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#16    sinewave

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:01 PM

View Postsam_comm, on 26 October 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

The same is said concerning EVPs and Ouija sessions, that here is nothing more to it than pareidolia and the idemotor effect but a very interesting documentation gathered over the years of experiences with these devices point to something more. Is it scientific proof, not at all but I don't see how these phenomenon should be considered illegitimate. It could be that in some cases the Spirit box can produce the same range of phenomenon that are not related to pareidolia.

Have you ever looked at any of the common ghost busting tools critically?  Have you ever asked why they are believed to work?  It is because someone just decided they do, that's why.  The fact is, their effectiveness is based solely on the perception.   Of course there are lots of problems with this because proponents quickly paint themselves into a corner.  


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The scientific explanations are not in doubt here, we all know that pareidolia is common and that misinterprations of radio stations' broadcasts can be easily made if one is not careful. The scientific explanations can probably explain many cases. The question is and what we do not know is could an entity communicate through that? I am open-minded to the possbility and according to the documentations one can find with other means used in paranormal circles such as EVPs recordings and Ouija boards which have given interesting results than it may not be ludicrous to think that a Spirit Box could serve this purpose as well. If energy beings do exists, which is an hypothesis, it may be that they can manipulate the radio waves and influence frequencies. More data need to be gathered before jumping to a conclusion.

Well, I would not say all.  There are many here who would claim to not be immune to pareidolia.   The fact is, if ghosts communicate on the AM/FM bands we would have been hearing them over our radios for years. Doesn't that make sense?

As for energy beings, the same person who will tell you their EMF meter can identify ghosts will probably also tell you that science is not advanced enough to understand ghosts. Do you see the conflicting assertions?  Are we really to believe our understandings of quantum mechanics and thermodynamics are inadequate to test the idea of ghosts but some guy with a cheap magnetometer can do it all day long?  It cannot be both ways!  

Persistent energy clouds do not exist anywhere in the observable Universe and run contrary to the way energy behaves.  Thermodynamics stipulates that energy will flow from regions of high concentration to regions of lower concentration by the shortest available path until equilibrium is reached.  In other words, energy rapidly diffuses into its surroundings.  If there were indeed free roaming energy "beings" they would likely be everywhere and would certainly have been noticed by someone with credentials by now.  Finding such a field would be Nobel Prize stuff.

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Science is still very much a work in progress and history tells us that sometimes highly imprable hypothesis in the eyes of science becomes reality. I am not saying it is the case here ou would be, but since science do not recognize paranormal phenomenon as legit, I am skeptical of this claim. Unfortunately, a person's experience cannnot necesserely be proved in a scientific method and if the phenomenon is in itself it both objective/subjective and elusive, you'll have a hard time 'proving' that to a skeptical community. Especially when the scientific evidence are ''squarely'' against you.

Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance.” Albert Einstein

By its very nature, science will always be a work in progress.  The fact that some hypotheses required more work that others to become accepted theory does not make other hypotheses any more valid.  That is a good Einstein quote but it does not apply in this case. Einstein was not advocating belief without evidence.  A little research will reveal his feelings about belief.


#17    sam_comm

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

View Postsinewave, on 26 October 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Have you ever looked at any of the common ghost busting tools critically?  Have you ever asked why they are believed to work?  It is because someone just decided they do, that's why.  The fact is, their effectiveness is based solely on the perception.   Of course there are lots of problems with this because proponents quickly paint themselves into a corner.

As far as I know, DVR, handhanld camera, audio recorders does work because we decided they do, you have to set them, power them and monitore them. But the technology is objective, unless you tamper a footage to make it ''believable''. That is not the case for serious investigators. What they capture or record is what is there fro all to see and hear and not to perceive in an altered state of mind..

Af for the EMF meters and thermomether I have my reserve but I see the relevance to use them. It is possible that a high EMF field can be generated in a house which can potentially be harmful and create side effects such as fatigue and stress. Investigators want to rule out that possiblity hence the use of a EMF decteor. Others, believe that EMF fluctuations can be cause by a spirit activity but I am skeptical of this claim. It's an hypothesis.

In an investigations, it is not uncommon to experience temperature fluctuations, or ''cold spot'', It seems logical to me to use a thermomether to measure the temperature fluctuations of a room and validate and document the phenomenon.

