raised because animal welfare can differ greatly between countries. Like in Northern Ireland and the Republic animals have very good welfare standards, with beef and lamb being grass fed, no growth hormones. If anything I feel that it would be most ethical to support where animal welfare is high.

[hetrodoxly]

f1gtr33, on 31 December 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

yes and no - we derive from monkeys who are known to be herbivores engaging in only instances of carnivorous behavior.  Research indicates that our early ancestors relied mostly on the kills of other animals like a hyena or vulture.  So as far as our ancestors go we depended primarily on veggies - its only very recently that meat arrives as a mainstay for humans - even then as Mr. Walker correctly points out, most of the world does not consume meat in vast amounts simply b/c it can be an expensive commodity.

Eating meat is the reason why we evolved into humans, we'd have not survived the ice age without it nor colonized areas of the world where plant life is seasonable,

[hetrodoxly]

Farmerboy, on 31 December 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Well I think its good to have as part of a healthy balanced diet, our ancestors were omnivores and our bodies have adaptions to eating meat. Ethically speaking, rather than just giving it up I would look to how the animals are raised because animal welfare can differ greatly between countries. Like in Northern Ireland and the Republic animals have very good welfare standards, with beef and lamb being grass fed, no growth hormones. If anything I feel that it would be most ethical to support where animal welfare is high.

I agree.

[__R_____]

hetrodoxly, on 31 December 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

Eating meat is the reason why we evolved into humans, we'd have not survived the ice age without it nor colonized areas of the world where plant life is seasonable,

not really - the ice age is not a very big definable point in human evolution - walking upright etc - these were skill developed well before the ice age and in an environment that more closely represented grasslands.  You're talking about surviving environmental change as opposed to the actual stages of evolution.  Evolution involved the way our skull was structured, walking upright, as well as many other physical attributes that were already established when the ice age hit.  The ability to eat meat did allow us to survive the ice age but it had little to nothing to do with actual evolution which is what I was addressing. The major stages of evolution of humans from monkey to something prototypical of current day humans had already undergone a tremendous amount of change.  Besides eating what was necessary to survive because of environmental crisis does not mean that it is something that should be continued, esp. since it was a mere blip in to totality of human existence.

[Leonardo]

Mistydawn, on 31 December 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Well dutchie, lots of different things  but just this week I happened to switch channels of tv and came across a chef preparing a "suckling pig" I had to switch off and the image is stuck inside my head.

I take it that you felt 'squeamish' seeing the suckling pig prepared for food, and now are considering giving up meat for ethical reasons?

I am not your conscience, Misty, but I do have an opinion regarding the above. If you felt upset over the preparation of suckling pig, then the simple solution is not to buy/eat suckling pig. If you feel upset over farming in general, then it is your prerogative to not buy farmed animal meat. I would recommend you investigate how to maintain a complete balanced intake of vitamins and minerals without consuming meat, however.

There really is no 'ethical argument' about whether to eat, or not eat, meat. It is purely a matter of personal conscience.

On a side note, I would be interested to see a study correlating the rise in vegetarianism with our anthropomorphisation of animals in film, tv and books. I suspect there is a causal relationship between the two.

[bulveye]

Check which farm the meat came from and make sure you only eat happy animals.

[ealdwita]

Vegetables are not food - vegetables are what food eats!.....or....
If animals weren't meant to be eaten, why are they made of meat?

[SamDavies]

Mistydawn, on 30 December 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

I am thinking of giving up eating meat.

I would really appreciate some feedback... the pros and cons in a Spiritual context, not necessarily for health reasons.

Please share your thoughts. Much appreciated.

Most of mankind eats meat.

Some believe not eating meat raises their spirituality. Many, many years ago I believed this till I experienced life. Personally, I don't believe this now. Due to the following.

Cultures considered spiritual eat heaps of meat. Buddhists. Native American Indians. Australian Aboriginals. Natives world wide.

Religions such as Christianity, Islam eat meat.

