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Jesus was born years earlier than thought

pope jesus dionysius exiguus

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#106    docyabut2

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostJor-el, on 20 May 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Why would you think that?

You are assuming two things here...

1. That the census referred to in Luke was the census under Quirinius of 6–7 A.D. It is not, since the census mentions the entire Roman world took part, not just Syria and Iudaea.
2. That the bible must have an error in its chronological narrative, it does not, Jesus was in fact born under Herod the Great, who contrary to popular perception died in 1 B.C. not 4 B.C., this is now admitted by a number of historians.

As I said earlier, the census of Luke was not a census at all and is actually referred to by Josephus himself...

For there was a certain sect of men that were Jews, who valued themselves highly upon the exact skill they had in the law of their fathers, and made men believe they were highly favored by God, by whom this set of women were inveigled. These are those that are called the sect of the Pharisees, who were in a capacity of greatly opposing kings. A cunning sect they were, and soon elevated to a pitch of open fighting and doing mischief. Accordingly, when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their good-will to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men did not swear, being above six thousand; and when the king imposed a fine upon them, Pheroras's wife paid their fine for them. In order to requite which kindness of hers, since they were believed to have the foreknowledge of things to come by Divine inspiration, they foretold how God had decreed that Herod's government should cease, and his posterity should be deprived of it; but that the kingdom should come to her and Pheroras, and to their children. These predictions were not concealed from Salome, but were told the king; as also how they had perverted some persons about the palace itself; so the king slew such of the Pharisees as were principally accused, and Bagoas the eunuch, and one Carus, who exceeded all men of that time in comeliness, and one that was his catamite. He slew also all those of his own family who had consented to what the Pharisees foretold; and for Bagoas, he had been puffed up by them, as though he should be named the father and the benefactor of him who, by the prediction, was foretold to be their appointed king; for that this king would have all things in his power, and would enable Bagoas to marry, and to have children of his own body begotten.



Josephus, Antiquities XVII.2.4.


The reference is that all the people were required to offer an oath of allegiance to Augustus Caesar, this was done throughout the Roman world, and also in Israel, since Herod was known as friend and Ally to Caesar.

Documented archaeological evidence of this is also found in Paphlagonia (north central Asia Minor) that is clearly dated to 3 B.C. records an oath of obedience "taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them." (Lewis and Reinhold, Roman Civilization, II.Pages 34–35).

In the third year from the twelfth consulship of the Emperor Caesar Augustus, son of a god, March 6, in the … at Gangra, the following Oath was taken by the inhabitants of Paphlagonia and the Roman businessmen dwelling among them:

“I swear by Jupiter, Earth, Sun, by all the gods and goddesses, and by Augustus himself, that I will be loyal to Caesar Augustus and to his children and descendants all my life in word, in deed, and in thought, regarding as friends whomever they so regard, and considering as enemies whomever they so adjudge; that in defense of their interests I will spare neither body, soul, life, not children, but will in every way undergo every danger in defense of their interests; that whenever I perceive or hear anything being said or planned or done against them I will lodge information about this and will be an enemy to whoever says or plans or does any such thing; and that whomever they adjudge to be enemies I will by land and sea, with weapons and sword, pursue and punish. But if I do anything contrary to this oath, or not in conformity with what I swore, I myself call down upon myself, my body, my soul, my life, my children, and all my family and property, utter ruin and utter destruction unto all my issue and all my descendants, and may neither earth nor sea receive the bodies of my family or my descendants, or yield fruits to them.”

The same Oath was sworn by all the people in the land at altars of Augustus in the temples of Augustus in the various districts. In this manner did the people of Phazimon, who inhabit the city now called Neapolis, all together swear the Oath in the temple of Augustus at the altar of Augustus.


Lewis and M. Reinhold, Roman Civilization, Sourcebook II: The Empire (New York 1966) 34-35


This is the only "census" that included the entire Roman world. The reason for the misunderstanding is simple, the actual Greek says "enrollment" or "registered" but it is translated "census" or "taxed" into English.

Used in a common phrase, the meaning takes on a different idea... I enrolled for a course in history, for this semester.

