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Did ancient native American seafarers cross


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#31    The Puzzler

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 01:46 PM

Hey look Abe, I found a book.

THE AMERICAN DISCOVERY OF EUROPE

http://search.barnes...e/9780252031526

by this guy, could hardly knock his credentials:

Jack D. Forbes is professor of Native American studies and anthropology emeritus at the University of California, Davis. He is the author or editor of seventeen books, including Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples.

Some from the book review:

Synopsis
An independent and indigenous revision of established history

The American Discovery of Europe investigates the voyages of America’s Native peoples to the European continent before Columbus’s 1492 arrival in the “New World.” The product of over twenty years of exhaustive research in libraries throughout Europe and the United States, Jack D. Forbes employs a vast number of primary and secondary sources to paint a clear picture of the diverse and complex societies that comprised the Americas before 1492 and reveals the surprising Native American involvements in maritime trade and exploration.

Starting with an encounter by Columbus himself with mysterious people who had apparently been carried across the Atlantic on favorable currents, Forbes proceeds to a detailed discussion of ocean currents and then to exploring the seagoing expertise of early Americans in the Caribbean, on the coasts of Greenland, and beyond. He also discusses theories of ancient migrations, the evidence for human origins in the Americas, and other early visitors coming from Europe to America, including the Norse. The book closes with a discussion of Native travelers to Europe after 1493, when they came mostly as slaves. The provocative, extensively documented, and heartfelt conclusions of The American Discovery of Europe present an open challenge to received historical wisdom. This book will be of lasting importance to Native people and redefine the way future scholarship views American history.


Elizabeth Salt Copyright 2007 Reed Business Information - Library Journal

How much contact did Native Americans have with Europe in both the pre-Columbian and immediate post-contact time periods? Forbes (Native American studies & anthropology, emeritus, Univ. of California, Davis; Africans and Native Americans) attempts to make the case that a great deal of interaction occurred. He describes both supposed planned voyages and accidental trips (canoes being blown east by storms) by Native Americans to Europe during the centuries before Columbus's voyage in 1492. While Forbes thoroughly documents his sources, he makes frequent wide-ranging assumptions related to pre-Columbian Native American voyages based upon small bits of possible evidence. Post-contact reports of the kidnapping, enslavement, and shipment of significant numbers of indigenous American people to Europe by the Portuguese, Spanish, English, and Dutch in the 16th and 17th centuries are generally better documented and more widely accepted by anthropologists and historians.



A possibility it seems.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#32    Oniomancer

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 04:39 PM

View Postbelial, on 21 February 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

Click mE
The Norse used low buildings that were usually some combination of sod, timber and fieldstone and rarely if ever exceeded a single story in height. WTF would a glorified pirate who spent most of his off time farming know about how to build elaborate dressed stone megastructures?

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#33    jaylemurph

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 04:57 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:39 AM, said:

The native Americans *I* know don't have much if any facial hair (and I do know; the daughter of a couple was sitting on my lap while I was posting about all this - Aruba).


...I'm surprised that you chided someone for Euro-centric thinking and then posted this. First of all, it's not like there's one uniform, fungible cultural or genetic grouping of Native Americans. Some Native Americans can do go grow substantial facial hair.

(There was a mod around here who used exactly the same argument -- /I/ have never seen an NA with facial hair, so clearly none have it -- and I thought that was a bit short-sighted, too. He was also an intelligent, interesting poster, so I was just as surprised to see him say this!)

Uhhh, not that I'm promoting the theory they're related to the Sumerians or anything. Just to be clear.

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#34    Qoais

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 05:12 PM

From the link Belial gave:

The Viking-Maya Connection
Did The Vikings Ever Sail to Latin America?

May 9, 2007 Vickie Britton

The legend of Quetzalcoatl is known throughout Latin America, although he is called by many different names.

The Legend of Quetazlcoatl
The Quetzalcoatl legend is known throughout Mesoamerica . Some legends refer to Quetzalcoatl as a god, others a stranger from a distant land who sailed to their shores upon a “magic raft of serpents."

The feathered serpent god is commonly referred to as Quetzalcoatl. The name Quetzalcoatl has Toltec/Aztec origins. A series of invasions by the Toltecs, which led to a blending of cultures, introduced the feathered serpent god to the Mayas, where he was later referred to as Kukulcan.

