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Descartes Didn't Know When He Was Awake


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Descartes didn't know when he was awake or when he was asleep! He wrote a whole manuscript about three of his dreams. The articles have been assembled in English and published as the book The Dream of Descartes by Gregor Sebba.

Do you think the average person--one who hasn't studied or researched sleep--knows if he is awake or asleep at the time he is awake? And at the time he is asleep?

What do you think allows that person to know that they are or are not awake or asleep, when they are awake? When they are asleep?

Can you accurately determine this yourself? If so how? If not why?

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I guess he must have wrote them twice just to make sure he really wrote them.

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Could it be that Descartes wrote those dreams as an allegory to explain the difference between "scienta" knowledge and "persuasio" doubt. It would be an explanation.

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I don't. But, also, who's to say that we truly exist? What if we are merely a part of a huge simulation, being carried out by beings much higher than ourselves? What if we truly do not have the ability to think independently, but rather, our thoughts and feelings are merely those of the beings that are controlling us?

This is the type of thinking that lands some people in the looney bin! :w00t:

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When I'm dreaming, I usually feel like I'm awake. I don't "remember" being awake, but when I'm awake I can remember dreaming. I know that when I'm "awake" everything is noticably rigid, the laws of physics and time followed without fail, whereas when I'm dreaming that's not the case. That is as close as I can come to differentiating the two.

It seems to me that it is the properties of physics and time, keeping everything in a consistent and logical order, that tells us we are awake or conscious. I've never had a dream (that I can recall) where these were not broken in some way. At the very least, the passage of time is sped up or skips the "slow" parts, such as walking from place to place or waiting for something.

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Many times people have had trouble determining whether or not they are awake or asleep. These two modes of consciousness can invoke peculiar experiences. For indeed in our wake we interact and experience some strange things. Again, indeed we also become susceptible to similar experiences in our dreams. Because of the subjectivity of human perception and interpretation we can always define a clear line between the experiences of our dreams and of our conscious lives. However, also because of this dynamic of the human condition we can also find our minds boggled by the possibility that when we are awake we could indeed by dreaming, and vice versa. This always reminds me of the Evil Demon; a philosophical concept of Descartes similar to Plato's Allegory of the Cave. Both concepts deal with the relativity of reality and how we perceive it - but also the factors included that include the notion that perhaps everything is illusory. The Evil Demon concept deals with Descartes' hypothesis of a demon existing that manifests an illusion throughout reality and other people's minds, creating one illusory field of reality ready to be perceived by the individual. Whereas the Allegory of the Cave deals with the relative circumstance in which these folk find themselves in this cave - only being aware of their form by seeing their shadows along the cave walls, illuminated by the fire. They have never seen the outside world - so the closest thing to their reflections are their shadows - and if they should ever step outside of the cave they would a new world to be interpreted.

I must also remark that too often our sleeplessness presents opportunity; let us look at Franz Kafka, the Czech novelist and writer. Kafka would find himself awake in the middle of the night, ailing from a mind producing thoughts that he could not slow down. Many of us have also experienced similar situations where we cannot drift asleep so easily. Kafka essentially attributes his ability to write to his insomnia; for in the throes of his wakefulness he finds it the perfect time to write. So majority of Kafka's works were results of sleepless nights in which he harnessed the power of his tired mind to conjure concepts of reality. For Kafka in his writing strove to perhaps overtake reality; one such example being his short story The Metamorphosis.

In the aforementioned the titular character transforms into a large insect and deals with feelings of isolation and questions how he can sustain his humanity. And although his body has changed, Gregor - the protagonist, continues to think in a very human fashion. So the tension between the animal mind and human mind begin. Throughout the narrative we see Gregor getting accustomed to his transformed body, and despite the fact that he has lost his human physique, he still imagines his former life and various parts of himself that he considers to make him human. However, as pointed out by Binion and Schubiger - two scholars, the inconsistencies and contradictions in the narrative point out that the transformation of Gregor into a large human like insect is indeed perhaps a delusion. There is one particular scene in which Gregor's manager is outside his door, demanding Gregor to come out. Eventually finding a way to open the door in his insect form, Gregor comes face to face with his manager. So his manager then flees down the stairs in shock and disgust of his abomination. Now this is where it gets tricky. In the duration of the manager's fleeing scene Gregor contemplates the situation and whether or not he will get fired from work; in the process deluding himself as he is transformed into an insect - an example of the absurd universe in which the inhabitants are not surprised by events that we would normally freak out over. Throughout fives pages the manager is continuing down the stairs - almost in a perpetual free fall, whilst Gregor is perceiving time like nothing is out of the ordinary. This is just one concept of Kafka attempting to overtake reality - the instance being a delusion experienced subjectively by Gregor.