The word is used also in Hebrews 12:23.

23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, (NIV)
23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, (ESV)

And yet it is the very same word, ἀπογραφή apographē.

Sorry did mean to say earlier :)


#107    docyabut2

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:56 AM

Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD. He was the son of Herod the Great and Malthace the Samaritan, the brother of Herod Antipas, and the half-brother of Herod Philip I.

Archelaus comes to power at the death of his father, Herod the Great, and the main development from the death of Herod through the important early reign of Archelaus is described by the Roman Historian Josephus in two passages, in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 8, Section 4 and on into Chapter 9, and also in Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 1.[1] A momentous event took place at the end of the mourning for Herod that ended with the cancellation of Passover and the death of perhaps thousands, the figure of 3000 being given by Josephus.Herod has killed all Male Lineal Successors of the Hasmoneans.


Pehaps Jesus was conceived  when Archelaus was  putting thousands to death after his father died and shorty after when a census was taken, he was only in power for two years,giving that order that children be killed under the age of two.


http://en.wikipedia....Herod_Archelaus


#108    docyabut2

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 02:25 PM

Regarding the Massacre of the Innocents, although Herod the great was guilty of many brutal acts including the killing of his wife and two of his sons, no other source from the period refers to the massacre.[31]


http://en.wikipedia....Herod_the_Great


#109    Jor-el

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 May 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:


Sorry did mean to say earlier :)

The historical context does not allow for Jesus to have been born under Herod Archelaus.

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#110    Jor-el

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:51 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 May 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

Herod Archelaus (23 BC – c. 18 AD) was the ethnarch of Samaria, Judea, and Idumea (biblical Edom) from 4 BC to 6 AD. He was the son of Herod the Great and Malthace the Samaritan, the brother of Herod Antipas, and the half-brother of Herod Philip I.

Archelaus comes to power at the death of his father, Herod the Great, and the main development from the death of Herod through the important early reign of Archelaus is described by the Roman Historian Josephus in two passages, in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 8, Section 4 and on into Chapter 9, and also in Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 1.[1] A momentous event took place at the end of the mourning for Herod that ended with the cancellation of Passover and the death of perhaps thousands, the figure of 3000 being given by Josephus.Herod has killed all Male Lineal Successors of the Hasmoneans.


Pehaps Jesus was conceived  when Archelaus was  putting thousands to death after his father died and shorty after when a census was taken, he was only in power for two years,giving that order that children be killed under the age of two.


http://en.wikipedia....Herod_Archelaus

And why do you believe that Jesus birth could have taken place under Herod Archelaus? Merely due to the census of 5-6 A.D.?

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#111    Jor-el

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 07:20 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 May 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Regarding the Massacre of the Innocents, although Herod the great was guilty of many brutal acts including the killing of his wife and two of his sons, no other source from the period refers to the massacre.[31]


http://en.wikipedia....Herod_the_Great

There is no historical evidence of any kind anywhere relating to the massacre of the innocents, but there is precedent. It is not inconceivable that he could kill a few dozen children under the age of 2 in a small town called Bethlehem, and the reason does not limit itself to the Messiah being born there. Bethlehem was the home village of the family of the Davidic line. Jesse the father of David was from Bethlehem, the family line continued to live in that village and were probably the majority of the local population.

When Mary and Joseph were forced to give the oath of allegiance, they could have done so anywhere, they did not have to logically return to the home of their family to do so, so why did they have to travel to Bethlehem?

They were forced to do so because King Herod wanted to keep an eye on that family line, they were the legitimate heirs of the kingdom of Israel. Herod used the oath of allegiance, mentioned by Josephus and Luke 2 as a pretext to gather the family in one single area and get there names so he knew who they all were.

When the magi arrived and mentioned the birth of a new king, he was disturbed and when confirmation came that this supposed king was to be born in Bethlehem, he ordered the massacre of all the male children under two years of age.

I think only a few children were actually killed by Herods soldiers, and that is why it isn't even a footnote in history. Bethlehem was small, it can't even have been considered a town. As a matter of fact, archaeological digs can't find any evidence of a town or city in that area at the time of Jesus.

