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Trying to think realistically


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#1    nopeda

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

God might not exist. That covers that. God might exist. That opens infinite possibilities. For years I've been trying to think realistically about how God could exist, and here is a list of basic ideas in an attempt to do so:

1. If God exists he almost certainly would have to be an alien.

2. If there is a creator associated with this planet, all
who refer to him refer to the same being regardless of what
they call him or what they think about him.

3. Nothing that happens is supernatural, so anything gods do
would be natural for them.

4. If God exists and wants things to be as they are, he
could not provide proof of his existence because doing
so would change things too much.

5. Since the terms omnipotent and omniscient appear to
make themselves impossible, it's unrealistic to try assigning
those particular characteristics to God if he exists.

6. Since disbelief is a form of belief, the degree of faith a
person has that God does not exist is what determines how
strong an atheist he or she is, or is not.

7. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find
it impossible to comprehend the ability of considering the possibility
that God does not exist and also the possibility that he does.

8. People who have put their faith in a belief often/usually find
it impossible to comprehend much less appreciate basic number 2.

9. People who claim to be strong atheists often/usually asburdly
try to deny their own faith that God does not exist...faith which is
a necessary part of being a strong atheist.

10. Whether God exists or not it seems apparent that life must have
originated from lifelessness to begin with, and may do it fairly often.

11. We should not allow what appear to be conflicting or unlikely
beliefs encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate
and interfere with our own attempts to think about this topic
realistically.

12. We should not allow childlike and unrealistic attempts at comparing
the concept of gods with those of childlike ideas like the tooth fairy,
the Easter Bunny, invisible pink unicorns, spaghetti monsters etc
encouraged by other people--however absurd--to contaminate and interfere
with our own attempts to think about this topic realistically.

13. If gods exist they would necessarily have to be technologically
advanced far beyond we humans on Earth, to the point that they became
gods.

14. If God exists he almost certainly would not be restricted to any
particular body, form, or gender. (disclaimer: I refer to God as "he" out
of convenience and because that's how we are encouraged to refer to "him"
in most if not all canonical texts.)

15. If God exists it seems most likely that he has as much influence
over the content of canonical texts as he wants to have.

16. If God exists, it seems quite clear he makes use of the evolutionary
method of creation.

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.


#2    Coffey

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:01 PM

You have missed one huge fact which kinda makes all your points obsolete. If God was real, then he would be everything and everyone and you're mind would not be able to comprehend what he actually is.

All your points are based on what you know and what Science knows at this very moment and when discussing "god" that is a huge error. As we don't know everything and we certainly cannot be sure that all our "science" is correct until we do know everything.


( I don't believe in God by the way)

Edited by Coffey, 18 December 2012 - 05:01 PM.

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#3    ouija ouija

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

@nopeda: all good stuff except for #17: why 'most likely'? Can you expand on this, please?

Life is all too much ............................................. and not enough.

It is only when you form your question precisely and accurately that you receive the true answer.

#4    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

Nice. Good guidelines. I have a few problems here and there, but I agree a whole lot.

#17 "physical is a label. Ultimate reality may bypass anything we would label as such. "Natural" might be a Better term in that context.

Also aliens and technology.... While I don't disagree that this is a possibility, we must consider the possibility that god can be a much larger organism in which we are apart of. Us being a nuron, a cell, or another part of the internal workings of a much more encompassing being. Potentially even a mental construct or virtual program.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#5    Orcseeker

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:57 PM

1. Under the argument that God is everything and everywhere, God would not be alien as God is universally located.

Interesting point on number 17. I'm with ouija on this one.


#6    GreenmansGod

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

If god is everything and everywhere, then yes god would be an alien.  Also a dog, cat, bird, planet, star and blackwhole.  Got think big... and small.  As above, so below.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#7    White Crane Feather

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 18 December 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

If god is everything and everywhere, then yes god would be an alien.  Also a dog, cat, bird, planet, star and blackwhole.  Got think big... and small.  As above, so below.
Right! But Alian? Really?  What about multileveled?