So we can find our minds overtaken by illusions, and if illusions are so readily available, we must ask ourselves:

Is any of this real?

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I guess he must have wrote them twice just to make sure he really wrote them.

WOW! You moved right from the theoretical to the practical in a nanosec. impressive!

Actually, believe it or not, this is a practical matter for me, too. Since I have sleep disorders I can't know what is normal in the population. So, here I am lately talking about sleep and suddenly realize what I am saying, what I am doing, the way I see sleep may not be realistic for that population I am not a part of.

Could it be that Descartes wrote those dreams as an allegory to explain the difference between "scienta" knowledge and "persuasio" doubt. It would be an explanation.

I tell you what I think you are probably right. And if so then I have to learn about those discussions and then read the book once again. I was really alarmed that a philosopher of renown could have such a problem. But then again it did bring me to realizing I can not see others as myself.

You know, I'm real sure you are right because before I started to post the original post I read the second appendix from curiosity of what it was about. It was all about Sebba summarizing points that seem to result fron Descartes dissatisfaction with skepticism ultimately stating it lack of worth or good for society because as he states, "of its negative influence on everything."

So, in the reading of that book it is back to the drawing board. But as to the questions of the post, I still need help to get a feel for what my sleep is supposed to be like. The point being, are there people in our population who would answer "yes" and "no" in various combinations to those questions.

Perhaps cutting and pasting the questions in addition to a comment response would make it clearer all around.

For people like me there would be only one set of answers.

I don't. But, also, who's to say that we truly exist? What if we are merely a part of a huge simulation, being carried out by beings much higher than ourselves? What if we truly do not have the ability to think independently, but rather, our thoughts and feelings are merely those of the beings that are controlling us?

This is the type of thinking that lands some people in the looney bin! :w00t:

As to the first paragraph: I really don't see a difference in asking, "Do you...", "Can you...", or "What do you..." in your set of possible reality and my set of assumed reality. In both cases the "you" person has a normal experience he can report on. And a possible other person/people's normal experience.

It is like being on the Earth, it doesn't matter if I am upside down walking on land down under or right side up walking on land in the U.S--"on land" is "on land". [it may be that the effect of gravity might cause you to grow a little tall if you are upside down! Naturally, I am kidding. It is a joke my kids like to say.

As to the second paragraph: I'm so confused... No, really, lol, your entry or mine? I have wanted to post something that would be interesting. This is interesting--to me anyway.

When I'm dreaming, I usually feel like I'm awake. I don't "remember" being awake, but when I'm awake I can remember dreaming. I know that when I'm "awake" everything is noticably rigid, the laws of physics and time followed without fail, whereas when I'm dreaming that's not the case. That is as close as I can come to differentiating the two.

It seems to me that it is the properties of physics and time, keeping everything in a consistent and logical order, that tells us we are awake or conscious. I've never had a dream (that I can recall) where these were not broken in some way. At the very least, the passage of time is sped up or skips the "slow" parts, such as walking from place to place or waiting for something.

As to the first paragraph: Thanks! So, you can tell. You know some properties are different. It might be that such a difference clues you in intuitively. But actually you aren't entirely sure what helps you know. Terrific! I think that is what you are saying.

As to the second paragraph: So, things occurring as they should because of the influence of natures predictability from our experiences when we are awake. Correct?

Many times people have had trouble determining whether or not they are awake or asleep.

...

So we can find our minds overtaken by illusions, and if illusions are so readily available, we must ask ourselves:

Is any of this real?

I will just copy in something I wrote somewhere here as to how I handle it and then give an example that happen the other day that completely took me and my wife by surprise.

As a preface to my next paragraph, I need to state, when I am awake, I always know I am awake. But when I am asleep, I do not know if I am asleep or not.

My narcolepsy manifests itself in the way I sequence my stages of sleep. I pass from being awake to REM dream sleep and do so seamlessly. So, I go from reality to dreaming the reality I was just experiencing, i.e. I am unaware of being asleep because nothing has changed from being awake. In that sleep I am also lucid. So, I have devised a way of knowing I am asleep. It is simple since I am lucid. I check to see if I am awake. If I don't know, then obviously I am asleep.