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#112    docyabut2

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 May 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

There is no historical evidence of any kind anywhere relating to the massacre of the innocents, but there is precedent. It is not inconceivable that he could kill a few dozen children under the age of 2 in a small town called Bethlehem, and the reason does not limit itself to the Messiah being born there. Bethlehem was the home village of the family of the Davidic line. Jesse the father of David was from Bethlehem, the family line continued to live in that village and were probably the majority of the local population.

When Mary and Joseph were forced to give the oath of allegiance, they could have done so anywhere, they did not have to logically return to the home of their family to do so, so why did they have to travel to Bethlehem?

They were forced to do so because King Herod wanted to keep an eye on that family line, they were the legitimate heirs of the kingdom of Israel. Herod used the oath of allegiance, mentioned by Josephus and Luke 2 as a pretext to gather the family in one single area and get there names so he knew who they all were.

When the magi arrived and mentioned the birth of a new king, he was disturbed and when confirmation came that this supposed king was to be born in Bethlehem, he ordered the massacre of all the male children under two years of age.
I think only a few children were actually killed by Herods soldiers, and that is why it isn't even a footnote in history. Bethlehem was small, it can't even have been considered a town. As a matter of fact, archaeological digs can't find any evidence of a town or city in that area at the time of Jesus.


Right, there is no record of a massacre under King Herod The Great.  But there is under his son Archelaus Herod, a massacre of children and 3000 people according to Josephus, that may have been what the writers were refering to in the story of Jesus.I

In the Bible, Archelaus is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew 2:13-23, Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents. When Herod the Great died, Joseph was told by an angel in a dream to return to Israel (presumably to Bethlehem). However, upon hearing that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he "was afraid to go thither" (Matthew 2:22), and was again notified in a dream to go to Galilee. This is Matthew's explanation of why Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea but grew up in Nazareth.

See Source

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 May 2013 - 06:45 AM.
added source


#113    Jor-el

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 May 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Right, there is no record of a massacre under King Herod The Great.  But there is under his son Archelaus Herod, a massacre of children and 3000 people according to Josephus, that may have been what the writers were refering to in the story of Jesus.I

In the Bible, Archelaus is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew 2:13-23, Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents. When Herod the Great died, Joseph was told by an angel in a dream to return to Israel (presumably to Bethlehem). However, upon hearing that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he "was afraid to go thither" (Matthew 2:22), and was again notified in a dream to go to Galilee. This is Matthew's explanation of why Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea but grew up in Nazareth.

Can you provide the relevant paragraph and location in Josephus works please.

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#114    docyabut2

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:47 PM

View PostJor-el, on 21 May 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Can you provide the relevant paragraph and location in Josephus works please.


Archelaus comes to power at the death of his father, Herod the Great, and the main development from the death of Herod through the important early reign of Archelaus is described by the Roman Historian Josephus in two passages, in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 8, Section 4 and on into Chapter 9, and also in Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 1.[1] A momentous event took place at the end of the mourning for Herod that ended with the cancellation of Passover and the death of perhaps thousands, the figure of 3000 being given by Josephus.

Source

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 May 2013 - 06:46 AM.
Added source


#115    Jor-el

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 10:21 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 21 May 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Archelaus comes to power at the death of his father, Herod the Great, and the main development from the death of Herod through the important early reign of Archelaus is described by the Roman Historian Josephus in two passages, in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 17, Chapter 8, Section 4 and on into Chapter 9, and also in Wars of the Jews, Book 2, Chapter 1.[1] A momentous event took place at the end of the mourning for Herod that ended with the cancellation of Passover and the death of perhaps thousands, the figure of 3000 being given by Josephus.

The relevant passages say nothing about children, it just mentions that 3000 people were killed by soldiers after having rioted and killed a number of the kings soldiers. The killings were done in retaliation for this act. These would have been men, not children or women.