Of course, these tools are not always used properly, I fin ridiculous to see in some paranoral tv show the guys handing is thermomether in a window and say ''here is a drop or 2 degree!! Others uses EMF detector in front of a microwave and are excited by their ''findings''.

View Postsinewave, on 26 October 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

As for energy beings, the same person who will tell you their EMF meter can identify ghosts will probably also tell you that science is not advanced enough to understand ghosts. Do you see the conflicting assertions?  Are we really to believe our understandings of quantum mechanics and thermodynamics are inadequate to test the idea of ghosts but some guy with a cheap magnetometer can do it all day long?  It cannot be both ways!

The widespread idea among paranormal investigators is that that ''ghost'' can emit electromagnetic field and that there presence can thus be detected using an EMF meters. There is no proofs that it is the case so it remain a speculative. Some therefore will use it to test the theory or find high EMF sources.

If ''ghost'' really exist, which is a possiblity, therefore it seems logical to say that the science is not there yet. The equiments to detect the manifestation of ''ghost'' is used to work according to some hypothesis and theories. if you want to research this field, you have to start somewhere.


View Postsinewave, on 26 October 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

By its very nature, science will always be a work in progress.  The fact that some hypotheses required more work that others to become accepted theory does not make other hypotheses any more valid.  That is a good Einstein quote but it does not apply in this case. Einstein was not advocating belief without evidence.  A little research will reveal his feelings about belief.

I agree with you. But if if we had to stop and give up researching each time ideas and controversial hypothesises were put forward and rejected, I wonder where science would be today.

The Esinstein quote make sens not only in this case but in the field of research of the paranormal. Condamnation without throughout investigations is ignorance. Whether there is no repoducable proofs is not yet the question here, but if you have preconveiced ideas about a concept or an idea, you already condamn.

Edited by sam_comm, 28 October 2013 - 09:18 PM.


#18    sam_comm

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:27 PM

Albert Einstein** Sorry for the misspellings, I couldn't Edit my above post for some reason.

Edited by sam_comm, 28 October 2013 - 11:28 PM.


#19    sinewave

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:26 AM

View Postsam_comm, on 28 October 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

As far as I know, DVR, handhanld camera, audio recorders does work because we decided they do, you have to set them, power them and monitore them. But the technology is objective, unless you tamper a footage to make it ''believable''. That is not the case for serious investigators. What they capture or record is what is there fro all to see and hear and not to perceive in an altered state of mind.

Before anyone can call themselves a serious investigator they have to be acutely aware of everything that can impact their results.  That means actually understanding the equipment and it limitations. Do you know how accurate your EMF meter is? Can it even be calibrated?  Real science would find ways to control out noise.  That's just the beginning.  You have to run baseline test to establish what is "normal" before anything can be called an anomaly.  Most ghost busters don't have the stomach (or brains?) for mapping proper analytic methods.  That's just the surface.    

Quote

Af for the EMF meters and thermomether I have my reserve but I see the relevance to use them. It is possible that a high EMF field can be generated in a house which can potentially be harmful and create side effects such as fatigue and stress. Investigators want to rule out that possiblity hence the use of a EMF decteor. Others, believe that EMF fluctuations can be cause by a spirit activity but I am skeptical of this claim. It's an hypothesis.

In an investigations, it is not uncommon to experience temperature fluctuations, or ''cold spot'', It seems logical to me to use a thermomether to measure the temperature fluctuations of a room and validate and document the phenomenon.

Without a sound reason for using them i.e. some established data, you have no idea what you are measuring.  Again, you are doing it only because someone told you it works.  There is no science to back it up.  With enough rationalization, you could use pendulums and mood rings just as effectively.  As I have stated in other posts, magnetic flux is a fact of life .  Unless you are in a very specially constructed environment, it is impossible to not experience varying levels of EM flux.  The same goes for thermometers.  The whole cold spot thing is based on perception. There are lots of reasons for cold spots or why people would THINK was a cold spot.  Those have to be taken into account too.  


Quote

Of course, these tools are not always used properly, I fin ridiculous to see in some paranoral tv show the guys handing is thermomether in a window and say ''here is a drop or 2 degree!! Others uses EMF detector in front of a microwave and are excited by their ''findings''.

