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Atlantis


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#1876    docyabut2

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:25 PM

Frist of all I have to agree why would Plato make up a myth but used real people to qoute from,  all the characters Plato qouted from were real people, all though Solon in making the tale into a poetic greek tale did copy Homer.


#1877    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:30 PM

View PostProclus, on 18 January 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

Nice how ignorant you are on my arguments.
By ignorance the strongest evidence can be gained :-)

cormac still has not arrived at the thought that a historical kernel not necessarily is "only" an inspiration, but it could be in core the thing itself! Especially, if it is not a combination of different inspirations, but only one main "inspiration".

cormac:
> A.)  There's no evidence of any such story having ever existed in Ancient Egypt so it doesn't matter what was claimed.

How often do you want to repeat this again? The Sea Peoples are close enough to serve as a starting point. Your repeated statements are close to a lie. A noble lie? *smile* Indeed, some Atlantis skeptics have a political agenda and deny Atlantis very strictly because of political reasons. They believe Plato to be a friend of tyranny and think the story is put into the mouth of Critias the tyrant. But it is another Critias. But thank you cormac, that you mentioned the name-thing. A progress!

You yourself mentioned now the witness Crantor who allegedly saw the story on Pillars. There is an independent witness! You may doubt him, but there it is! Whoever says: "There is no witness except Plato" is expressing a lie - Crantor is to be mentioned at least, even if you do not trust him. By the way: Pillars with the sea peoples story exist.

I said: Forget the noble lie.
You said: Hey, maybe it is a noble lie?

Look: Plato invented the concept. But he invented it for the non-philosophers. Plato *never* applies the concept to the readers of his dialogues. He mentions only one noble lie, and this is explicitly marked as such. Furthermore it would make no sense to see the Atlantis story as a noble lie. It does not serve the purpose the noble lie is thought for. And then: Why does Plato explicitly say that he added something for primeval Athens? Are noble lies revealed as partly non-original stories?! *smile*

Ouuh, how simple this is: Plato made it all up, it is a lie, yes, a lie, a noble lie, plane into the face of his readers, and the readers, his philosopher friends, are so dumb as ordinary people, that they did not realize this, etc. etc. This is exactly how Plato was interpreted in the 19th century, the time of romanticism. The time when all statements of Plato's Socrates were considered to be pure irony. This changed, heavily, too. Yes, you are romantics, my dear so-called skeptics! You dream of a phantasy Atlantis, romantically, but in fact it's a boring small-sized reality, out there, somewhere, a huge heap of rubble. Very unromantic.

WhiteGandalf could be wiser than you!

No, the starting point are Plato's accounts. Without them we have no story of Atlantis. If Plato had just generalized his claim you might have an argument. But he didn't. He gave a specific location and size for same, a specific timeframe, specific military and naval capabilities and the claim of dominating most of the Mediterranean from the western end to Italy in the north and to the borders of Egypt in the south. None of which was ever true of any culture up to his time.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1878    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:31 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 18 January 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Frist of all I have to agree why would Plato make up a myth but used real people to qoute from,  all the characters Plato qouted from were real people, all though Solon in making the tale into a poetic greek tale did copy Homer.

To give it an element of legitimacy.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1879    whitegandalf

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 18 January 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

The Shardana helmets fit better:


...

And all those are from the immediate vicinity of Egypt.

I agree they fit better, but that still leaves two options.

Either two sepearate different seacultures (Shardana/Sicily/west med. and the North sea culture.) develop the same type of horned helmets at the same time, while they probably had tradecontacts and possible wars with each other,. Which would be totally confusing in large battles. And attacked Egypt and other Kingdoms alone without any support.

Or these two neighbouring cultures was allies or part of the same seaculture and trading network. And attacked together. If the north sea culture was to expand in certain periods and sail through the pillars and into the mediterian, Sicily, would be one the first island to be invaded and ruled over, and used as a oupost for further conquest, as the vikings did later in history..

Edited by whitegandalf, 18 January 2013 - 11:15 PM.


#1880    docyabut2

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:49 PM

It seems likely that Solon's Egyptian sojourn acquainted him with tales of an ancient land named Keftiu, an island nation named for holding one of the four pillars that supported the Egyptian sky. According to the Egypt legend, Keftiu was an advanced civilization, and was the gateway to and ruler of all of the lands to the far west of Egypt (Greece, Libya, and beyond). Keftiu traded in ivory, copper, and cloth. Keftiu supported hosts of ships and controlled commerce far beyond the Egyptians domain. Keftiu.was Egyptian name for Thera.



Solon only wote down the meaning of the translated names.

Palto

In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Kleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water,

To me Kletio and Keftiu are the same.


#1881    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 18 January 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

I agree they fit better, but that still leaves two options.

Either two sepearate different seacultures (Shardana/Sicily/west med and the north sea culture.) develop the same type of horned helmets at the same time, while they probably had tradecontacts and possible wars with each other,. Which would be totally confusing in large battles.

Or these two neighbouring cultures was allies or part of the same seaculture and trading network. If the north sea culture was to expand in certain periods and sail through the pillars, Sicily would be one the first island to be invaded and ruled over, and used as a oupost for further conquest, as the vikings did later in history..

