4017 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 27 December 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

The timetable of the OLB is based on the timetable published in each issue the Frisian Almanak (1836-1852). s. http://www.wumkes.nl...ndex.php?per=fa .

I assume Dr. No doesn't read Dutch....

This is from the "Friesche Volksalmanak" from 1839:



The first underlined line says: "The year after the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1839"
The second underlined line says: "Since the Flood: 4032"

1839-4032=2193 / no year zero, so it becomes 2194 BC

http://www.unexplain...35#entry4118424


The fourth, ‘Deucalion’s flood’, occurred in the Bronze age, around 2200 BC.

http://books.google....200 BC.&f=false

[NO-ID-EA]

Thanks guys  ,so by these systems in the almanack the year of the flood was:-

In the Greek system( Byzantine ? ) ...............................3315 AM

in the Julian system  ( Roman  or Rumian)....................2520 AM.............would have been nice if they had used the JUUL-ian system

in the Jewish system(Jutische )..................................... 1568 AM..............closest to jewish trad of 1656 AM.. but 88 years difference

have i got that correct , i have a really bad head cold not sure the grey matter is working properly.........but seems to me hidde worked out the AD year from the Jewish time used on what he was copying..............

jewish date from 1839  almanac 5600 - 1839 years ,  - 2193 years =1568

[Knul]

NO-ID-EA, on 28 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Thanks guys  ,so by these systems in the almanack the year of the flood was:-

In the Greek system( Byzantine ? ) ...............................3315 AM

in the Julian system  ( Roman  or Rumian)....................2520 AM.............would have been nice if they had used the JUUL-ian system

in the Jewish system(Jutische )..................................... 1568 AM..............closest to jewish trad of 1656 AM.. but 88 years difference

have i got that correct , i have a really bad head cold not sure the grey matter is working properly.........but seems to me hidde worked out the AD year from the Jewish time used on what he was copying..............

jewish date from 1839  almanac 5600 - 1839 years ,  - 2193 years =1568

It is not yet clear what source the Frisian Almanak has used.

Edited by Knul, 29 December 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[Abramelin]

Today I watched a movie from 1965, "The War Lord". It is about a knight in Normandy fighting of Frisian raiders in the 11th century.

So I wanted to know if that actually happened as portrayed in the movie (starring Charlton Heston), but I found something else...

I have often said that nothing Irish is ever mentioned in the OLB, although Frisians and closely related tribes (Menapii and C(h)auci did settle in Ireland (and Scotland), very long before the middle ages.

Well, the next is not about that early period (Roman times) but later.

I have stumbled once or twice on "Yola" a now extinct dialect in Ireland. But what I didn't realize is where that language may have originated....

OK, so I found this:


In Wexford, a language called Yola was spoken until the 19th century. Yola was
spoken in areas where the Flemish were known to have settled with grants from
Henry II. Linguists have found it unlikely that Yola is related to modern
Flemish. If, however, the language of the Flemish in the 11th and 12th
centuries was Frisian, or a derivative of Frisian, then that might explain
something about the origin of Yola.

Further, the Frisians had been known to dominate the North Sea, to the point
where it had been called the Frisian Sea. I wonder what happened to the
Frisians. I also wonder if some of what we now call Viking raids might have
been Frisian raids, or if some of the Normans were really Frisian rather than
Norse. if the Frisians were more active than they have been given credit for,
that could explain some confusing issues in the history of the English language,
as well. further, if the Frisians lost a homeland to flood and conquest, and
resettled in England, and brought a military tradition of archery with them,
that might explain the prominence of archery in English military history.

http://tech.groups.y...ty/message/2338

http://en.wikipedia....i/Yola_language


What this person posted, that Viking raids may have been Frisian raids instead, is what I have discussed quite often in this thread. It is known the Frisii hooked up with the Chaucii who were raiding the seas during Roman times, and it is also suggested that the Vikings actually learned the 'art' from the Frisians.

But what makes the Yola language interesting is that it might be an other source of knowledge for Old Frisian, and might help us explain certain words in the OLB  (no, I could not find "Lumka-makia", lol).

Here is a glossary :

http://books.google....ong&redir_esc=y

[Abramelin]

Some will remember that the idea that the OLB guy called "Inka" ended up in South America (or the suggestion that he did, think Incas) most probably originated with the chroniclers Adam von Bremen (11th century) and Martinus Hamconius.