They are almost never used properly.  EMF meters (including the K2) are meant to provide loose numbers and are far from being precision devices. The circuitry flaws alone can account for meter swings considered significant by ghost busters.  They are  not intended to be accurate or sensitive to slight changes.    

Quote

The widespread idea among paranormal investigators is that that ''ghost'' can emit electromagnetic field and that there presence can thus be detected using an EMF meters. There is no proofs that it is the case so it remain a speculative. Some therefore will use it to test the theory or find high EMF sources.

If ''ghost'' really exist, which is a possiblity, therefore it seems logical to say that the science is not there yet. The equiments to detect the manifestation of ''ghost'' is used to work according to some hypothesis and theories. if you want to research this field, you have to start somewhere.

They believe ghosts emit EM fields because there is so much of it to be had.  As I said, try to find a place that doesn't have measurable ambient EM fields.  
Given the assertions about ghost busting devices, how is that at all logical to say science it not there yet?  If a $20 EMF meter or other bits of consumer electronics can detect a ghost,  our current level of science is clearly good enough.  No?  It is not science that is lacking, it is the supporting evidence.



Quote

I agree with you. But if if we had to stop and give up researching each time ideas and controversial hypothesises were put forward and rejected, I wonder where science would be today.

The Esinstein quote make sens not only in this case but in the field of research of the paranormal. Condamnation without throughout investigations is ignorance. Whether there is no repoducable proofs is not yet the question here, but if you have preconveiced ideas about a concept or an idea, you already condamn.

It is NOT rejected by science.  Reread that last sentence.  The idea is not rejected it is merely considered to be highly improbable.   There is a huge difference between the two approaches.  

As I said, Einstein was not advocating belief without evidence, he was insisting that scientific method be followed to see if an idea has merit before discounting it.  Science does not operate on feelings or wild assertions.  Like it or not, that is what the foundation of the ghost hypothesis is made of.

View Postsam_comm, on 28 October 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

Albert Einstein** Sorry for the misspellings, I couldn't Edit my above post for some reason.

Heh, no problem.  I misspell it most of the time myself.  :)


#20    sam_comm

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 03:56 PM

View Postsinewave, on 29 October 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Before anyone can call themselves a serious investigator they have to be acutely aware of everything that can impact their results.  That means actually understanding the equipment and it limitations. Do you know how accurate your EMF meter is? Can it even be calibrated?  Real science would find ways to control out noise.  That's just the beginning.  You have to run baseline test to establish what is "normal" before anything can be called an anomaly.  Most ghost busters don't have the stomach (or brains?) for mapping proper analytic methods.  That's just the surface.

This can be learned and put in pratice with some researches and expert recommendations. Some investigators are well organized and informed, you might be surprised. Unfortunately not everyone is, and we can sometimes see that on TV.

The lack of reproducable proofs is not necesserely due to the use of the equiments or the ''non-existence'' of what we call ghost. It may be the nature of the phenomenon. If you take the exemple of dark matter, accoding to scientists it's all around us, in your kitchen and bedroom, making up the galaxies. It has not yet been detected and therefore remain hypothetical. But it make sens to think that it does exist, for it would corroborate observations and estimations.

We also don't exactly know when a supernova will burst, but when it does we can observe it and document it. It appear for a limited amount of time an then stop.

View Postsinewave, on 29 October 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Without a sound reason for using them i.e. some established data, you have no idea what you are measuring.  Again, you are doing it only because someone told you it works.  There is no science to back it up.  With enough rationalization, you could use pendulums and mood rings just as effectively.  As I have stated in other posts, magnetic flux is a fact of life .  Unless you are in a very specially constructed environment, it is impossible to not experience varying levels of EM flux.  The same goes for thermometers.  The whole cold spot thing is based on perception. There are lots of reasons for cold spots or why people would THINK was a cold spot.  Those have to be taken into account too.
  

Professor Johnjoe McFadden from the School of Biomedical and Life Sciences at the University of Surrey proposes that the conscious mind consists of an electromagnetic field, a field that does not disintegrate when we die. The firing of electrical impulses along nerves in the brain is sort of like an alternating current system as well, but with a lot more directions and cascade effects.

