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Why would anyone want religion to be true?

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#31    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:27 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 19 September 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

That's interesting, Frank, because I get a very different impression--that "Skepticism 1" has already reached his or her conclusions for said essay-in-the-making-- "So the main point of my essay is this. . ."  and could in fact write it more easily from final page back backwards to the first. (See especially the last few sentences of the OP.)

@Paranoid Android: That is a fine story and well told. Your 'thought balloon' was telling. This new relationship doesn't seem to bode well for your struggling friend.

My conclusion is that religious people have false conclusions. I am not the one who has concluded that there is a god and that i understand such an immense powers feelings. People think that atheism is so narrow minded which is honestly just completely false. Its not 'the christian worldview' or 'the atheist worldview' that you choose between when deciding on your faith; its: 'the christian worldview' or 'every other worldview'. Seems starkly clear who the narrow minded ones are.


#32    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:32 PM

I will just throw in another point of my essay. Lets just take god being real as fact. aside from the further implications i expressed, much to everyone' dismay, earlier, how do you take the huge step from god being real to the bible being true? And the even huger step of the bible being true and the way Christians are today?

The points i am putting forward is one part of the essay. The next part is the best possible argument for religion as i can muster, hence this forum post, and to reach a conclusion. Yes i am an atheist but i am more dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge than atheism. So will honestly take your arguments seriously and even try to strengthen them in my essay.


#33    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:37 PM

View PostJ. K., on 19 September 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

According to evolution, yes.  However, the questions you asked needed clarification from the Bible, the document about God that you yourself brought up.  Your questions revealed a lack of knowledge about the context.  That would be similar to me asking questions about evolution without accepting Darwin as a source of information.

What your doing is not excepting knowledge from outside the bible, as a source of information, no? i said 99% of species that have existed, don't anymore. you said that it was because of humans irresponsibility. I said that most of them died before humans evolved. I fail to see the fault in my answer...


#34    willowdreams

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:37 PM

I would NOT want religion to be true. I get p***y when I hear Christians say 'why do you harp on the OT!?'

And I want to holler that we harp on it because it is YOUR bible YOUR word of god, the BASIC and BEGINNING and FOUNDATION of YOUR faith, you can have a wonderful beautiful home that looks tall and proud and strong, have the best walls, the best roof, the best everything, but if your foundation is such a foundation to where you cry 'ignore the foundation, pay attention to the good stuff done towards the end', then your house will crumble into the shifting sands.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning
basically you cannot turn the cheek on one half the bible and support the other half. and expect to be taken seriously

I find the bible a horrible horrible book to want to live by, oh it has its good stuff, uplifting stuff, but basically, the bible shows god in no better light then human

we humans can band together and help one another, help heal, feed, cloth, support.. and we have done so, you have people who will risk their lives for a lowly newborn kitten
and we have monsters among our midst who kill their own people to get what they want... god does that, he doesnt like something, so burn two cities he dispises, flood a whole word and kill even the newborn babies and the harmless animals, regardless of species, die die die.
Basically, the bible is the same as man, i do not want man in my head, why would i want a being who doesnt even show his face in my head?
ack.. i am late, running five min late for work.. ignore typos, et et et er  

Edited by willowdreams, 19 September 2013 - 05:38 PM.

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#35    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:37 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 September 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

No god didn't put through it.  The mn who kidnapped them did.
If you can credit him for something he didn't do then it's only fair that I can blame him.


#36    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:39 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

What your doing is not excepting knowledge from outside the bible, as a source of information, no? i said 99% of species that have existed, don't anymore. you said that it was because of humans irresponsibility. I said that most of them died before humans evolved. I fail to see the fault in my answer...

Just because i mentioned the bible doesn't mean any response has to be solely in its context.


#37    trudoug

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:46 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

Before this post is accused of an unnecessary attack on religion, i would like to state that i am currently writing an extended essay on this very topic.

Before starting i would like to make a distinction between deism and theism. Deism is the belief in a creator of the universe, life and everything. No more. Theism is the belief in a specific creator, as described in religions (arguably creator(s) but my focus is on monotheistic religion). Now for any person to say they are of a certain religion (lets use Christianity as an example) there is only one, rather huge, step from deism. The bible.

The only thing that separates a deist from a Christian is the bible. So why would anyone wish the bible to be true? Why would anyone wish a totalitarian leader to have access to your inner most thoughts, to never leave you alone and to constantly watch over you. Why would you want to worship a being that created millions and millions of different species of animals, only to have 99% of them go extinct. Some creator.

So the main point of my essay is this: If a religion were true, it has two furthers implications. Either, the god of that specific religion is an inept creator, most of his creations dying out, who has created a species of higher primate (us) that are morally superior or that the god of that specific religion is evil, callous and indifferent to the well being of us, let alone any other animal.