The interesting thing is that maybe there is proof they really ended up in NW America, Baffin Island, because of a recent find there.

So I started this thread in another UM forum:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=239995

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 30 December 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Today I watched a movie from 1965, "The War Lord". It is about a knight in Normandy fighting of Frisian raiders in the 11th century.

So I wanted to know if that actually happened as portrayed in the movie (starring Charlton Heston), but I found something else...

I have often said that nothing Irish is ever mentioned in the OLB, although Frisians and closely related tribes (Menapii and C(h)auci did settle in Ireland (and Scotland), very long before the middle ages.

Well, the next is not about that early period (Roman times) but later.

I have stumbled once or twice on "Yola" a now extinct dialect in Ireland. But what I didn't realize is where that language may have originated....

OK, so I found this:


In Wexford, a language called Yola was spoken until the 19th century. Yola was
spoken in areas where the Flemish were known to have settled with grants from
Henry II. Linguists have found it unlikely that Yola is related to modern
Flemish. If, however, the language of the Flemish in the 11th and 12th
centuries was Frisian, or a derivative of Frisian, then that might explain
something about the origin of Yola.

Further, the Frisians had been known to dominate the North Sea, to the point
where it had been called the Frisian Sea. I wonder what happened to the
Frisians. I also wonder if some of what we now call Viking raids might have
been Frisian raids, or if some of the Normans were really Frisian rather than
Norse. if the Frisians were more active than they have been given credit for,
that could explain some confusing issues in the history of the English language,
as well. further, if the Frisians lost a homeland to flood and conquest, and
resettled in England, and brought a military tradition of archery with them,
that might explain the prominence of archery in English military history.

http://tech.groups.y...ty/message/2338

http://en.wikipedia....i/Yola_language


What this person posted, that Viking raids may have been Frisian raids instead, is what I have discussed quite often in this thread. It is known the Frisii hooked up with the Chaucii who were raiding the seas during Roman times, and it is also suggested that the Vikings actually learned the 'art' from the Frisians.

But what makes the Yola language interesting is that it might be an other source of knowledge for Old Frisian, and might help us explain certain words in the OLB  (no, I could not find "Lumka-makia", lol).

Here is a glossary :

http://books.google....ong&redir_esc=y

Yes, I had heard of, maybe even mentioned this language here, I'd seen it on the Anglo-Frisian Wiki page - http://en.wikipedia....isian_languages

Interesting the word Yola actually means 'old'. I was thinking it sounded somewhat like Jul - Yol Jol - so what Jul means might even connect, who knows. Whatever the case, named because it was an 'old' language perhaps. The Jul/Jol/Yola language.

I don't really see the below mentioned characteristic when i read the OLB though.
One striking characteristic of Yola was the fact that stress was shifted to the second syllable of words in many instances: morsaale "morsel", hatcheat "hatchet", dineare "dinner", readeare "reader", weddeen "wedding", etc
http://en.wikipedia....i/Yola_language

I've have a look at the glossary you linked too.

[NO-ID-EA]

Abramelin, on 30 December 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Some will remember that the idea that the OLB guy called "Inka" ended up in South America (or the suggestion that he did, think Incas) most probably originated with the chroniclers Adam von Bremen (11th century) and Martinus Hamconius.

The interesting thing is that maybe there is proof they really ended up in NW America, Baffin Island, because of a recent find there.

So I started this thread in another UM forum:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=239995

Yup saw the new thread ....the part about lief erikson,.........ie.  son of red erik. and friesians........the name friederik may connect the two.. sort of frie/frei/ red and eric all mixed together.

Edited by NO-ID-EA, 03 January 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 02 January 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

I don't really see the below mentioned characteristic when i read the OLB though.
One striking characteristic of Yola was the fact that stress was shifted to the second syllable of words in many instances: morsaale "morsel", hatcheat "hatchet", dineare "dinner", readeare "reader", weddeen "wedding", etc
http://en.wikipedia....i/Yola_language

I've have a look at the glossary you linked too.

We don't really know how the OLB language is pronounced. I am also not suggesting that the OLB language IS the Yola language, only that the Yola language may have preserved words and expressions we cannot find in the Old Frisian dictionaries we all have used for this thread, and that is because no one thought of Yola as a possible old form of Frisian.