Source: http://io9.com/58752...unters-swear-by

The theory of ''ghost'' made of electrical residue find his way up to the academic level. It's an hypothesis though, and as all hypothesis it needs to be tested and experienced. Investigators make a ''base reading''  and measure the EMF of the room. Any significant fluctuation will be noticed on the meter. What I find interesting with the application this tool in paranormal investigations, even though I am not wholly convinced of it's full effectiveness is that it can be served to corroborate a personal experience as well as detect high EFM field that can be harmful in a house. A team hear a banging sound in a room, taking a reading with the EMF meter they notice an usual spike and then it drop to the base reading.

The science is not necesserely there to back it up but since ''ghost'' are considered highly improbable this field of research is also considered highly disputable so you've to test things and developpe a methodology that can be based on science, yes, but exploring new grounds that allow you to gather objective results for all to see.


View Postsinewave, on 29 October 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

They believe ghosts emit EM fields because there is so much of it to be had.  As I said, try to find a place that doesn't have measurable ambient EM fields.  
Given the assertions about ghost busting devices, how is that at all logical to say science it not there yet?  If a $20 EMF meter or other bits of consumer electronics can detect a ghost,  our current level of science is clearly good enough.  No?  It is not science that is lacking, it is the supporting evidence.

According to a study made in 2008 (http://www.ct.gov/dp...heet_-_2008.pdf) 50% of the average American home has EMF levels of 0.6 Mg or less and 95% had an average below 3Mg.

The EMF levels can be higher, 5Mg or more if you're near appliances, wires and circuit breakers.

A serious investigator is aware of that and will do regular base readings of a room and take note of it. There is measurable ambiant fields everywhere, that is well known. What is anormal is high EMF spikes out of thin air, at times following a previous event.

Edited by sam_comm, 29 October 2013 - 04:11 PM.


#21    sinewave

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:02 AM

View Postsam_comm, on 29 October 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

This can be learned and put in pratice with some researches and expert recommendations. Some investigators are well organized and informed, you might be surprised. Unfortunately not everyone is, and we can sometimes see that on TV.

You pretty much have to have the background of an RF engineer / scientist to fully understand the problem set.  Not to mention some pretty heavy resources.   None of the TV ghost teams do anything even remotely resembling science.  My favorites are those two buffoons from Texas with the ghost lab trailer.  Some of the most ridiculous s#it I have ever heard on the subject came out of their mouths.  


Quote

The lack of reproducable proofs is not necesserely due to the use of the equiments or the ''non-existence'' of what we call ghost. It may be the nature of the phenomenon. If you take the exemple of dark matter, accoding to scientists it's all around us, in your kitchen and bedroom, making up the galaxies. It has not yet been detected and therefore remain hypothetical. But it make sens to think that it does exist, for it would corroborate observations and estimations.

We also don't exactly know when a supernova will burst, but when it does we can observe it and document it. It appear for a limited amount of time an then stop.

Dark matter is difficult to observe but there is a readily observable visible effect on light over great distances (in the form of gravitational lensing).  It is not hypothetical as much as it is not understood.  

Quote

Professor Johnjoe McFadden from the School of Biomedical and Life Sciences at the University of Surrey proposes that the conscious mind consists of an electromagnetic field, a field that does not disintegrate when we die. The firing of electrical impulses along nerves in the brain is sort of like an alternating current system as well, but with a lot more directions and cascade effects.

Source: http://io9.com/58752...unters-swear-by

The brain is electrochemical so the field certainly could continue for a short time after death.  It won't hang about indefinitely, just until the neuro-chemicals are exhausted - like a battery.  


Quote

The theory of ''ghost'' made of electrical residue find his way up to the academic level. It's an hypothesis though, and as all hypothesis it needs to be tested and experienced. Investigators make a ''base reading''  and measure the EMF of the room. Any significant fluctuation will be noticed on the meter. What I find interesting with the application this tool in paranormal investigations, even though I am not wholly convinced of it's full effectiveness is that it can be served to corroborate a personal experience as well as detect high EFM field that can be harmful in a house. A team hear a banging sound in a room, taking a reading with the EMF meter they notice an usual spike and then it drop to the base reading.

The science is not necesserely there to back it up but since ''ghost'' are considered highly improbable this field of research is also considered highly disputable so you've to test things and developpe a methodology that can be based on science, yes, but exploring new grounds that allow you to gather objective results for all to see.