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#8    nopeda

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 December 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

Nice. Good guidelines. I have a few problems here and there, but I agree a whole lot.
#17 "physical is a label. Ultimate reality may bypass anything we would label as such. "Natural" might be a Better term in that context.
Also aliens and technology.... While I don't disagree that this is a possibility, we must consider the possibility that god can be a much larger organism in which we are apart of. Us being a nuron, a cell, or another part of the internal workings of a much more encompassing being. Potentially even a mental construct or virtual program.
Maybe natural would be better. What I'm really pointing out is that it would not be supernatural.

From what I understand the Hindu belief is that this is a dream by the creator, and he wakes up every now and then... If we were part of a cell or something then it's not likely God would know or care about our existence though. I'll stick with the technology, unless he somehow eventually figured out how to overcome it. I feel that at some point God or beings before him would have had to develop it though.

Edited by nopeda, 19 December 2012 - 08:39 PM.


#9    nopeda

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:38 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 18 December 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Right! But Alian? Really?  What about multileveled?
Why do people have a problem with that?


#10    nopeda

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 18 December 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

@nopeda: all good stuff except for #17: why 'most likely'? Can you expand on this, please?
17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

It's most likely they would be physical, but if some of them are things our brain is made to believe happened but they actually did not, it could be argued that that would not be physical. In some ways it would be (most likely), but the imagined events themselves wouldn't actually take place.


#11    C235

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 08:53 PM

I agree with 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 & disagree with 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17.


#12    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:28 PM

View Postnopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:


Maybe natural would be better. What I'm really pointing out is that it would not be supernatural.

From what I understand the Hindu belief is that this is a dream by the creator, and he wakes up every now and then... If we were part of a cell or something then it's not likely God would know or care about our existence though. I'll stick with the technology, unless he somehow eventually figured out how to overcome it. I feel that at some point God or beings before him would have had to develop it though.
Well I care about my cells, I try to take care of them, and if they were conciousnes I'd probably love them. If god is the whole it has no choice but to look inward.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#13    White Crane Feather

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View Postnopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:


Why do people have a problem with that?
I think there is a possibility that the alians have been here Mabey even seeded life, but that dosnt constitute god, unless the alian comes from another universe perhaps and initiates this one. Even if we are a program in another beings computer, that still to me dosnt constitute a god even though it would be god like.

Consider the possibilities of a technological Singularity that happen trillions upon trillions of eons ago. A never ending cycle of slow progression of universes to evolve conciousness, then the conciousness taking concious control over its own evolution and continually expanding it exponentially.

In the documentary transcendence man Ray kurzwell thinks that we will evenchually manufacture tiny microscopic nano bots that remain connected to each other, are self replicating, and form immense ever growing network in which our own consciousnesses are downloaded into. He thinks one day the galaxy will "awaken" with this sort ever increasing technology.

I say in all of eternity, why hasnt it happened yet. I think it has. If a god like being can evolve, then it surely already has.



Edited by Seeker79, 19 December 2012 - 09:50 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#14    ouija ouija

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:18 PM

View Postnopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

It's most likely they would be physical, but if some of them are things our brain is made to believe happened but they actually did not, it could be argued that that would not be physical. In some ways it would be (most likely), but the imagined events themselves wouldn't actually take place.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but I still don't get what you mean :hmm: . You seem to be equating 'spiritual' with 'imagined events' ....... is that what you think? And you still haven't said why you consider this to be 'most likely'.

Life is all too much ............................................. and not enough.

It is only when you form your question precisely and accurately that you receive the true answer.

#15    nopeda

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:59 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 19 December 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Quote

nopeda, on 19 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:
17. If there are things which people consider to be spiritual, they are
most likely actually physical in ways we just can't appreciate yet.

It's most likely they would be physical, but if some of them are things our brain is made to believe happened but they actually did not, it could be argued that that would not be physical. In some ways it would be (most likely), but the imagined events themselves wouldn't actually take place.

Sorry if I'm being thick, but I still don't get what you mean :hmm: . You seem to be equating 'spiritual' with 'imagined events' ....... is that what you think? And you still haven't said why you consider this to be 'most likely'.

I say things that happen that seem spiritual to us can be physical in ways we're not aware of. Things that our brain believes happened because of outside influence could be physical in the chemical and electical manipulations that generate the illusions, while the percieved events never did physically take place.





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