Two male heroes similar to the god Quetzalcoatl appear in Mayan lore. Itzamna and Kukulcan were both portrayed as bearded men who led their ancestors into the Yucatan. Itazmna was known as a guide who helped build up the great cities and who invented the letters that make up the Mayan language. Kukulcan, was referred to as a great architect, a builder of pyramids.

Could all of these legends be based on one real person? And could that person have been a Norseman?

The Murals
A red-bearded man’s likeness appears on many stone carvings in the Mayan ruins of Chiche?n Itza in the Yucatan, Copan, Honduras, and other places in Latin America. There are also murals depicting bearded warriors dressed in armor and helmets which could be relating an account of a foreign invasion by some ancient people.

Early Viking Voyages
It has been established that both Eric the Red and Leif Erickson reached the New World 500 years before Columbus. To date, the only truly authenticated Viking site is L’Anse aux Meadows, at the northern tip of Newfoundland, where the remains of Norse-style dwellings and artifacts have been found.

The Lost Viking Ship
Around 967 AD, it was recorded that a Viking ship led by Ullmann on the way to Iceland was driven by strong ocean currents and blown off course. Could this ship have ended up in Central America?

Was such a Voyage Possible?
The likelihood that Vikings may have touched upon Caribbean shores was not given much credibility because it was believed such a voyage would not have possible. Then, in 1947, Thor Heyerdahl tested the possibility by recreating a reed boat using materials such as the Vikings, Phoenicians and other cultures would have used at that time. The Kon Tiki’s voyage of over 4,300 miles proved that ancient navigators could have sailed much farther than originally believed.

A link between the Vikings and the early cultures of the Yucatan and Central America has never been proven. If Viking artifacts ever existed, they have been lost with the passage of time. If the Vikings ever did visit Central America, the only traces left are the curious images of a red-bearded man caved in stone.


http://archaeology.s...maya_connection

If these "gods" were Norsemen, and they taught their letters and language to the people, wouldn't we have some evidence of this writing somewhere in S. America giving an indication that it's connected to the Norse runes?  And again, I ask about the facial hair.

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#35    Abramelin

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 05:58 PM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 21 February 2010 - 08:32 AM, said:

We are not talking about the past few decades.



Doing something and living something is vastly different. The Polynesians were a sea-based culture for whom heading off towards the next piece of land was the natural thing to do, because they've been living like that for hundreds of years. There was one single segment of the Mayan peoples who ventured onto the sea and even they weren't dependent on it.

All marine explorers came from nations with a strong naval tradition/culture. The Maya had no such thing.



Could you please prove this? I'm yet to see any connection between Tlapallan and Kukulkan.  



The guy who mentioned Atlantis.



No. It's a realistic look on things. Exactly why is Eurocentric to say that Mayans had no absolutely reason to do something they did not do?


Oh, and could you please prove your statement that the Maya had sails?


"We are not talking about the past few decades."

No, actually I was talking in general: people (in general, now and then) tend to do illogical and crazy things on a frequent basis.

"Could you please prove this? I'm yet to see any connection between Tlapallan and Kukulkan."

That was my mistake, I meant the Mayas borrowed some of the myths from the Toltec (or whatever their true name must have been).
It is said that Kukulkan is a literal translation of the Nahua Quetzalcoatl, "Feathered Serpent".
Now I cannot prove this - I read it in a book, long ago - but the Maya also adopted other legends from the tribes (Toltecs?) that conquered them. So maybe they also had a Mayan translation for the Nahua "Tlapallan".


"There was one single segment of the Mayan peoples who ventured onto the sea and even they weren't dependent on it. "

That were the Chontal Mayas, and whether they were dependent on it, they did it anyway. And they could have learned a thing or two from the Carib/Arawak tribes who appear to have been great seafarers.


"No. It's a realistic look on things. Exactly why is Eurocentric to say that Mayans had no absolutely reason to do something they did not do?"

Because you look at it with a modern Eurocentric (better word: modern western) mindset. And I already posted about what could have motivated them, apart from trade.


"Oh, and could you please prove your statement that the Maya had sails?"

