37 replies to this topic

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Yamato, on 09 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

If Russia wanted oil they'd drill for it in Russia.  They're the largest oil producer in the world.   Oil is not their interest in Syria.

Precisely told

[and then]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 09 December 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

If Syria, or any other country, has not signed a treaty, then so what, it is their affair. There is no world government, no international law, only agreements between countries. No country is subjected to "International law", only the force of bigger more powerful countries. When one or more powerful countries get some super weapon, then you can bet there will be a flurry of treaties and "International law" stopping smaller countries obtaining these weapons. It is nothing to do with law or morality, it is naked power and most of the words from US/UK are only fit for toilet paper. They say harsh words against any supposed support for Assad, yet say nothing about the foreign Islamists flooding Syria, or the Saudis and gulf states showering money over the rebels. What hypocrasy! they scream and shout about "equality" and "minorities" etc in their own countries, make laws that turn normal human situations on heads, yet now will condemn minorities, Christians included, to possible death, or at least a very degraded future in a Syria ruled by Islamists. Why? why this stinking two faced attitude?. The UK foreign minister is saying same as was said about Iraq ten years back, and we are too believe these lying morons again?. Treaties, international law, all toilet paper, everything is about power, money, and more money, and yet more money, and if I forgot to say, it is about money, and power, with a bit of money thrown in......

So if tomorrow we begin to see images of piles of corpses frozen in some horrific death masks from being poisoned we are to just shrug and say the Syrians have a right to do this?  The LAST thing I would want is for US military to be killed in that cesspool of a place but the world has become a very small place and what happens in Syria today can happen in Canada or Rome tomorrow.  We don't have the luxury of a pity party where this stuff is concerned.  You mention raw power - an exercise of that kind of power is precisely what will be seen if any of these weapons get used.  Assad's regime will quickly be toppled due to massive airstrikes and then US and British forces will descend on the bases where this stuff is stored.  If the "rebels" decide to attack the US or British forces then it all could get really complicated.  But where this stuff is concerned there is no other choice.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 09 December 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

No, Russia does not need oil from Syria, it is the naval base at Tartus that is important. And as for weapons, well, this is a red herring, as used as weak excuse for turning back ship with helicopters, which would have taken three monthes to assemble, and were gargo helicopters, not gunships. Yet I see in western media no mention of this. It is not realistic to think that Syria needs to import weapons. It is implying that before this rebelion they did not have sufficient to wage war with any neighbours. The fighting has not been anything like as fierce as in a full state on state war. Perhaps Syrian Airforce has lost two or three gunships, well, that is nothing, there is no need to import more. This talk of weapons being supplied to Syria is smoke and mirrors, propaganda that no longer fools anybody. When US/UK say, WMD this and wag their finger at that, then all point finger at them and go "Ha ha" like Nelson Muntz and just say, what about Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. In western media there are photos/videos of people killed by Syrian state armed forces, and all the bleeding heart statements about such, yet I have not seen in western media the film of ordinary Syrians, loyal to state, being thrown off top of five story post office buliding. There is simple question here, what happens in other countries is their affair, not mine, not yours, so, you want stable Syria, or a hell hole full of anti Western(and I include Russian)/Christian Islamists? which is it? you want those who hate you, or those, with some nose pinching, will bring stability and peace

So why was their Russian ships turning around which were carrying helicopters, Syria cannot make them or update them.
Well maybe not oil but other means but Russia still acts like in the early cold war years, you still have huge problems with parts in Russia.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

The New Richard Nixon, on 09 December 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

So why was their Russian ships turning around which were carrying helicopters, Syria cannot make them or update them.
Well maybe not oil but other means but Russia still acts like in the early cold war years, you still have huge problems with parts in Russia.

No, too many in west, US/UK, politicians and media are those still living in cold war. "Russia in the geo-political enemy" said Romney....
There is a self righteous attitude from west that is sickening, and the anti-Russian propaganda I see in your media would have the authors arrested for "hate crimes" if they wrote about minorities in their own countries in such a way. You are not the world government or police and have no claim on any truths or moral high ground. Seems US/UK can act in their own interests, but if Russia does then it is "cold war". Situation in much of middle east is chickens coming home to roost that were let loose by Britain and France after First World War. Syria is a problem directly caused by Britain and France. For your further illumination I reckomend reading "A line in the Sand" by James Barr, published 2011.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

and then, on 09 December 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

So if tomorrow we begin to see images of piles of corpses frozen in some horrific death masks from being poisoned we are to just shrug and say the Syrians have a right to do this?  The LAST thing I would want is for US military to be killed in that cesspool of a place but the world has become a very small place and what happens in Syria today can happen in Canada or Rome tomorrow.  We don't have the luxury of a pity party where this stuff is concerned.  You mention raw power - an exercise of that kind of power is precisely what will be seen if any of these weapons get used.  Assad's regime will quickly be toppled due to massive airstrikes and then US and British forces will descend on the bases where this stuff is stored.  If the "rebels" decide to attack the US or British forces then it all could get really complicated.  But where this stuff is concerned there is no other choice.