[Abramelin]

NO-ID-EA, on 02 January 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

Yup saw the new thread ....the part about lief erikson,.........ie.  son of red erik. and friesians........the name friederik may connect the two.. sort of frie/frei/ red and eric all mixed together.

Frederick is a masculine given name meaning "peaceful ruler." It is the English form of the German name Friedrich. Its meaning is derived from the Germanic word elements frid, or peace, and ric, meaning "ruler" or "power."

http://en.wikipedia....ck_(given_name)

[Abramelin]

The next pdf gives a nice summary of Frisian history and the pre-history of the Netherlands:


The Wadden Sea Region: A Unique Cultural Landscape
by Otto S. Knottnerus, Zuidbroek

For long, permanent settlement was largely
restricted to the edges of the coastal area.
Dozens of sites were located on moraine hillocks
and river dunes, where they were subsequently
buried under marine or riverine sediments or
became overgrown by the mires. In fact, most of
these settlements may be considered as outposts
of the upland funnel-beaker civilization. Appar-
ently, their inhabitants fled the area as soon as
the impact of rising sea levels came to be felt.

Near Delfzijl Neolithic settlers built a megalithic
chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC
the site disappeared under several feet of clay
and peat. Settlement remains are known from
Emden and Winsum (Groningen), but scattered
findings suggest that human activities extended
far into the present Wadden Sea. As much as 77
megalithic graves and 1,000 Bronze Age barrows
are located on Sylt, Föhr and Amrum alone,
whereas the adjoining mudflats and sandbanks
provided dozens of flint daggers and sickles.
Barrows and megalithic graves are also numerous
in the upland districts.

As sea-level rise slowed-down, other tribesmen
began to reclaim the coastal plains. The
oldest known maritime settlements, dating
about 2600 BC, have been found in a former salt
marsh area in West-Friesland. Archaeologists
assume that the beach-ridges may have been
settled even earlier. The earliest findings are
associated with the Vlaardingen civilization
(3500-2500 BC), an amphibious counterpart of
the upland funnel-beaker settlements. But the
overall picture is very incomplete, due to coastal
erosion. Apparently, local people have learned to
build seaworthy boats at an early date. Even the
oldest marshland settlement reveals traces of
haddock, caught in open sea. Wherever possible,
diets were supplemented by large amounts of
shellfish. During the Bronze Age (2100-600 BC)
the island of Helgoland, 100 km off the coast,
apparently developed into a center of copper
production, flint mining and amber trade. The
moraine island of Texel has also been inhabited
since the Bronze Age.

About 1350 BC Bronze Age farmers settled
down at a former salt marsh estuary near
Hoogkarspel (Noord-Holland). As far as we
known, they were the first marshland dwellers
who held out against rising water levels by
building their farmsteads on raised platforms.

Another Bronze Age settlement has been found
at the Weser River banks near Rodenkirchen. In
either case, settlements were abandoned before
the beginning of the Iron Age.

http://www.waddensea...eport/chap2.pdf



2.6.3 Early Medieval Time and Viking Age
(400-1050 AD)

(...)
Christianized merchants from the Frisian districts
played an important part as middlemen
between the Frankish kingdom and the semitribal
societies of Northern Europe. Their kinsmen
established outposts far beyond the borders
of the Empire. Trade concentrated on exchanging
foreign luxury products, which were vital for the
gift economy of local warlords and their retainers.
The port towns were newly created under the protection
of local magnates and royal representatives.

Houses were situated along riverbanks
and tidal creeks, where the inhabitants
could easily moor their cargo ships and pull them
ashore. These flat-bottomed sailing ships are
considered the forerunners of the Hanseatic cog
ship (kogge), of which an example from 1380 is
exhibited in the Bremerhaven shipping museum.

The most famous of the maritime emporia
were the towns of Dorestadt (Wijk bij Duurstede
near Utrecht) and Hedeby/Haithabu (Schleswig).
The former was the gate to the German
Rhineland, the latter controlled the shipping
route from the Baltic along the Eider and Treene
Rivers towards the North Sea. The towns of Ribe
and neighboring Dankirke, Hamburg, Bardovick
(Landkreis Lüneburg), Stade, Brüggehusen (Bremerhaven-
Lehe), Bremen, Jever, Emden, Stavoren
and Medemblik had a similar history. Moreover,
foreign outposts were established along Europe’s
main waterways from Scandinavia to Britain
(York) and down to the Rhine and Loire valleys.