But I don't know if that method could be used by others because I don't have any experience with normal sleep.

I got to use this for the first time the other day. I was taking one of my long, exhausting Sitz baths at about 104 degrees average for one to two hours. At the end my wife came home from running errands. She came into the room and said, "I filled the car up with gas."

I said, "Good, then I can get out of the car now." All of it was one seamless perfectly spoken sentence. [Well, as good as I can say it.] However, after the word good I fell asleep and was speaking the rest of the sentence in a dream state. Things didn't seem right as I heard myself say that, being lucid. So, I did the awake check and found myself to be dreaming. The result was that I woke myself up. It worked and all in a flash of time.

That never happened before either. And I am not aware of any other occasions of narcoleptic activity (seizures they call it) in a long time. But I do go to bed then think I have been awake all night, when I am actually well rested in the morning. So, I know not-falling-asleep was a dream. The nights I am awake all night, I am exhausted in the morning when I wake.

Aren't I weird!!!

Anyway maybe the trick will help someone else control something they need to in their sleep life.

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WOW! You moved right from the theoretical to the practical in a nanosec. impressive!

Actually, believe it or not, this is a practical matter for me, too. Since I have sleep disorders I can't know what is normal in the population. So, here I am lately talking about sleep and suddenly realize what I am saying, what I am doing, the way I see sleep may not be realistic for that population I am not a part of.

I tell you what I think you are probably right. And if so then I have to learn about those discussions and then read the book once again. I was really alarmed that a philosopher of renown could have such a problem. But then again it did bring me to realizing I can not see others as myself.

You know, I'm real sure you are right because before I started to post the original post I read the second appendix from curiosity of what it was about. It was all about Sebba summarizing points that seem to result fron Descartes dissatisfaction with skepticism ultimately stating it lack of worth or good for society because as he states, "of its negative influence on everything."

So, in the reading of that book it is back to the drawing board. But as to the questions of the post, I still need help to get a feel for what my sleep is supposed to be like. The point being, are there people in our population who would answer "yes" and "no" in various combinations to those questions.

Perhaps cutting and pasting the questions in addition to a comment response would make it clearer all around.

For people like me there would be only one set of answers.

As to the first paragraph: I really don't see a difference in asking, "Do you...", "Can you...", or "What do you..." in your set of possible reality and my set of assumed reality. In both cases the "you" person has a normal experience he can report on. And a possible other person/people's normal experience.

It is like being on the Earth, it doesn't matter if I am upside down walking on land down under or right side up walking on land in the U.S--"on land" is "on land". [it may be that the effect of gravity might cause you to grow a little tall if you are upside down! Naturally, I am kidding. It is a joke my kids like to say.

As to the second paragraph: I'm so confused... No, really, lol, your entry or mine? I have wanted to post something that would be interesting. This is interesting--to me anyway.

As to the first paragraph: Thanks! So, you can tell. You know some properties are different. It might be that such a difference clues you in intuitively. But actually you aren't entirely sure what helps you know. Terrific! I think that is what you are saying.

As to the second paragraph: So, things occurring as they should because of the influence of natures predictability from our experiences when we are awake. Correct?

I will just copy in something I wrote somewhere here as to how I handle it and then give an example that happen the other day that completely took me and my wife by surprise.

As a preface to my next paragraph, I need to state, when I am awake, I always know I am awake. But when I am asleep, I do not know if I am asleep or not.

My narcolepsy manifests itself in the way I sequence my stages of sleep. I pass from being awake to REM dream sleep and do so seamlessly. So, I go from reality to dreaming the reality I was just experiencing, i.e. I am unaware of being asleep because nothing has changed from being awake. In that sleep I am also lucid. So, I have devised a way of knowing I am asleep. It is simple since I am lucid. I check to see if I am awake. If I don't know, then obviously I am asleep.

But I don't know if that method could be used by others because I don't have any experience with normal sleep.

I got to use this for the first time the other day. I was taking one of my long, exhausting Sitz baths at about 104 degrees average for one to two hours. At the end my wife came home from running errands. She came into the room and said, "I filled the car up with gas."