The room would have to be a very tight Faraday cage.


Quote

According to a study made in 2008 (http://www.ct.gov/dp...heet_-_2008.pdf) 50% of the average American home has EMF levels of 0.6 Mg or less and 95% had an average below 3Mg.

The EMF levels can be higher, 5Mg or more if you're near appliances, wires and circuit breakers.

A serious investigator is aware of that and will do regular base readings of a room and take note of it. There is measurable ambiant fields everywhere, that is well known. What is anormal is high EMF spikes out of thin air, at times following a previous event.

Yep.  There are lots of things that can push that number up even if for only a few seconds at a time.  In any given location there are many possible variables.


#22    coolguy

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 04:11 AM

I have gotten many Evps they are real there are some good ghost box videos on u tube


#23    sinewave

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 04:42 AM

View Postcoolguy, on 30 October 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

I have gotten many Evps they are real there are some good ghost box videos on u tube

I'll bet there are.  The bastion of truth and integrity.  You know it is an AM/FM radio, right?  That is why you hear voices.  

Great avatar BTW.


#24    sam_comm

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:32 PM

View Postsinewave, on 30 October 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

You pretty much have to have the background of an RF engineer / scientist to fully understand the problem set.  Not to mention some pretty heavy resources.   None of the TV ghost teams do anything even remotely resembling science.  My favorites are those two buffoons from Texas with the ghost lab trailer.  Some of the most ridiculous s#it I have ever heard on the subject came out of their mouths.

Not necesserely. An electrician, a plomber, a magician can contribute to this field of research. Even the guy who work at Target can be good for problems solving. This is what we call citizen science.

Formally, citizen science has been defined as "the systematic collection and analysis of data; development of technology; testing of natural phenomena; and the dissemination of these activities by researchers on a primarily avocational basis". Citizen science is sometimes called "public participation in scientific research."

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....Citizen_science)

Just like in amateur astronomy and ufology, these person can contribute among other things by gathering data and building new equiments, that might be useful if ever mainstream scientists need to study this field they will have a database and plenty of materials to look at.

By the way, Paranormal investigations is not done solely on TV and let's bear in mind that these show are for entertainment purpose first and that most of the research in this field is not done in front of TV camera.

View Postsinewave, on 30 October 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

The brain is electrochemical so the field certainly could continue for a short time after death.  It won't hang about indefinitely, just until the neuro-chemicals are exhausted - like a battery.

We do not know for sure if the counsciousness can survive death and if the electromagnetic field is desintergrated shortly after . It would be rash to speak with certainty on this topic as it stands today. There are aspects we do not seem to fully comprehend and needless to say it is such a complex subject.

Some Neuroscientists are less shy to raise the topic. One famous Harvard trained neurosurgeon, Eben Alexander even wrote a best seller book Proof Of Heaven describing his NDE.  

Mario Beauregard. Phd of University of Montreal was quoted for his comment on a book concerning research on the afterlife:

“This important book about near-death experiences provides compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity.” — Mario Beauregard, Ph.D., Neuroscientist at the University of Montreal and co-author of The Spiritual Brain

This is a good article as well: http://www2.macleans...he-heaven-boom/


View Postsinewave, on 30 October 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Yep.  There are lots of things that can push that number up even if for only a few seconds at a time.  In any given location there are many possible variables.

There can be natural reasons for a fluctuation, I don't disagree. The first step is to rule out any man-made fluctuation or natural causes. Look for lamps, electrical outlets, Wifi routers ect. In all cases, I don't think anyone has ever taken a EMF reading as a definitive proof of ghost, rather a unusual fluctuations following a personal experience can serve to back up this experience as you have a data that can potentially corroborate it.

Edited by sam_comm, 30 October 2013 - 09:10 PM.


#25    Bicked

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

I have been following Steve Huff and some others for quite awhile now.. Of course the ONLY way to satisfy this curiosity is going to be trying it for ourselves.  There is always going to be people that say its hoax or its gibberish words being plucked from radio stations.. I find it VERY compelling so many people from so many different countries around the world get such similar results. for example, hearing their own names said, multiple times... or having objects correctly Identified. Can we trust all of those people.. No, of course not! Out of so many people, even if just a fraction are legit...its still well worth the first hand checking.. dontchya think?  I hope you do get a ghost box/spirit box! I would love to hear about your testing the method!  I hope to try it eventually myself.  Make sure you have a voice recorder and use that EVERY time you use your spirit box.  Don't want to hear something amazing come through and not have it recorded.. Just in case!  
GOOD LUCK!