You put words in my mouth that I do not say, or even think, particulary you have twisted my words about power. It is the power that US uses, and this should be clear to all who read my post. About "pity", well, it is a pity US did not descend on Iraq when gas was used against Halabja in 1988. Or perhaps they did not because they were friends of Saddam then..... Hypocracy, and it stinks

[The New Richard Nixon]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 09 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

No, too many in west, US/UK, politicians and media are those still living in cold war. "Russia in the geo-political enemy" said Romney....
There is a self righteous attitude from west that is sickening, and the anti-Russian propaganda I see in your media would have the authors arrested for "hate crimes" if they wrote about minorities in their own countries in such a way. You are not the world government or police and have no claim on any truths or moral high ground. Seems US/UK can act in their own interests, but if Russia does then it is "cold war". Situation in much of middle east is chickens coming home to roost that were let loose by Britain and France after First World War. Syria is a problem directly caused by Britain and France. For your further illumination I reckomend reading "A line in the Sand" by James Barr, published 2011.

You should be blaming Tunisa for all of this. It concerns all of us, whether we are connected or not. You call the West policing nations, isn't that exactly what Russia is doing? policing Syria? You also did not mention about the helicopters which seems to me that you know something that you don't want to share?

[and then]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 09 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

You put words in my mouth that I do not say, or even think, particulary you have twisted my words about power. It is the power that US uses, and this should be clear to all who read my post. About "pity", well, it is a pity US did not descend on Iraq when gas was used against Halabja in 1988. Or perhaps they did not because they were friends of Saddam then..... Hypocracy, and it stinks

I apologize if I took you out of context or misunderstood.  But the anger over hypocrisy real or imagined is pointless when dealing with this issue.  This is a very real problem with global ramifications.  As for Halabja - countries have interests not friends.  It's a harsh reality but there it is.  Iran was considered to be an enemy and a threat to the region even then and using Saddam probably looked like the least of evils to accomplish the weakening of Iran.  Sort of like using the Afghans to kill Russians.  America has made many mistakes - as have other nations over the years - but America has also done great good in the world.  Frankly it disgusts me to see how many so casually spit on my country when their very lives have been guaranteed through the force of US arms.  If the US simply walked away from this issue and left it to Europe or the Arab League to deal with I firmly believe that  regional war would begin almost immediately.  We are hated for what we do and hated for what we fail to do.  If we watched from the sideline while hell was well and truly unleashed in the region then perhaps some measure of respect for our sacrifices would be found again.  Not likely though.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

The New Richard Nixon, on 09 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

You should be blaming Tunisa for all of this. It concerns all of us, whether we are connected or not. You call the West policing nations, isn't that exactly what Russia is doing? policing Syria? You also did not mention about the helicopters which seems to me that you know something that you don't want to share?

Ridiculous to say that Russia is "policing" Syria. How? what evidence? what purpose?. You take a short term view of history. Syria is a mix of people and religions because of France and Britain. Just like in Africa, they have created false countries from people who never had any, or little affinity with each other. The affair about the helicopters is common knowledge. They were actually Syrian helicopters that were being returned to Syria after refurbishment. Further, they were Mi-8 helicopters, not Mi-24, Mi-28 or Ka-50, which are proper attack helicopters. western media described the Mi-8 as "flying tank"

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

and then, on 09 December 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

I apologize if I took you out of context or misunderstood.  But the anger over hypocrisy real or imagined is pointless when dealing with this issue.  This is a very real problem with global ramifications.  As for Halabja - countries have interests not friends.  It's a harsh reality but there it is.  Iran was considered to be an enemy and a threat to the region even then and using Saddam probably looked like the least of evils to accomplish the weakening of Iran.  Sort of like using the Afghans to kill Russians.  America has made many mistakes - as have other nations over the years - but America has also done great good in the world.  Frankly it disgusts me to see how many so casually spit on my country when their very lives have been guaranteed through the force of US arms.  If the US simply walked away from this issue and left it to Europe or the Arab League to deal with I firmly believe that  regional war would begin almost immediately.  We are hated for what we do and hated for what we fail to do.  If we watched from the sideline while hell was well and truly unleashed in the region then perhaps some measure of respect for our sacrifices would be found again.  Not likely though.