I said, "Good, then I can get out of the car now." All of it was one seamless perfectly spoken sentence. [Well, as good as I can say it.] However, after the word good I fell asleep and was speaking the rest of the sentence in a dream state. Things didn't seem right as I heard myself say that, being lucid. So, I did the awake check and found myself to be dreaming. The result was that I woke myself up. It worked and all in a flash of time.

That never happened before either. And I am not aware of any other occasions of narcoleptic activity (seizures they call it) in a long time. But I do go to bed then think I have been awake all night, when I am actually well rested in the morning. So, I know not-falling-asleep was a dream. The nights I am awake all night, I am exhausted in the morning when I wake.

Aren't I weird!!!

Anyway maybe the trick will help someone else control something they need to in their sleep life.

That is an interesting case!

I have experienced lucid dreaming as well - one particular instance I recognized there were two lamps on my bedside table, when in reality there is only one. These jettisoned me into my dream like state; aware, focused, and unsure. I remember waking up the next morning and too being very tired.

I'm there with you!

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As to the first paragraph: Thanks! So, you can tell. You know some properties are different. It might be that such a difference clues you in intuitively. But actually you aren't entirely sure what helps you know. Terrific! I think that is what you are saying.

As to the second paragraph: So, things occurring as they should because of the influence of natures predictability from our experiences when we are awake. Correct?

Yes, in the second paragraph it's both that things "feel" orderly and my awareness of time that helps me to recognize being awake. I should also note that people commonly can't read in dreams, and I know that when I've remembered having a dream and trying to read, I always just look at what is written and though there's no understandable language before me I immediately know the meaning of what was written. So for me to be sitting here now, looking at a screen and actually reading word to word to word, I know that it only happens when I'm awake.

It's hard to explain how being awake feels different from being asleep. A lot of it is the pauses, the waiting, the awareness of time. Events in my dreams happen immediately and seamlessly, I jump from one thing to the next. There's no walking from place to place, sitting patiently, or waiting for a load screen on a video game. (I don't think I've ever played games in my sleep, surprisingly!) None of that ever happens when I'm dreaming... so knowing that I can just sit and wait is part of how I know I'm awake as well.

As to what you were saying about going seamlessly into REM without the transition, that's really interesting. I have no experience like that as it's quite difficult for me to fall asleep. I usually have to be in my own bed and I have to lay there for a while, getting into almost a meditative state so that my thoughts are quiet enough for me not to pay attention to them anymore and drift. Even then I have insomnia quite a lot, sometimes to the point that I have to get up, go do something and then go back go bed and try again. It was really bad when I was a kid, I'd be up half the night reading because I just couldn't sleep and reading kept me from having the bad anxiety I'd experience if I just lay in bed trying to sleep all those hours.

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Could it be that Descartes wrote those dreams as an allegory to explain the difference between "scienta" knowledge and "persuasio" doubt. It would be an explanation.

I finally found some info on this possibility--seems like a sure thing--and I bookmarked it. I was amazed that Wikipedia didn't have it as a topic, scienta knowledge and persuasio doubt, that is. perhaps you should offer to start such a page.

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Yes, in the second paragraph...

It's hard to explain how being awake feels different from being asleep.

As to what you were saying about going seamlessly into REM without the transition, that's really interesting. I have no experience like that as it's quite difficult for me to fall asleep...

Sorry my reply is running so late. There has been so much happening around me, e.g. I turned the TV on and there is the bank my brother charted on CNN for having just been robbed. Oh, my!

I reckon there must be heaps of little stuff like that informing us collectively that we are asleep. I think it is interesting that you have pondered the question and had a ready answer! Cool!

I am not suggesting that you do so, but I am pretty sure that sleep deprived people would experience the seamless transition into dream sleep.

I told a friend who is a therapist about the series of events related in my second post of this topic. When I finished she only replied with an exasperated look and body language! It is amazing how foreign that experience can be, when you consider most of what it was about is so familiar to my way of life.

I think by that and this post I have a fair enough estimate of what the norm is in the population now.

My next post in philosophy will include some speculation about the very long term results of a few sleep abnormalities in the population and how they may have had profound affects on some daily things in our society.

Thanks for all the info you provided me with. Sleep is just such a cool thing!

Edited by encouraged
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I get so little sleep these days... But I've had conversations with people in my sleep in which I realize I'm asleep. I mean, conversations with real people in the waking world. I guess I have a secret keeping fail-safe, because when I realize I am talking to someone who is awake and I am not, I clam up. Several times I have told people 'I'm not talking to you anymore. I'm asleep.' and I usually only remember my half of the conversation.