That is the most interesting question, please read this http://www.jstor.org/pss/681400

And this is about seafaring Arawaks, not Mayas:
http://www.penn.muse.../14-3/Easby.pdf

"Meanwhile Columbus had reported huge dugout "canoes" with 70 and 80 paddlers, and one in Cuba big enough for 150 men and 70 feet long. Later in Jamaica he measured one of 96 feet. The large vessels has sails that could be used if the wind and the strong currents were favorable. The ubliquios dugouts ranged in size down to one-man canoes, and there were also rafts."


Now this is based on early reports, and it would not be a surprise to me that
-1- Columbus and his men could not distinguish between seafaring Arawak and Maya
-2- the Mayas had been in contact with these Arawak, and
-3- that they may have learned to sail the seas - with sails - from these Arawak/Carib.


EDITED to add NOT in statement -1-
.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 February 2010 - 06:32 PM.


#36    Qoais

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 06:05 PM

Here's the link to the pie chart Cormac gave me when we talked about who went where once before.

http://www.familytre...enetic-Tree.pdf

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

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#37    Abramelin

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 06:09 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 21 February 2010 - 04:57 PM, said:

...I'm surprised that you chided someone for Euro-centric thinking and then posted this. First of all, it's not like there's one uniform, fungible cultural or genetic grouping of Native Americans. Some Native Americans can do go grow substantial facial hair.

(There was a mod around here who used exactly the same argument -- /I/ have never seen an NA with facial hair, so clearly none have it -- and I thought that was a bit short-sighted, too. He was also an intelligent, interesting poster, so I was just as surprised to see him say this!)

Uhhh, not that I'm promoting the theory they're related to the Sumerians or anything. Just to be clear.

--Jaylemurph

This was what I said:

Quote

The native Americans *I* know don't have much if any facial hair



#38    Abramelin

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 06:12 PM

View PostQoais, on 21 February 2010 - 05:12 PM, said:

From the link Belial gave:

The Viking-Maya Connection
Did The Vikings Ever Sail to Latin America?

May 9, 2007 Vickie Britton


But I am trying to tell here about Native Americans sailing in the opposite direction....


#39    Abramelin

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 06:14 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 21 February 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

Hey look Abe, I found a book.

THE AMERICAN DISCOVERY OF EUROPE

http://search.barnes...e/9780252031526

by this guy, could hardly knock his credentials:

Jack D. Forbes is professor of Native American studies and anthropology emeritus at the University of California, Davis. He is the author or editor of seventeen books, including Africans and Native Americans: The Language of Race and the Evolution of Red-Black Peoples.

Some from the book review:

Synopsis
An independent and indigenous revision of established history

The American Discovery of Europe investigates the voyages of America's Native peoples to the European continent before Columbus's 1492 arrival in the "New World." The product of over twenty years of exhaustive research in libraries throughout Europe and the United States, Jack D. Forbes employs a vast number of primary and secondary sources to paint a clear picture of the diverse and complex societies that comprised the Americas before 1492 and reveals the surprising Native American involvements in maritime trade and exploration.

Starting with an encounter by Columbus himself with mysterious people who had apparently been carried across the Atlantic on favorable currents, Forbes proceeds to a detailed discussion of ocean currents and then to exploring the seagoing expertise of early Americans in the Caribbean, on the coasts of Greenland, and beyond. He also discusses theories of ancient migrations, the evidence for human origins in the Americas, and other early visitors coming from Europe to America, including the Norse. The book closes with a discussion of Native travelers to Europe after 1493, when they came mostly as slaves. The provocative, extensively documented, and heartfelt conclusions of The American Discovery of Europe present an open challenge to received historical wisdom. This book will be of lasting importance to Native people and redefine the way future scholarship views American history.


Elizabeth Salt Copyright 2007 Reed Business Information - Library Journal

How much contact did Native Americans have with Europe in both the pre-Columbian and immediate post-contact time periods? Forbes (Native American studies & anthropology, emeritus, Univ. of California, Davis; Africans and Native Americans) attempts to make the case that a great deal of interaction occurred. He describes both supposed planned voyages and accidental trips (canoes being blown east by storms) by Native Americans to Europe during the centuries before Columbus's voyage in 1492. While Forbes thoroughly documents his sources, he makes frequent wide-ranging assumptions related to pre-Columbian Native American voyages based upon small bits of possible evidence. Post-contact reports of the kidnapping, enslavement, and shipment of significant numbers of indigenous American people to Europe by the Portuguese, Spanish, English, and Dutch in the 16th and 17th centuries are generally better documented and more widely accepted by anthropologists and historians.



