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My, my, - ARMED guard stops school shooter


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#46    questionmark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:35 PM

View Postand then, on 01 February 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

So society hasn't become coarser and more violent since the early 70s?  Are we to attribute all that to violent TV?  And if so, why would people watch something for entertainment that they had not become enamored of for other reasons?

Seeing the US from the outside like me you would have noticed a big change in what the perception of reality is there. In the 80s there were discussions, in the early 90s if it did not happen on TV it did not happen and by the end 90s nobody quoted any books anymore but some TV show. Yes, a lot has changed since I was a kid. Even the perception of what is going on in the world. We have the CSI effect, a perception that society is getting more violent (most accentuated among those who watch hours and hours of crime shows) while in effect violent crime has been decreasing since the 90s. And all that seems to lead to just one end: more people slipping off the rocker (probably paranoia driven) and more people needing to pack iron until they can't walk anymore to feel "safe".

And that religion changes nothing about that is easily observed in the Bible Belt, that is on average just as violent as the more "progressive" areas.

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#47    Rafterman

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:59 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 February 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

And you think that this should be the norm or are you just being cynic?

I think we should take the issue of school security as seriously as we take fire safety.

No one in their right mind would ever say that we don't have enough money for a fire alarms or a sprinkler system.  We also wouldn't have firemen on duty without the proper tools to do their job.

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#48    Rafterman

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:00 PM

View Postjugoso, on 01 February 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

Agreed. Although I feel it necessary to add that the prevalence of school shootings seems to occur predeominantly in the US. At least this one appears to have involved a "beef" between two individuals and wasn´t just a turkey-shoot.

Interesting comments from someone from Mexico.

"You can't have freedom of religion without having freedom from the religious beliefs of other people."

#49    Bama13

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:19 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Seeing the US from the outside like me you would have noticed a big change in what the perception of reality is there. In the 80s there were discussions, in the early 90s if it did not happen on TV it did not happen and by the end 90s nobody quoted any books anymore but some TV show. Yes, a lot has changed since I was a kid. Even the perception of what is going on in the world. We have the CSI effect, a perception that society is getting more violent (most accentuated among those who watch hours and hours of crime shows) while in effect violent crime has been decreasing since the 90s. And all that seems to lead to just one end: more people slipping off the rocker (probably paranoia driven) and more people needing to pack iron until they can't walk anymore to feel "safe".

And that religion changes nothing about that is easily observed in the Bible Belt, that is on average just as violent as the more "progressive" areas.

Seem to remember a lot of Dectective shows and Westerns on TV in the 60s and 70s. Then there was a favorite of mine (which I recently found reruns of on MeTV) "Combat!". Plenty of people getting shot on TV in the 60s and 70s. Not many school shootings back then, at least that I'm aware of.

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#50    green_dude777

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

I'm also going to point out in this thread that I've pointed out before. http://en.wikipedia....school_massacre

Well before the time frame 'and then' is referring to, and well before the scary assault weapons that common people still don't have.


#51    questionmark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostBama13, on 01 February 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Seem to remember a lot of Dectective shows and Westerns on TV in the 60s and 70s. Then there was a favorite of mine (which I recently found reruns of on MeTV) "Combat!". Plenty of people getting shot on TV in the 60s and 70s. Not many school shootings back then, at least that I'm aware of.
There was a difference though, you watched TV for an hour and then the family sat down for dinner, the tv was turned off and the rest of the evening was spend talking about the day. On Sunday TV was maybe watched for 2 hours. And, depending on the family, the most violent thing kids got to see was Bonanza. Today the TV goes on when people stand up and it goes off when they go to bed.

In many families there was not even a TV when the kids were small (we got one when my smallest sister was 10, I was 16 at the time, and not because my parents could not afford one but because they maintained that it hampered the intellectual progress of children by inhibiting the imagination)

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#52    Bama13

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 February 2013 - 07:26 PM, said:

There was a difference though, you watched TV for an hour and then the family sat down for dinner, the tv was turned off and the rest of the evening was spend talking about the day. On Sunday TV was maybe watched for 2 hours. And, depending on the family, the most violent thing kids got to see was Bonanza. Today the TV goes on when people stand up and it goes off when they go to bed.

In many families there was not even a TV when the kids were small (we got one when my smallest sister was 10, I was 16 at the time, and not because my parents could not afford one but because they maintained that it hampered the intellectual progress of children by inhibiting the imagination)

I think perhaps you are generalizing a little too much. Not every family only watched an hour of TV a day. I used to watch several hours of cartoons on Saturday mornings (talk about violence :-* ). Not all parents were as concerned about their kids watching TV as yours. I think average viewing hours went up massively in the 70s (just the way I remember it, not a fact as I haven't researched this) after cable became more prevelant.