3. At these clamors Archelaus was provoked, but restrained himself from taking vengeance on the authors, on account of the haste he was in of going to Rome, as fearing lest, upon his making war on the multitude, such an action might detain him at home. Accordingly, he made trial to quiet the innovators by persuasion, rather than by force, and sent his general in a private way to them, and by him exhorted them to be quiet. But the seditious threw stones at him, and drove him away, as he came into the temple, and before he could say any thing to them. The like treatment they showed to others, who came to them after him, many of which were sent by Archelaus, in order to reduce them to sobriety, and these answered still on all occasions after a passionate manner; and it openly appeared that they would not be quiet, if their numbers were but considerable. And indeed, at the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the Passover, and used to he celebrated with a great number of sacrifices, an innumerable multitude of the people came out of the country to worship; some of these stood in the temple bewailing the Rabbins [that had been put to death], and procured their sustenance by begging, in order to support their sedition. At this Archclaus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival.

http://ancienthistor...ks/JOSEPHUS.HTM

Edited by Jor-el, 21 May 2013 - 10:22 PM.

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#116    docyabut2

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:15 AM

View PostJor-el, on 21 May 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

The relevant passages say nothing about children, it just mentions that 3000 people were killed by soldiers after having rioted and killed a number of the kings soldiers. The killings were done in retaliation for this act. These would have been men, not children or women.

3. At these clamors Archelaus was provoked, but restrained himself from taking vengeance on the authors, on account of the haste he was in of going to Rome, as fearing lest, upon his making war on the multitude, such an action might detain him at home. Accordingly, he made trial to quiet the innovators by persuasion, rather than by force, and sent his general in a private way to them, and by him exhorted them to be quiet. But the seditious threw stones at him, and drove him away, as he came into the temple, and before he could say any thing to them. The like treatment they showed to others, who came to them after him, many of which were sent by Archelaus, in order to reduce them to sobriety, and these answered still on all occasions after a passionate manner; and it openly appeared that they would not be quiet, if their numbers were but considerable. And indeed, at the feast of unleavened bread, which was now at hand, and is by the Jews called the Passover, and used to he celebrated with a great number of sacrifices, an innumerable multitude of the people came out of the country to worship; some of these stood in the temple bewailing the Rabbins [that had been put to death], and procured their sustenance by begging, in order to support their sedition. At this Archclaus was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet. At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief; nor did it appear to Archelaus that the multitude could be restrained without bloodshed; so he sent his whole army upon them, the footmen in great multitudes, by the way of the city, and the horsemen by the way of the plain, who, falling upon them on the sudden, as they were offering their sacrifices, destroyed about three thousand of them; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed upon the adjoining mountains: these were followed by Archelaus's heralds, who commanded every one to retire to their own homes, whither they all went, and left the festival.

http://ancienthistor...ks/JOSEPHUS.HTM

Archelaus Herod has killed all Male Lineal Successors of the Hasmoneans.

Would`nt that have included a lot of their male children being kill at the time to?

Edited by docyabut2, 22 May 2013 - 09:23 AM.


#117    docyabut2

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 10:42 AM

In the Bible, Archelaus is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew 2:13-23, Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents. When Herod the Great died, Joseph was told by an angel in a dream to return to Israel (presumably to Bethlehem). However, upon hearing that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he "was afraid to go thither" (Matthew 2:22), and was again notified in a dream to go to Galilee. This is Matthew's explanation of why Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea but grew up in Nazareth.

Source

Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 May 2013 - 06:47 AM.
Added source


#118    docyabut2

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 12:29 PM

Doesn`t that mean when Herod the great died  in 1 B.C Joseph, Mary  fled to Egypt, from the Massacre of the Innocents, but return to Bethlehem where Jesus was born, Achhelaus Herod did not rule there.


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The Division of Herod's Kingdom:

Tetrarchy (Judea) under Herod Archelaus,
Territory under Herod Antipas
Territory under Herod Philip II
Salome I (cities of Jabneh, Azotas, Phaesalis)
Roman province of Syria
Autonomous cities(Decapolis

Source

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 May 2013 - 06:48 AM.
Added source


#119    Jor-el

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:12 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 22 May 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

Archelaus Herod has killed all Male Lineal Successors of the Hasmoneans.

Would`nt that have included a lot of their male children being kill at the time to?