You're leaving out the most likely and more relevant option IMO. That being that your conflating two very different cultures from two completely different points in time in order to make your "connection". The Shardana existed in the 2nd millenium BC while the Vikings existed in the 1st millenium AD. These are not remotely "close" periods in time.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1882    whitegandalf

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:21 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 January 2013 - 11:12 PM, said:

You're leaving out the most likely and more relevant option IMO. That being that your conflating two very different cultures from two completely different points in time in order to make your "connection". The Shardana existed in the 2nd millenium BC while the Vikings existed in the 1st millenium AD. These are not remotely "close" periods in time.

cormac

The viking/north sea culture existed flourished during bronzeage too. In fact more bronzeage swords has been found in scandinavia, than whole the mediatarian together. They were indeed a powerfull force at the time, and trading between the two "worlds" are well documented.

The vikings are the 100% sure evidence of that a north sea culture could invade sicily and raid the kingdoms of the mediterian. It is not too long away, and the climate is not too cold for an advanced powerfull sea culture to rise.

Edited by whitegandalf, 18 January 2013 - 11:30 PM.


#1883    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 18 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

The viking/north sea culture existed during bronzeage too. In fact more bronzeage sword has been found in scandinavia, than whole the mediatarian together. They were indeed a powerfull force at the time, and trading between the two "worlds" are well documented.

North Sea cultures did indeed exist in the Bronze Age. Associating them, specifically, with the much later Vikings is rather misleading to say the least though. The connection you are attempting to make is about as incorrect as if one claimed that all Americans are British just because some have ancestors that came from England. Neither comparison is valid.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1884    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 18 January 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

It seems likely that Solon's Egyptian sojourn acquainted him with tales of an ancient land named Keftiu, an island nation named for holding one of the four pillars that supported the Egyptian sky. According to the Egypt legend, Keftiu was an advanced civilization, and was the gateway to and ruler of all of the lands to the far west of Egypt (Greece, Libya, and beyond). Keftiu traded in ivory, copper, and cloth. Keftiu supported hosts of ships and controlled commerce far beyond the Egyptians domain. Keftiu was Egyptian name for Thera.

Solon only wote down the meaning of the translated names.

Palto

In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Kleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water,

To me Kletio and Keftiu are the same.

Not in any extant Egyptian text I'm aware of. Your source for that would be what?

So you think that a person and an island are the same thing? Oookay.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1885    whitegandalf

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 11:47 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 January 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

North Sea cultures did indeed exist in the Bronze Age. Associating them, specifically, with the much later Vikings is rather misleading to say the least though. The connection you are attempting to make is about as incorrect as if one claimed that all Americans are British just because some have ancestors that came from England. Neither comparison is valid.

cormac

I am not saying that vikings and bronzeage north sea culture was exactly the same. There was new elements and technologies during the later vikingage. But a comparison is possible. If the vikings had thousands of ships, it at least opens the possibility that the viking ancestors also could have had a large number of ships and trading/plunder-routes to the meditarian.

If we do the oposite, fast forward 1000years, do the north sea culture still have many ships and are big in world trade by sea? The anwer is yes. Norway had for 50 years ago the worlds second largest trading fleet. Number one was its neighbour britain. This is not pure luck, it is because of the resources in the north sea and excellent boatbuilding skills that comes with it.

Edited by whitegandalf, 18 January 2013 - 11:56 PM.


#1886    whitegandalf

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:02 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 January 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Not in any extant Egyptian text I'm aware of. Your source for that would be what?

So you think that a person and an island are the same thing? Oookay.

cormac

This is a very normal and likely interpitation of much of the oldest texts. Poseidon and all the other Gods were not single persons, but a leader with his tribe, together. When the Gods fight amongst eachother, it is in reality two armies that are doing all the fighting, not two superhumans..


When the gods have children, it is new cities/villages. And a name that suits that tribe and the location they live in.

Edited by whitegandalf, 19 January 2013 - 12:06 AM.


#1887    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:03 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 18 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

I am not saying that vikings and bronzeage north sea culture was exactly the same. There was new elements and technologies during the later vikingage. But a comparison is possible. If the vikings had thousands of ships, it at least opens the possibility that the viking ancestors also could have had a large number of ships and trading/plunder-routes to the meditarian.

If we do the oposite, fast forward 1000years, do the north sea culture still have many ships and are big in world trade by sea? The anwer is yes. Norway had for 50 years ago the worlds second largest trading fleet. Number one was its neighbour britain. This is not pure luck, it is because of the resources in the north sea and excellent boatbuilding skills that comes with it.

Actually, you pretty well did by starting with this:

Quote

The viking/north sea culture existed during bronzeage too.

And a comparison between the two has no other relevancy than being just that, "a comparison".

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1888    whitegandalf

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:12 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 January 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

And a comparison between the two has no other relevancy than being just that, "a comparison".

cormac

Thats your opinion..

Edited by whitegandalf, 19 January 2013 - 12:15 AM.


#1889    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:14 AM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 19 January 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

This is a very normal and likely interpitation of much of the oldest texts. Poseidon and all the other Gods were not single persons, but a leader with his tribe, together. When the Gods fight amongst eachother, it is in reality two armies that are doing all the fighting, not two superhumans..


When the gods have children, it is new cities/villages. And a name that suits that tribe and the location they live in.

Actually it's not. Particularly when Poseidon is attested in Mycenaean Linear B texts over 800 years prior to Plato where he's already a deity.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#1890    whitegandalf

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:30 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 January 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Actually it's not. Particularly when Poseidon is attested in Mycenaean Linear B texts over 800 years prior to Plato where he's already a deity.

cormac

And...

If you belive in superhumans and "real" gods and santa claus, it up to you. I dont care, most of us try to find a down to earth explaination.

Edited by whitegandalf, 19 January 2013 - 12:31 AM.





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