That US would show any interest in Middle east if not for Israel and oil?......
How many Afgantsy died because of US Stinger missiles supplied to Bin Laden and others in Aghanistan. And for what purpose? simply to kill Soviet soldiers for amusement of TV stations that showed video given to them by their jihadist "friends". Until your rather strange "friends" eventually gained power in Afghanistan, the country was doing reasonably well, with Soviet help. Girls were educated, no burkas for women, or public executions in football stadiums. Boys could fly kites, and on and on. All went when your "friends" took over.  Look at situation in Balkans, for which Clinton/Blair get credit. By joining in, all that happens is a situation has been shelved for a few more decades. Centuries of under the surface tensions are not resolved by 7th Cavalry riding in and imposing US world view until media get bored and move on. You really think Balkan situation is resolved? hardly, and likely the same will happen in middle east.

Not making this post in antagonism, it is simply some truths. I am not anti American or Israeli, I just try to look at reality. I am in situation to see two sides, and I know when lies are told, and at the moment most of the lies and obfuscations are coming from the west.

[and then]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 09 December 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

That US would show any interest in Middle east if not for Israel and oil?......
How many Afgantsy died because of US Stinger missiles supplied to Bin Laden and others in Aghanistan. And for what purpose? simply to kill Soviet soldiers for amusement of TV stations that showed video given to them by their jihadist "friends". Until your rather strange "friends" eventually gained power in Afghanistan, the country was doing reasonably well, with Soviet help. Girls were educated, no burkas for women, or public executions in football stadiums. Boys could fly kites, and on and on. All went when your "friends" took over.  Look at situation in Balkans, for which Clinton/Blair get credit. By joining in, all that happens is a situation has been shelved for a few more decades. Centuries of under the surface tensions are not resolved by 7th Cavalry riding in and imposing US world view until media get bored and move on. You really think Balkan situation is resolved? hardly, and likely the same will happen in middle east.

Not making this post in antagonism, it is simply some truths. I am not anti American or Israeli, I just try to look at reality. I am in situation to see two sides, and I know when lies are told, and at the moment most of the lies and obfuscations are coming from the west.

I respect your views and even agree with you at some points.  But the fact remains that blaming will do nothing to help in the current situation.  It's my hope that my country will find the wisdom to use force judicially to help with this situation before it spirals out of control.

[The New Richard Nixon]

The balkans were a just war, you can seek to a few Europeans here who feel very differently to your views. The Balkans are a better place and tourism is soaring every year. You cannot blame nations, the more you blame the more responsible you are. But lets still concentrate on Syria.

[Erikl]

We are all pawns in the grand Sunni-Shiia conflict that turmoils the region for centuries. I believe chemical weapons will be used in this war. I also believe the colonial project called Syria will eventually dismantle into nations states, with the sad price of massacres, ethnic cleansing and genocides between the different ethnicities there.

[ExpandMyMind]

Erikl, on 09 December 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

We are all pawns in the grand Sunni-Shiia conflict that turmoils the region for centuries. I believe chemical weapons will be used in this war.

They already have.

[Erikl]

ExpandMyMind, on 09 December 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

They already have.

Source please?

I've missed it, and I watch very closely as any use of chemical weapons in Syria is of concern for us Israelis as you might guess....

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

The New Richard Nixon, on 09 December 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

The balkans were a just war, you can seek to a few Europeans here who feel very differently to your views. The Balkans are a better place and tourism is soaring every year. You cannot blame nations, the more you blame the more responsible you are. But lets still concentrate on Syria.

Hmm, sorry, I won't leave it hanging on your statement. Firstly "the more you blame the more responsible you are." just does not make sense. Secondly, what about Kosovo, no "just" war there, only theft of a province from it's rightful owners. And before the cries of offtop, there is a link between Balkans and Syria and middle east in general. Not only British and French had finger in pie, there was another who had finger, no, whole arm, legs even, in pie for centuries. History of such places needs to be looked at with much longer time view, much longer than media and countries like US have time or inclination.