#26    sinewave

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:20 PM

View Postsam_comm, on 30 October 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

Not necesserely. An electrician, a plomber, a magician can contribute to this field of research. Even the guy who work at Target can be good for problems solving. This is what we call citizen science.

Formally, citizen science has been defined as "the systematic collection and analysis of data; development of technology; testing of natural phenomena; and the dissemination of these activities by researchers on a primarily avocational basis". Citizen science is sometimes called "public participation in scientific research."

Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....Citizen_science)

Just like in amateur astronomy and ufology, these person can contribute among other things by gathering data and building new equiments, that might be useful if ever mainstream scientists need to study this field they will have a database and plenty of materials to look at.

By the way, Paranormal investigations is not done solely on TV and let's bear in mind that these show are for entertainment purpose first and that most of the research in this field is not done in front of TV camera.

Certainly, the uninitiated can contribute.  I would not suggest otherwise.  The fact is those guys DON'T contribute.  They are merely looking to make entertaining TV for as long as the ratings will support them.  I get that.  Where is the quality work investigators are doing?  What kinds of things have hey established?  Based on the assuptions they make and the tools they feel are useful I am not convinced they are doing anything constructive.  When you get down to it, al they have is belief, perception and misused electronic devices.  Why not just use grapefuits and tennis rackets?  They are probably every bit as effective as the accepted tools.  I really don't understand how learning is going to come from that.  There are no controls or established science in the methods.  


Quote

We do not know for sure if the counsciousness can survive death and if the electromagnetic field is desintergrated shortly after . It would be rash to speak with certainty on this topic as it stands today. There are aspects we do not seem to fully comprehend and needless to say it is such a complex subject.

Some Neuroscientists are less shy to raise the topic. One famous Harvard trained neurosurgeon, Eben Alexander even wrote a best seller book Proof Of Heaven describing his NDE.  

Mario Beauregard. Phd of University of Montreal was quoted for his comment on a book concerning research on the afterlife:

“This important book about near-death experiences provides compelling evidence that mind and consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity.” — Mario Beauregard, Ph.D., Neuroscientist at the University of Montreal and co-author of The Spiritual Brain

This is a good article as well: http://www2.macleans...he-heaven-boom/

You can say maybe this or maybe that but the fact remains the central nervous system is known to be electrochemical in nature.  Once the stored up electrolytes are consumed impulses stop.  As has been pointed out several times by others, scientists are not always right, even Harvard types can be wrong or misinterpret what they experienced.   Hardly proof of anything much less heaven.  Proof is not going to come from and NDE.

Quote

There can be natural reasons for a fluctuation, I don't disagree. The first step is to rule out any man-made fluctuation or natural causes. Look for lamps, electrical outlets, Wifi routers ect. In all cases, I don't think anyone has ever taken a EMF reading as a definitive proof of ghost, rather a unusual fluctuations following a personal experience can serve to back up this experience as you have a data that can potentially corroborate it.

Have you seen my partial lists of EM sources?  You could not possibly rule out enough sources to make your tests valid without a lot of equipment and a solid understanding of physics.  They should not claim any EMF measurements to be evidence of anything other than the presence of EM fields.   That is all they really know.   Do they take the time or have the knowledge to determine the frequency of the field?  How about the direction?  Is the source alternating or direct current?  All three are important details in determining the source.  The fact is, this is far more complicated than you know.


#27    sam_comm

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:07 PM

View Postsinewave, on 01 November 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Certainly, the uninitiated can contribute.  I would not suggest otherwise.  The fact is those guys DON'T contribute.  They are merely looking to make entertaining TV for as long as the ratings will support them.  I get that.  Where is the quality work investigators are doing?  What kinds of things have hey established?  Based on the assuptions they make and the tools they feel are useful I am not convinced they are doing anything constructive.  When you get down to it, al they have is belief, perception and misused electronic devices.  Why not just use grapefuits and tennis rackets?  They are probably every bit as effective as the accepted tools.  I really don't understand how learning is going to come from that.  There are no controls or established science in the methods.
  