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#53    Gromdor

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:39 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 01 February 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

No, I want people to have the means to defend themselves. I live in Phoenix, and some guy just shot a few people in an office building.  Thing is, we're an open carry state, and the reason this guy was able to get away is because that particular building had the 'no guns' sign posted.  Had he been in a lot of other places, you would read a story similar to this http://www.dailymail...hases-door.html

Even if you were to give an elementary school student a gun they wouldn't be able to defend themself against an armed grown attacker.   Someone else has to protect them.  Even my NRA friends here in Iowa don't carry 24/7.  What alarms me about all these incidents is not the gun control aspect, but the fact that everyone is pushing towards armed guards for everything.  Where do they think these armed guards are going to come from and who do you think they will be ultimately working for?  I suppose we could be like Cuidad de Este in Paraguay where every store had a guard with a shotgun standing by the doorway. Or would you prefer more of an Israel style guard system where everyone is in the army and issued an assault weapon?  You yourself pointed out that the shooters were targeting areas that seemed vulnerable and not just schools and theaters.


#54    questionmark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:43 PM

View PostBama13, on 01 February 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

I think perhaps you are generalizing a little too much. Not every family only watched an hour of TV a day. I used to watch several hours of cartoons on Saturday mornings (talk about violence :-* ). Not all parents were as concerned about their kids watching TV as yours. I think average viewing hours went up massively in the 70s (just the way I remember it, not a fact as I haven't researched this) after cable became more prevelant.

Cable came along in the 80s, not the 70s. But you really made me wonder about the statistics of TV watching and guess what? If they exist they don't seem to be readily available. I'll try to dig something out.

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#55    Michelle

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:52 PM

Here ya go...

http://www.tvhistory...ogram Stats.htm


#56    green_dude777

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:56 PM

View PostGromdor, on 01 February 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Even if you were to give an elementary school student a gun they wouldn't be able to defend themself against an armed grown attacker.   Someone else has to protect them.  Even my NRA friends here in Iowa don't carry 24/7.  What alarms me about all these incidents is not the gun control aspect, but the fact that everyone is pushing towards armed guards for everything.  Where do they think these armed guards are going to come from and who do you think they will be ultimately working for?  I suppose we could be like Cuidad de Este in Paraguay where every store had a guard with a shotgun standing by the doorway. Or would you prefer more of an Israel style guard system where everyone is in the army and issued an assault weapon?  You yourself pointed out that the shooters were targeting areas that seemed vulnerable and not just schools and theaters.

My apologies, did not know that was being implied; I am not advocating juveniles to be carrying weapons.  I am advocating that adults without felonies learn to handle and carry firearms.


#57    questionmark

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostMichelle, on 01 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:


Thanks, I found that one but sadly the viewing hour statistics end in '78 (at average ~7) the big boom did not start until then, so 78-2000 is the inetersting part.

Edit: statistics brain has something pretty compelling:

Hours per year the average American youth spends in school    900 hours
Hours per year the average American youth watches television    1,200 hours

and :

Average time spent watching television (U.S.)    5:11 hours
White     5:02
Black     7:12
Hispanic 4:35
Asian     3:14

Now,which of these groups is the most successful?

Edited by questionmark, 01 February 2013 - 08:08 PM.

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#58    Michelle

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:08 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 01 February 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Thanks, I found that one but sadly the viewing hour statistics end in '78 (at average ~7) the big boom did not start until then, so 78-2000 is the inetersting part.

I was mainly looking for the early years, because there have been a bunch of statistics done on the later ones.


#59    AsteroidX

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:24 PM

Im glad this school shooting got stopped. Although it wasnt one of the "turkey shoots" it shows us something about what might works. I heard a comment made and cant remember by who but it resounded with truth to me regarding armed guards in schools.

It basically went. We are in a unique situation regarding these school situations. One that we dont have an answer for yet. Ill support any school or district that is willing to try a solution to end this violence to our most precious assett. Our children. Will  mistakes be made. Certainly. But along the way by trying different ideas we may find a solution and what works to stop this unnecessary violence. In the end we mind find the solution that works so I support any action a school or school district deems necessary at this point in time to ensure the safety of its students.

I liked this because it was solution driven and he was correct when he said we do not yet have the answer to this problem. One which we all agree must end.


#60    Michelle

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:25 PM

Here is a more current one, but we are still missing a few years between '78 and '91.


http://www.worldtvpc...-all-time-high/





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