This was not only the case in the towns, but
sometimes also in the surrounding countryside.
In most cases, Frisian presence is documented by
the pottery meagered with grinded musselshells.
Frisian grave-goods have been discovered
in Darum near Ribe, along the banks of the Elbe
river and in Dunum (Landkreis Wittmund). The
Frisian guild in Sigtuna (Sweden) existed up to
the 11th century. Cities like Cologne, Mainz and
Strasbourg had their own Frisian quarters,
Frisian small coins (sceattas) were widespread,
whereas the North Sea was sometimes called
‘Mare fresicum’.

Consequently, international commerce brought
the Frisians homelands in contact with foreign
countries all over Europe. In the Wadden Sea
Region a new type of village came into existence:
oblong mercantile dwelling mounds, situated
along tidal creeks, populated by merchants,
skippers and artisans, and protected by a local
lord. In many cases these villages developed into
centers of political and ecclesiastical power, as
was the case with Emden, Farmsum,
Appingedam, Winsum, Dokkum, Leeuwarden,
Bolsward, Oldeboorn, Stavoren and Medemblik.

(...)

On the whole, foreign visitors were surprised
by the prosperity of the coastal inhabitants.
Archaeological findings show a rich and diverse
material culture, witnessing extensive commercial
contacts and a considerable degree of specialization.

Next to stockbreeding, sheep breeding
and some arable farming, people were
engaged the production of cloth, salt and hides.
Spinning, dying and weaving were female work.
Weaving patters were sometimes quite delicate.
Apparently, the woad-died cloths served as currency.

Quality and quantity was dropping in the
Late Middle Ages, probably due to competition
from Flanders. Nordfriesland was a last resort. By
the middle of the 16th century, however, local
production had come to a halt.

http://www.waddensea...eport/chap2.pdf



Add to that what I posted long ago about the Frisians during the Crusades, and you'll get an idea why someone wanted to give the Frisians their own 'ancient history' by transplanting medieval events to a time thousands of years earlier.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 January 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[NO-ID-EA]

Just a possibility .... remembered reading in OLB ,  that all the black slaves that were rowers on the ships , were kept on an island separate from the fris whilst they were at home.... and that they were left to fend for themselves after one big flood , got off the island and took a lot of the frisian women for wives.

bit of a longshot ..........but in the sudan area were the Ethiopians , then called Kush and Punt ,  over various periods these kushites were in charge of Egypt when they were called the Ta-Seti , and at other times the Egyptians defeated them and sold them as slaves, one of the places the Egyptians used to raid for slaves was Dangola ,

Just wondered whether these black rowers that escaped might be slaves they had bought from Dan-Gola , and they were the Gola you mentioned previously

[Abramelin]

Can you give us a bit more detail, Dr.No?

Never heard of "Dangola" or "Dan-Gola"

It doesn't appear to me the Gola in the OLB were slaves. Their name is a Hebrew word meaning "exile", and they came from Sidon with the Phoenicians.

[Van Gorp]

Seems it relates to Dongola (or Old-Dongola).

I can imagine that there is a relation in the root Gol (Kol, Col) as you both mentionned: exiles or slaves or COLonists.
Could be voluntarely or more in a forced way, people who send others or are send themselves to cultivate the land.

In history you can find many relations with colonies and (land)labourers (input/output for slave trade?) to colonise (cultivate) land.
Gola -> Colonists ?

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 11 January 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

Seems it relates to Dongola (or Old-Dongola).

I can imagine that there is a relation in the root Gol (Kol, Col) as you both mentionned: exiles or slaves or COLonists.
Could be voluntarely or more in a forced way, people who send others or are send themselves to cultivate the land.

In history you can find many relations with colonies and (land)labourers (input/output for slave trade?) to colonise (cultivate) land.
Gola -> Colonists ?

Gola means 'exiles', people who were cast out, expelled. Not slaves. Refugees.

Colonists are people who set out to settle somewhere else, and most always of their own volition

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 January 2013 - 11:13 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 11 January 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Gola means 'exiles', people who were cast out, expelled. Not slaves. Refugees.

Colonists are people who set out to settle somewhere else, and most always of their own volition

.

Other example:

The Gullah are the descendants of slaves who live in the Lowcountry region of South Carolina and Georgia, which includes both the coastal plain and the Sea Islands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullah

Many colonisation went side by side with slavery or forced exile.