There is an essay more i could add to this argument but i'm keeping it relatively short to encourage back and fourth debate.

Thoughts?



#38    trudoug

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:47 PM

some creator?  have you no respect for being alive? But to add another view....
This may be off topic, but I insist that spirituality is replaced by homosexuality.  when one is a homosexual, their highest point of self awareness is their own body, where the heterosexual's preference is in the spirit, not the body!


#39    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:58 PM

View Posttrudoug, on 19 September 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

some creator?  have you no respect for being alive? But to add another view....
This may be off topic, but I insist that spirituality is replaced by homosexuality.  when one is a homosexual, their highest point of self awareness is their own body, where the heterosexual's preference is in the spirit, not the body!

I have no respect for this kind of creator no. Let me repeat however as you may not have got my point. Deism is still wide open in regards to the creation of the universe, even for atheists. But that is not the kind of creator i was disrespecting, it was in fact the monotheistic deities. I don't quite understand your point about homosexuality, glad to see you approve though!


#40    J. K.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:06 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

Just because i mentioned the bible doesn't mean any response has to be solely in its context.

If you want discussion about God, you have to accept that the Bible is a source of information about Him, regardless of its veracity.  The problem with your initial statement is that there are more implications than what you mentioned.  You said that God is either inept or evil.  From the Christian viewpoint, there are other options.  You asked why we want religion to be true.  We see God differently than you do; that's why.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#41    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostJ. K., on 19 September 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

If you want discussion about God, you have to accept that the Bible is a source of information about Him, regardless of its veracity.  The problem with your initial statement is that there are more implications than what you mentioned.  You said that God is either inept or evil.  From the Christian viewpoint, there are other options.  You asked why we want religion to be true.  We see God differently than you do; that's why.

That's a brilliant answer, sorry i really did not get what you just said from what you said previously. Maybe that was my fault.

Okay well it is my personal view that the way you see god, is not really represented by the bible, or if it is, in some loose 'the moral behind the story way'. But you cant forget about how Christians acted when they did take what it said to be true ('literally'). It just feels as though the Christians of our time take the approach they do because it is the best way of following the bible, while attaining modern morals.

And you absolutely do have to except the bible as a source of information about the christian god, my point was actually that the bible was the only way in which you can learn about god (other than interventions, making prayers come true, etc) So the whole christian faith can be boiled down to is the bible true or not. I suppose my question is, why do you think the bible is true?

Edited by skepticism1, 19 September 2013 - 07:25 PM.


#42    DecoNoir

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:28 PM

Oh gee, another back handed b**** slap at Abrahamic religion on the forum, yay! Because 15 of these a week aren't engaging enough already! Woooo!

I reject your reality, and substitute my own! Mostly because yours is boring as hell.

#43    J. K.

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Okay well it is my personal view that the way you see god, is not really represented by the bible, or if it is, in some loose 'the moral behind the story way'. But you cant forget about how Christians acted when they did take what it said to be true ('literally'). It just feels as though the Christians of our time take the approach they do because it is the best way of following the bible, while attaining modern morals.

You might also keep in mind that there are more variations in beliefs, past and present, than McDonalds has fries.  The term "Christian" encompasses many belief systems that are not all compatible.

Quote

And you absolutely do have to except the bible as a source of information about the christian god, my point was actually that the bible was the only way in which you can learn about god (other than interventions, making prayers come true, etc) So the whole christian faith can be boiled down to is the bible true or not. I suppose my question is, why do you think the bible is true?

I think it is true because its words have been proven in my life through experiences with God.  I do realize that those experiences are very subjective.

One's reality is another's nightmare.

#44    GreenmansGod

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 08:26 PM

As a Pantheist Druid, I have a different view of God.  God is not a separate entity from the Universe, God is the Universe. Creation is really birth, IMO.  Really upsets my Christian friends when I tell them I don't worship a god I am a God, as I am a part of God (Universe) in the way my cells are a part of me.

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#45    danielost

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 09:15 PM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:



You must be joking, god was there for them? but only after their years and years of torture right? What about the 9 million children a year who die before there 5. Where is god for them.

God was with both groups of women.  He was helping them to get through it.  As for the nine million kids, god is there with open arms welcoming them back to heaven.

God has a prime directive.  That is none interferance in a persons choices, good or bad.  Those who do bad do not get to live with him.  Those who do good do get to live with him.  The pain of death is over in the flicker of an eye.  The pain of living is not.  Those who don't deserve their pain in the end will have it removed.  They may not even remember it.  

The bible has gone through many languages.  The bible wording is not the same as it was first written or first told around a cook fire or table.  But, the message is the same.  God is there for us.  Has been, is now and always will be. If we but accept him.


I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.





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