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Bombs away in Israel & Gaza.. Again...


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#121    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 19 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

And that is what comes to question who the aggressor is.  By taking the land away from the Palestinians in the first place, that set this up to be a constant battle.  And the Paletinians do not have any rights over in Isreal, Isreal wants the land and no Palestinian citizens.

Are we talking about this latest attack which has led to Isreal defending itself or historical greivances?

If the latter, i propose giving Palastine back to the UK as it was up until 1947

Edited by Professor Buzzkill, 19 November 2012 - 07:44 PM.


#122    Yes_Man

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:43 PM

If Egypt manges to pull this of then credit goes to them. Remmeber when the Muslim Brotherhood took power that people said that they were going to destory Pyrimids and ban non muslim people in events and such. Well that has not happened. So maybe the Muslim brotherhood is not the route of all evil.


#123    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:44 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 19 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Indeed. And Israel is by definition the aggressor. They are the illegal occupiers of the Palestinians, drop bombs on them and shoot their civilians, destroy homes and crops, demoralise and terrorise them whenever they see fit - and this has been going on since long before the first rocket attack or even suicide bomb or even the birth of Hamas (it is actually the reason Hamas was born). Not to mention 100 others acts of aggression.

You, my friend, are reversing cause and effect. No illegal occupation = no ability to defend any aggressive actions carried out by the Palestinians.The countries of the World vote every year to end the illegal occupation. This shows that there is a WORLD consensus with the view being that Israel are by definition the aggressors.

Until the people of the middle east accept Isreal, there will be war. I don't see any countries offering to take in the Isreali's if they were to leave. In fact, that is the reason Isreal was set up, because of anti semites who didnt want jews immigrating to their country.


#124    glorybebe

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:50 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 19 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Until the people of the middle east accept Isreal, there will be war. I don't see any countries offering to take in the Isreali's if they were to leave. In fact, that is the reason Isreal was set up, because of anti semites who didnt want jews immigrating to their country.

And why would they accept a country that stole land and is built on lies?  Do you rmember when journalists were finally able to show that Isreal was attcking the Palestinians and not the other way around?  They brought the Palestinian plight to the world's attention.  How about read all the history, not just the biased propoganda that Isreal has spouted out.

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#125    Yes_Man

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

Fromm BBC live feed

Quote

1944:

A 22-year-old Palestinian is shot dead by Israeli troops in the West Bank city of Hebron, local medics and police tell the AFP news agency.



#126    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 19 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Until the people of the middle east accept Isreal, there will be war. I don't see any countries offering to take in the Isreali's if they were to leave. In fact, that is the reason Isreal was set up, because of anti semites who didnt want jews immigrating to their country.

I can see you don't quite understand the situation regarding the occupation. Israelis are not occupying Israel, they are occupying land outwith Israel, outwith their internationally recognised borders. It is only on these parts of land that Israel are required to return, back to israel, from. They invaded these lands in 1967.

Actually Jews were offered two other places as a home after WW2, but they opted to go to what is now Israel, due to religion.


#127    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:11 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 19 November 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

I can see you don't quite understand the situation regarding the occupation. Israelis are not occupying Israel, they are occupying land outwith Israel, outwith their internationally recognised borders. It is only on these parts of land that Israel are required to return, back to israel, from. They invaded these lands in 1967.

Actually Jews were offered two other places as a home after WW2, but they opted to go to what is now Israel, due to religion.

I am well aware of history. The 1967 conflict was to stop Palastinians crossing the border through Syria. I am sure that the UK would invade Calais if terrorists were using it as a base to enter England and the local government wasn't acting to stop it.

In fact, i used to be very pro Palastine until i realised my knowledge was from an agenda based liberal media.

Now i don't really care about the historical reasons why Israel is where it is. If i did care about how countries came to be then i would be much more concerned with the plight of the native americans rather than a culture that is still alive and well and could help their own situation by not attacking their neighbours.


#128    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:29 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 19 November 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

I am well aware of history. The 1967 conflict was to stop Palastinians crossing the border through Syria. I am sure that the UK would invade Calais if terrorists were using it as a base to enter England and the local government wasn't acting to stop it.


1. Crossing into Israel from Syria was only a part of the given reasons. Especially considering the Golan Heights is only one of the three territories they invaded
2. Those you refer to were the Syrian army, not 'terrorists'. And Israel were as guilty as the Syrians in the cross border skirmishes.
3. There are no Palestinians living in the territory you brought up. It is Syria.
4. The reason it seemed clear (and to be honest it still does) that you have little knowledge of this conflict is because you stated, regarding the occupation: 'I don't see any countries offering to take in the Israeli's if they were to leave'. This statement clearly suggests that you thought Israel was the piece of land we were discussing when using the term 'occupation'.


#129    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:30 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 19 November 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Fromm BBC live feed

If things escalate in the West Bank, we could be about to witness the third Intifada.