Like anything there are some really nasty vegans and vegatarians around, even the ones that think they are spiritual. Ones that would literally put a bullet in any person but not touch the hair on an animal. See children starve but send money to foundations that drag poor stray dogs off the streets when some of these poor animals should be put out of their misery. So if spiritual quality went hand in hand with not eating meat then the most loving peaceful meat eater would be placed beneith the vegatarian. This would not be just or logical.

I became a vegatarian for some years after a school outing to a slaughter house after being a big meat eater. But I now eat heaps of meat again. But what is different is now I always recognise that the animal I am about to eat gave its life so I could have a meal, so I thank it in respect for its spirit which I believe (like the natives) lives on. When I chose meat from the shelves I handle the meat with respect. Not throwing it down. My dogs are precious to me. When one dies I carefully handle its body and give it a burial. A cow, chicken, lamb, whatever should be handled in the same manner, IMO. I also try not to waste any of what I am eating by leaving it in the fridge forgetting it is there and goes off and thus thrown away. Access fat I give to my dogs. But I often eat the fat. I even respect the animal that died so my dogs can have bones to chew.

Health wise: Some people benefit from a vegatarian diet others - a few - suffer. The same with meat eaters. Some people should not be vegatarians. Each person's body chemisty is different and react different to different sources of proteins.

[SamDavies]

ealdwita, on 31 December 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

Vegetables are not food - vegetables are what food eats!.....or....
If animals weren't meant to be eaten, why are they made of meat?

Human's are made of meat but we generally don't eat each other, lol.

[__R_____]

SamDavies, on 31 December 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:

Most of mankind eats meat.

Some believe not eating meat raises their spirituality. Many, many years ago I believed this till I experienced life. Personally, I don't believe this now. Due to the following.

Cultures considered spiritual eat heaps of meat. Buddhists. Native American Indians. Australian Aboriginals. Natives world wide.

Religions such as Christianity, Islam eat meat.

Like anything there are some really nasty vegans and vegatarians around, even the ones that think they are spiritual. Ones that would literally put a bullet in any person but not touch the hair on an animal. See children starve but send money to foundations that drag poor stray dogs off the streets when some of these poor animals should be put out of their misery. So if spiritual quality went hand in hand with not eating meat then the most loving peaceful meat eater would be placed beneith the vegatarian. This would not be just or logical.

I became a vegatarian for some years after a school outing to a slaughter house after being a big meat eater. But I now eat heaps of meat again. But what is different is now I always recognise that the animal I am about to eat gave its life so I could have a meal, so I thank it in respect for its spirit which I believe (like the natives) lives on. When I chose meat from the shelves I handle the meat with respect. Not throwing it down. My dogs are precious to me. When one dies I carefully handle its body and give it a burial. A cow, chicken, lamb, whatever should be handled in the same manner, IMO. I also try not to waste any of what I am eating by leaving it in the fridge forgetting it is there and goes off and thus thrown away. Access fat I give to my dogs. But I often eat the fat. I even respect the animal that died so my dogs can have bones to chew.

Health wise: Some people benefit from a vegatarian diet others - a few - suffer. The same with meat eaters. Some people should not be vegatarians. Each person's body chemisty is different and react different to different sources of proteins.

"Heaps" is not the best approach.  Also to say that so many cultures eat "heaps" of meat is wrong.  They eat meat sure, but nothing like what you would find in the western world - certainly not in the same frequency or amount.  Some meat is good for you sure but a focus on meat as a mainstay is detrimental to overall health.  Even the simplest model - the food pyramid we are all taught as kids - does not emphasize meat as the dominant food group.  In america were people eat "heaps" of meat there is also a rampant obesity problem.  Meat is okay to incorporate but the idea that it belongs in a diet or that it is necessary to be truly healthy is misinformed.  This has nothing to do w/ spirituality and everything to do w/ basic nutrition science.  You're not going to find even close to the same number of health problems w/ those that eat less meat as you would your typical steak and potatoes type.

Edited by f1gtr33, 31 December 2011 - 10:52 PM.

[Lion6969]

What's better? To kill an animal with respect and feed a 100 people or to kill a field of plants (100s of living plants) to feed a 100 people. If all life is precious, why don't plants have the same rights.