You're making an general assessment based on a TV show that you dislike which is unfair. There are investigators doing quality works to understand and document these phenomenon. Have you heard of Wayne Harris Wyrick an astrophysicist director of the Kirkpatrick Planetarium of Science Museum in Oklahoma? He is a member of INsight Paranormal a group investigating according to the scientific methodology.

The thing is, there is no funding whatsoever in the paranormal field of research and no real standard. Everyone can do whatever he likes and think is more efficient and that may look like a real mess. Unfortunately, the negative aspects of the paranormal field overshadow the positive. Some investigators do contribute in an interesting way according the concept of citizen science.

Equipements, especially the EMFs, thermometers and Gerger counters are misused by many groups that is fact. But these equipments, if there are truly of any use in this field, will likely NOT prove the existence of ghosts. DVR systems, handheld camera, thermal camera, audio recorder are the materials that paranormal investigators rely most on. I do think that these cameras and recorders can be used by any capable person with a proper training. The crucial point is in the interpretation of the data and understanding various aspects of the technology.

View Postsinewave, on 01 November 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

You can say maybe this or maybe that but the fact remains the central nervous system is known to be electrochemical in nature.  Once the stored up electrolytes are consumed impulses stop.  As has been pointed out several times by others, scientists are not always right, even Harvard types can be wrong or misinterpret what they experienced.   Hardly proof of anything much less heaven.  Proof is not going to come from and NDE..

I do not dispute that the brain is electrochemical. But how does that rule out the possiblity that the electromagnetic field of our conscious mind might not desintergrate shortly after we die? The fact is that there is not much certainty in that regard. Only hypothesises.

I was refering to Dr Eben Alexander and Dr Mario Beauregard to point out that even neuroscientists can have astonishing views on the possiblity of Life avec Death. So there is a mouvement even in the academic level. This is relevant to the concept of Ghost discussed here. Is it really surprising that paranomal investiators are exploring these controversial ideas and apply them to their controversial field? Not at all.

View Postsinewave, on 01 November 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

Have you seen my partial lists of EM sources?  You could not possibly rule out enough sources to make your tests valid without a lot of equipment and a solid understanding of physics.  They should not claim any EMF measurements to be evidence of anything other than the presence of EM fields.   That is all they really know.   Do they take the time or have the knowledge to determine the frequency of the field?  How about the direction?  Is the source alternating or direct current?  All three are important details in determining the source.  The fact is, this is far more complicated than you know.

I just want to clarify, not to be misinterpreted, that unusual EMF spike do not in general indicate the presence of a ghost. Electrical sources are everywhere, that's true. We live in countries where electricity is all around us. Does that rule out the possibility that the effect of a ''ghostly'' presence can be measured in some cases with a EMF meter? I think not but you can't use that as a proof for all to see. I would say though that you loose nothing using a meter not solely in the attempt to measure a ''ghostly'' presence but to detect high EMF fields that can be harmful and create side affects, which can be the cause of alleged ''paranormal'' experiences.

Edited by sam_comm, 02 November 2013 - 07:32 PM.


#28    sinewave

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 10:14 PM

View Postsam_comm, on 02 November 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

You're making an general assessment based on a TV show that you dislike which is unfair. There are investigators doing quality works to understand and document these phenomenon. Have you heard of Wayne Harris Wyrick an astrophysicist director of the Kirkpatrick Planetarium of Science Museum in Oklahoma? He is a member of INsight Paranormal a group investigating according to the scientific methodology.

I asked before.  Where is the quality work and what has been determined?

Quote

The thing is, there is no funding whatsoever in the paranormal field of research and no real standard. Everyone can do whatever he likes and think is more efficient and that may look like a real mess. Unfortunately, the negative aspects of the paranormal field overshadow the positive. Some investigators do contribute in an interesting way according the concept of citizen science.

Where is this positive work?  It is not a matter of funding it is a matter of evidence.  Research funding only flows when there is sufficient evidence.  Some aspects of paranormal belief were funded and for decades.  There were even entire departments setup in major universities to explore the possibilities.  They all dried up because not a shred of evidence was ever produced.  There is no standard because there is no connection to established science from which to build.  