#130    and then

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 19 November 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

1. Crossing into Israel from Syria was only a part of the given reasons. Especially considering the Golan Heights is only one of the three territories they invaded
2. Those you refer to were the Syrian army, not 'terrorists'. And Israel were as guilty as the Syrians in the cross border skirmishes.
3. There are no Palestinians living in the territory you brought up. It is Syria.
4. The reason it seemed clear (and to be honest it still does) that you have little knowledge of this conflict is because you stated, regarding the occupation: 'I don't see any countries offering to take in the Israeli's if they were to leave'. This statement clearly suggests that you thought Israel was the piece of land we were discussing when using the term 'occupation'.
Actually in addition to what you state the real trigger for the war was Egypt's blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba and it's port for Israel.  They were trying to stop food and more importantly, fuel from reaching Israel causing them to be dependent on much more expensive sea routes.  Ex, I know you are well informed on this topic and I wonder, have you read Michael Oren's book SIX DAYS OF WAR?  I recently finished it and came away understanding that the Arab neighbors COULD have defeated Israel if they had been unified - or even neutral to each other.  They were more afraid of moves against each other than they were their problems with the Israelis.  It's an interesting read.

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#131    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:54 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 19 November 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

1. Crossing into Israel from Syria was only a part of the given reasons. Especially considering the Golan Heights is only one of the three territories they invaded
2. Those you refer to were the Syrian army, not 'terrorists'. And Israel were as guilty as the Syrians in the cross border skirmishes.
3. There are no Palestinians living in the territory you brought up. It is Syria.
4. The reason it seemed clear (and to be honest it still does) that you have little knowledge of this conflict is because you stated, regarding the occupation: 'I don't see any countries offering to take in the Israeli's if they were to leave'. This statement clearly suggests that you thought Israel was the piece of land we were discussing when using the term 'occupation'.

So what is the answer? Give back the land taken in 1967 so that people who want Israel destroyed have a better vantage point to launch attacks from?

I always thought peace would come with everyone accepting what has happended an getting on with their lives rather than living in the past.


#132    Professor T

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 08:56 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 19 November 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

If Egypt manges to pull this of then credit goes to them. Remmeber when the Muslim Brotherhood took power that people said that they were going to destory Pyrimids and ban non muslim people in events and such. Well that has not happened. So maybe the Muslim brotherhood is not the route of all evil.

Yep.

Kudos to Egypt & the Musim Brotherhood if they can stop the conflict and prevent a wider war.. & Kudos for trying while the rest of the world just takes sides and feeds their side weapons and support..

What the MSM says about anything shouldn't be taken as gospel. The propagana war has been going on in that region longer than us, and I dare say that much of what all we believe about history is built of lies..

The actions of all parties should be watched closely, there's where the truth lays..


#133    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

View Postand then, on 19 November 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Actually in addition to what you state the real trigger for the war was Egypt's blockade of the Gulf of Aqaba and it's port for Israel.  They were trying to stop food and more importantly, fuel from reaching Israel causing them to be dependent on much more expensive sea routes.  Ex, I know you are well informed on this topic and I wonder, have you read Michael Oren's book SIX DAYS OF WAR?  I recently finished it and came away understanding that the Arab neighbors COULD have defeated Israel if they had been unified - or even neutral to each other.  They were more afraid of moves against each other than they were their problems with the Israelis.  It's an interesting read.

Indeed, that was also a given reason, but you grossly over estimate just how much they 'depended' on that oil route. They only received 10% of their oil via that route. Hardly what you would call a crushing blockade.
And I brought up only Syria because the Professor brought it up.

I haven't read it, no, but I have read it being destroyed in a Norman Finkelstein book. You MUST read this: http://www.ussliberty.org/orenbook.htm
It is taken straight from the book I refer to (and own).

The main factor behind Israel's win was the surprise attack that took out all three air forces. This, combined with Israeli superiority in intelligence (listening in to phone calls, well placed spies, etc), and lastly their superior training, all combined to devastating effect. But there is no doubt that with proper unity the Arabs would have fared much better in the '67 war and War of Independence. Not sure if they could have beaten Israel though.

If you are looking to read up on Israel's wars, this book is the most definitive and unbiased source you will find: http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


#134    and then

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:16 PM

I think it's way too early to judge the MB.  I only know what they say about themselves and their charter is pretty negative toward ANY non Muslim.  Time will tell.

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#135    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 19 November 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

So what is the answer? Give back the land taken in 1967 so that people who want Israel destroyed have a better vantage point to launch attacks from?

I always thought peace would come with everyone accepting what has happended an getting on with their lives rather than living in the past.

Give them back their land and, with obvious exception (there will for a long time be a fringe on both sides who will want death to the other, after all the years of mutual hatred), they would not have any need nor desire to launch attacks. And if they did so, THEN Israel would be justified attacking them. THEN the whole world's mindset would change and under those circumstances correctly view Palestinians as the aggressors.

You can see from my thread that Hamas were planning on, and obviously hoping for, long term peace. So there is no reason not to believe that if the land was given back then there would be a solid foundation to build peace on.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 19 November 2012 - 09:34 PM.





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