Just a moment here, you are confusing things a bit. Archelaus did not do that, his father, Herod the Great did. The link you gave me is quite clear on this. You misread the text.

Josephus is both direct in his descriptions and at times extremely opaque as to the participants in this event. Herod is in Jericho at his death.[2] Just prior to his final trip to Jericho, he was deeply involved in a religious conflagration. Herod had placed a golden eagle over the Temple entrance which was perceived as most blasphemous.[3] The eagle is chopped down with axes. Two teachers and approximately 40 other youths are arrested for this act and immolated. Herod defends his works and offers an attack on his predecessors, the dynastic Hasmoneans.[4] Herod has killed all Male Lineal Successors of the Hasmoneans. It should be noted also that the Pharisees have long attacked the Hasmoneans as well, as having parentage from Greeks while under bondage. This racial slur is repeated by the Pharisees through the rule of Alexander Jannaeus and Queen Salome.[5]

With this explicit background given, Josephus begins an exposition of the days of Archelaus' reign before Passover of 4 BC.

http://en.wikipedia....Herod_Archelaus

While the text itself is written on the page belonging to Herod Archelaus, the paragraph in question is specifically about his father Herod the Great.

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#120    Jor-el

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 22 May 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

In the Bible, Archelaus is mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. According to Matthew 2:13-23, Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents. When Herod the Great died, Joseph was told by an angel in a dream to return to Israel (presumably to Bethlehem). However, upon hearing that Archelaus had succeeded his father as ruler of Judaea he "was afraid to go thither" (Matthew 2:22), and was again notified in a dream to go to Galilee. This is Matthew's explanation of why Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea but grew up in Nazareth.



Joseph, Mary and Jesus fled to Egypt to avoid the Massacre of the Innocents.

All true. but the text also is quite clear that Herod the Great was the one who ordered the killing of the children.

If you are unfamiliar with the story of the Hasmonean Dynasty, you might think that the two are one and the same events, but they are not.

http://en.wikipedia....smonean_dynasty

Herod and the end of the dynasty [edit]

Antigonus (killed shortly after the capture of Jerusalem by Herod) was not, however, the last Hasmonean. The fate of the remaining male members of the family under Herod was not a happy one. Aristobulus III, grandson of Aristobulus II through his elder son Alexander, was briefly made high priest, but was soon executed (36 BCE) due to Herod's jealousy. His sister Mariamne was married to Herod, but fell victim to his notorious jealousy. Her sons by Herod, Aristobulus IV and Alexander, were in their adulthood also executed by their father.

Hyrcanus II had been held by the Parthians since 40 BCE. For four years, until 36 BCE, he lived amid the Babylonian Jews, who paid him every mark of respect. In that year Herod, who feared that Hyrcanus might induce the Parthians to help him regain the throne, invited him to return to Jerusalem. The Babylonian Jews warned him in vain. Herod received him with every mark of respect, assigning him the first place at his table and the presidency of the state council, while awaiting an opportunity to get rid of him. As the last remaining Hasmonean, Hyrcanus was too dangerous a rival for Herod. In the year 30 BCE, charged with plotting with the King of Arabia, Hyrcanus was condemned and executed.

The later Herodian rulers Agrippa I and Agrippa II both had Hasmonean blood, as Agrippa I's father was Aristobulus IV, son of Herod by Mariamne I, but they were not direct male descendants, unless Herod was understood as a Hasmonean as per the following synthesis:
According to Josephus, Herod was also of Maccabean descent:
  • Eleazar Maccabeus called Auran brother of Judas Maccabeus {Josephus Antiquity of the Jews Book XII/Chapter 9/Section 4}
  • Jason son of Eleazar {Ditto: Book XII/Chapter 10/Section 6}
  • Antipater I son of Jason {Ditto: Book XIII/Chapter 5/Section 8}
  • Antipater II Antipas son of Antipater I {Ditto: Book XIV/Chapter 1/Section 3}
  • Herod
In my view there is no way that anyone can link the deaths of the Hasmonean Dynasties male heirs, to the reference of the Massacre of the Innocents.

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