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Descartes didn't know when he was awake or when he was asleep! He wrote a whole manuscript about three of his dreams. The articles have been assembled in English and published as the book The Dream of Descartes by Gregor Sebba.

Do you think the average person--one who hasn't studied or researched sleep--knows if he is awake or asleep at the time he is awake? And at the time he is asleep?

What do you think allows that person to know that they are or are not awake or asleep, when they are awake? When they are asleep?

Can you accurately determine this yourself? If so how? If not why?

Decarte also believed that our veins were hollow tubes where "animal spirits" flowed, affording us with sensation.

Also, being of wealthy means, he often slept until noon. If you had that luxury and had nothing to do all day anyway once you got up but dream up unfalsifiable ideas and let your imagination run wild, you'd probably begin to lose track of when you were sleeping and when you were awake too.

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Thanks Rattle and Mike.

I guess sleep can be so interesting and individually unique because it taps into our own unique life experience using a computer so amazing that it is even a transducer to extra-body phenomenon.

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I don't. But, also, who's to say that we truly exist? What if we are merely a part of a huge simulation, being carried out by beings much higher than ourselves? What if we truly do not have the ability to think independently, but rather, our thoughts and feelings are merely those of the beings that are controlling us?

This is the type of thinking that lands some people in the looney bin! :w00t:

Lol. I always find it interesting when ardent atheists not open to a higher being, refer us to maybe being a creation and under control of higher beings instead. Ironically neither positions have empirical proof, yet here you are postulating higher beings, without putting it through your own standards of verification.

Back to the OP Descartes wrote them as an allegory. Basically illustrating that there is no definitive empirical proof that you are sleeping or awake or even exist. These truths are arrived at by other standards of knowledge. Empiricism and verificationism cannot provide a definitive answer to our own existence or state of sleep or awakeness.

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Back to the OP Descartes wrote them as an allegory. Basically illustrating that there is no definitive empirical proof that you are sleeping or awake or even exist. These truths are arrived at by other standards of knowledge. Empiricism and verificationism cannot provide a definitive answer to our own existence or state of sleep or awakeness.

Thanks! I need to read the book again with those facts in mind.

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Descartes also suggested animals were simply living automatons. Regardless, I have had one dream which seemed so real to the point I didn't know if I were dreaming or not. The position of my bedside table I think it was made me realise it was just a dream. I have posted this dream up on the boards before. I had that dream when I was a child and haven't had one feel so real before that or since then.

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Lol. I always find it interesting when ardent atheists not open to a higher being, refer us to maybe being a creation and under control of higher beings instead. Ironically neither positions have empirical proof, yet here you are postulating higher beings, without putting it through your own standards of verification.

Back to the OP Descartes wrote them as an allegory. Basically illustrating that there is no definitive empirical proof that you are sleeping or awake or even exist. These truths are arrived at by other standards of knowledge. Empiricism and verificationism cannot provide a definitive answer to our own existence or state of sleep or awakeness.

Who implied the simulation was being conducted by a higher being?

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Descartes also suggested animals were simply living automatons. Regardless, I have had one dream which seemed so real to the point I didn't know if I were dreaming or not. The position of my bedside table I think it was made me realise it was just a dream. I have posted this dream up on the boards before. I had that dream when I was a child and haven't had one feel so real before that or since then.

When I was 30 I was a smoker, a little more than two packs a day. I had a terribly real dream in which I got lung cancer, and realized all the damage that my smoking was doing to me and my family and the ordeal they would be exposed to if I did get cancer. I woke and quit smoking then and there.

It is amazing the message a dream can deliver! And how real they can be. My only similar experience was when Star Trek, the next generation had Pickard's ship encounter a space buoy that caused him the live the life like one of the inhabitants who went trough the extinction process on their planet. It was a kind of memorial buoy. That was a completely real program!

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When I was 30 I was a smoker, a little more than two packs a day. I had a terribly real dream in which I got lung cancer, and realized all the damage that my smoking was doing to me and my family and the ordeal they would be exposed to if I did get cancer. I woke and quit smoking then and there.

It is amazing the message a dream can deliver! And how real they can be. My only similar experience was when Star Trek, the next generation had Pickard's ship encounter a space buoy that caused him the live the life like one of the inhabitants who went trough the extinction process on their planet. It was a kind of memorial buoy. That was a completely real program!