A possibility it seems.


"A possibility it seems."

Yes, and that's what this is all about: a possibility.

Thanks for the post, Puzzler.


#40    Qoais

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 06:40 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 06:12 PM, said:

But I am trying to tell here about Native Americans sailing in the opposite direction....

I'm just trying to point out that it may have been a two-way  street----uh, um, current!!

Edited by Qoais, 21 February 2010 - 06:41 PM.

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."

#41    Abramelin

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 06:14 PM, said:

"A possibility it seems."

Yes, and that's what this is all about: a possibility.

Thanks for the post, Puzzler.

Btw, I read a sample of the first chapter of that book, Puzzler:


"Sometime during the 1470's a group of Native Americans followed the Gulf Stream from the Americas to Ireland. We don't know if they were from the Caribbean region or from North America. We don't know if their journey was intentional or if they were driven eastward by a storm. What we do know is that two or more Americans, at least a man and a woman, reached Galway Bay, Ireland, and were there seen by Christoforo Colomb (Columbus) long prior to his famous voyage of 1492.

This momentous event, largely ignored by white historians, marks a beginning of the modern age, since it is precisely because of this experience that Columbus possessed the absolute certainty that he could sail westward to Cathay (Katayo or China) and India."

http://search2.barne...n=9780252031526


Oh hell, you can read the book here:

http://books.google....page&q=&f=false
.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 February 2010 - 07:08 PM.


#42    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:04 PM

View PostQoais, on 21 February 2010 - 05:12 PM, said:


The likelihood that Vikings may have touched upon Caribbean shores was not given much credibility because it was believed such a voyage would not have possible. Then, in 1947, Thor Heyerdahl tested the possibility by recreating a reed boat using materials such as the Vikings, Phoenicians and other cultures would have used at that time. The Kon Tiki’s voyage of over 4,300 miles proved that ancient navigators could have sailed much farther than originally believed.


That's a little confused: Heyerdahl's 1947 voyage ("Kon-tiki") went west from the west coast of South America, on a South-American-style Balsa raft, to prove that the Polynesia could have been settled from America. The reed boats ("Ra" and "Ra 2") were of ancient Egyptian design, to see if the Egyptians could have reached America (from Morocco). The first one sank but the second one made it. This was in the late 60s - early 70s.

None of these expeditions had anything to do with Vikings or Phoenicians.

Edited by PersonFromPorlock, 21 February 2010 - 07:08 PM.


#43    marcos anthony toledo

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:13 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

Btw, I read a sample of the first chapter of that book, Puzzler:


"Sometime during the 1470's a group of Native Americans followed the Gulf Stream from the Americas to Ireland. We don't know if they were from the Caribbean region or from North America. We don't know if their journey was intentional or if they were driven eastward by a storm. What we do know is that two or more Americans, at least a man and a woman, reached Galway Bay, Ireland, and were there seen by Christoforo Colomb (Columbus) long prior to his famous voyage of 1492.

This momentous event, largely ignored by white historians, marks a beginning of the modern age, since it is precisely because of this experience that Columbus possessed the absolute certainty that he could sail westward to Cathay (Katayo or China) and India."

http://search2.barne...n=9780252031526


Oh hell, you can read the book here:

http://books.google....page&q=&f=false
.



#44    marcos anthony toledo

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:23 PM

I the book THEY ALL DISCOVERED AMERICA it is mention that during the period that the romans were invadeing gaul that to captives of american origins were givean to the romans in unkown deal.


#45    Abramelin

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:44 PM

View Postmarcos anthony toledo, on 21 February 2010 - 07:23 PM, said:

I the book THEY ALL DISCOVERED AMERICA it is mention that during the period that the romans were invadeing gaul that to captives of american origins were givean to the romans in unkown deal.


Hi Marcos,

I don't know that book, and I've never heard of any captive native Americans being handed over by the Gauls to the invading Romans.

Of course I've Googled like crazy, but was unable to find anything about that online.

You have anything more on that, like links to Roman sources?





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