Quote

Equipements, especially the EMFs, thermometers and Gerger counters are misused by many groups that is fact. But these equipments, if there are truly of any use in this field, will likely NOT prove the existence of ghosts. DVR systems, handheld camera, thermal camera, audio recorder are the materials that paranormal investigators rely most on. I do think that these cameras and recorders can be used by any capable person with a proper training. The crucial point is in the interpretation of the data and understanding various aspects of the technology.

No amount of training will make up for the limitations of those devices.  But first things first!  There has to be a reason to use a device in the first place.  Without established science and sound logic, the data collected with those devices is meaningless.  

Quote

I do not dispute that the brain is electrochemical. But how does that rule out the possiblity that the electromagnetic field of our conscious mind might not desintergrate shortly after we die? The fact is that there is not much certainty in that regard. Only hypothesises.

I was refering to Dr Eben Alexander and Dr Mario Beauregard to point out that even neuroscientists can have astonishing views on the possiblity of Life avec Death. So there is a mouvement even in the academic level. This is relevant to the concept of Ghost discussed here. Is it really surprising that paranomal investiators are exploring these controversial ideas and apply them to their controversial field? Not at all.

There have been many such assertions but nothing has ever come of them.  


Quote

I just want to clarify, not to be misinterpreted, that unusual EMF spike do not in general indicate the presence of a ghost. Electrical sources are everywhere, that's true. We live in countries where electricity is all around us. Does that rule out the possibility that the effect of a ''ghostly'' presence can be measured in some cases with a EMF meter? I think not but you can't use that as a proof for all to see. I would say though that you loose nothing using a meter not solely in the attempt to measure a ''ghostly'' presence but to detect high EMF fields that can be harmful and create side affects, which can be the cause of alleged ''paranormal'' experiences.

It does not rule out the possibility but you still have to do the work to identify the source of the field.


#29    Paranormal_Fascination

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:49 AM

View Postsinewave, on 13 October 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Most smart phones, like the iPhone contain several sensors.  They typically have light detectors for adjusting the screen brightness, a proximity sensor for turning off the display when the phone is close to your face, an accelerometer for detecting movement and orientation, gyroscope for enhanced motion detection, and a magnetometer for compass functions.  There are many EMF detector apps that use the magnetometer to sense changes in the ambient magnetic field.  

The idea behind EMF detectors the way ghost busters use them is predicated on the assumption that ghosts are electromagnetic in nature.  So if ghosts exist and they are in fact electromagnetic that puts them is a very large club with thousands of natural and man made sources of EMF.  Here is a partial list of what might also be moving the meter of your EMF detector:

Transformers including CFLs
Live electrical wiring
Radio and TV broadcasts including commercial radio, HAM, CB, police, fire, and military radio bands.
Microwave ovens
Terrestrial telecommunications relays
Satellite relays
Cell towers
RADAR used for weather, navigation, air traffic control
Garage door openers
Electric generators
Automotive ignition systems
Electric motors
Cell phones
Wifi access points
Computers
Wireless devices including toys, cordless phones, baby monitors,and Bluetooth
Digital recording devices
Locomotives
Static electricity on your body/clothing
Your nervous system
Earth's magnetosphere
The piezoelectric effect
Cosmic radiation
Solar flares, sun spots, CMEs
Electrical storms (even ones 100 miles away)
Geologic formations

There are many, many more and you don't even have to be close to some of them to detect their fields.  We are bathed in EM fields every minute of every day no matter where we are and the likelihood of you being able to determine the source of a subtle flicker on your EMF meter is ridiculously small.  For EMF results to be valid, you would have to control out everything listed above and more.  


Ghost boxes are just radio scanners.  They scan randomly or sequentially though a given part of the RF spectrum outputting bits of audio along the way.  The audio is not voices from the other side but rather small chunks of commercial broadcasts mixed up in a random sequence.  

There is no science to ghost hunting despite all of the electronic devices carried by ghost busters.


Edited by Paranormal_Fascination, 07 November 2013 - 06:50 AM.


#30    Paranormal_Fascination

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:51 AM

So, if its picking up just mixed broadcasts, how can they answer/make sense to the questions being asked during an EVP session?

Edited by Paranormal_Fascination, 07 November 2013 - 06:51 AM.





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