Dreams can be a godsend at times hahah. Really great to hear a dream changed your life for the better. My dream was quite scary on the other hand, mainly due to the sheer realism of it. If you would like me to explain it once again and the realisation it was a dream I will happily do so.

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Dreams can be a godsend at times hahah. Really great to hear a dream changed your life for the better. My dream was quite scary on the other hand, mainly due to the sheer realism of it. If you would like me to explain it once again and the realisation it was a dream I will happily do so.

I tried searching for it but NOT!

I hate for you to redo it... How about a link... maybe redoing it is easier. I am curious though.

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I tried searching for it but NOT!

I hate for you to redo it... How about a link... maybe redoing it is easier. I am curious though.

I was looking for it, it's there somewhere... I did find another post on it but it is not as detailed so I will elaborate from that one.

I was quite young at the time, maybe still in primary school (elementary school for you Americans) and I woke up (in the dream) to find my window open and the blinds fluttering violently from a strong breeze. Outside I looked to see the sky was filled with ghosts just flying through the air in one direction. Ghosts in all forms, skeletons and such. One of these ghosts however, flew through my window and then circled my bedroom ceiling moaning, I just hid under the covers until it stopped. It was horrifying hiding my head under the covers while this ghost was moaning and flying about my bedroom for what seemed like so long. I woke up to find everything normal. I knew it was a dream because a small chair that sat beside my bed holding the blinds back (to stop the light from coming through and hitting my face in the morning) was not there at all. I noticed that in the dream also but it seemed so real and well, from what I was seeing I was plain stricken with fear.

There was no reason for me to have a dream like that, I hadn't been looking or reading about ghosts or anything that would have provoked such a dream. Nonetheless that is the most realistic dream I've had and the only one I've had that I didn't know at the time I was dreaming.

Edited by Orcseeker
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Could it be that Descartes wrote those dreams as an allegory to explain the difference between "scienta" knowledge and "persuasio" doubt. It would be an explanation.

That makes more sense. Conscious or awakened intellect is aware of the true nature of it's existence, human beings, generally speaking, are not aware of this and thus can be thought to be "living in a dream world" of perception rather than reality.

Perhaps Descarte did not believe he knew whether the evidence of reality he had collected was based on perception or fact.

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I was quite young at the time, maybe still in primary school...

I knew it was a dream because a small chair that sat beside my bed holding the blinds back (to stop the light from coming through and hitting my face in the morning) was not there at all. [The chair was not there in the dream, I take it.] I noticed that in the dream also but it seemed so real...

There was no reason for me to have a dream like that, I hadn't been looking or reading about ghosts or anything that would have provoked such a dream. Nonetheless that is the most realistic dream I've had and the only one I've had that I didn't know at the time I was dreaming.

With dreams like that, it is not difficult to understand why we sometimes form a fear of the dark, and more rarely a fear to go to sleep.

Yes, although we might notice something unusual in our dream, like your missing chair, I suppose it does not mean that we know the significance of that observation. I love the fact--it does not work for me, but that does not stop me from appreciating it--that all a person needs to know to be capable of being lucid in a dream, is the fact, "You can be lucid in a dream." Also the fact that you can, thereby, take control of the dream over and make it into whatever you desire.

That is pretty interesting considering one does so without being aware within the dream that he is dreaming or not! LOL! The interesting world of consciousnesses!

I remember that I was often noting things missing in my dream as well, but there was no conclusions drawn from noting it.

Another dream I had that others may appreciate!

I came home from a Boy Scout campout completely bushed. I sat down on the imitation leather den arm chair, threw my legs over the big padded arms of it, and started watching TV with my brother while he laid on the couch. He hadn't been camping. I was now in the position that it would take a forklift to move me from, should I need to move.

Suddenly my cat being in a freaky mood came running through the living room door, turned the corner to make it in front of the TV, and bounded like a lamb, time and time again to the other door. Hilarious! I mean Hilarious! She even turned her head as if it was on a broom stick to look our way with each bound into the air.

So, in a short while, probably during a TV commercial, I asked my brother, "Did you see what punt did as she ran through the living room?"

"No, I didn't!" So, I explained... My brother said, "I saw her run through the living room but she didn't do that!"

Another time our canary said "Hello!" while I was waiting for breakfast and real sleepy still.

That didn't happen either. LOL

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