Early Judaism and Christianity Monotheistic?

[Ashley-Star*Child]

I was watching a special on the History channel the other day and it stated Judaism and Christianity was NOT originally Monotheistic. They prayed to angels as gods!

Now that brings me too a passage in the OT that states (to the angels) by God 'I will make ye GODS'.

Then there's that passage in Genesis that states 'let us make man in OUR image'. The term for God in Genesis is ELOHIM, plural male and singular female (the Shekinah or what is now known as the 'Holy Spirit' is feminine'. The Benai Elohim are angels (Watchers/Grigori/Irin Qaddism) known as 'the sons of God'. Then there's the Trinity.

Is it REALLY Monotheistic? There is GOD, Yahweh, the boss, Creator, then it would seem 'lesser gods' angels. In the Book of Raziel said to have ben handed to Adam directly from God through Raziel written on a Sapphire Tablet, later also given to Enoch, Noah, Moses and Solomon, includes offerings to angels, calling upon them for various things, sacrifices to angels (such as turtle doves on this day or that) astrology, astronomy, magic, etc.

[RisenPrism]

Hmm, an interesting concept that most people don't ever consider. Not to mention that in Judaism Yahweh was just the more popular of two creator Gods believed in by different sects.....

[SilverCougar]

I've only been saying that since.. well long before you came here. *chuckles* I believe I've even tried to explain it to you as well.

Yes there is anthropological evidence that the early isrealites did indeed worship a pantheon. And that over time they basicaly made the war god the main god and all the other gods/goddesses were then placed as "angels" and "Seraphim" (Premptive.. NO ONE CARES DRAC!)

It was also evident that many of the biblical myths were taken from verious other pantheonic cultures. Lilith being a Sumatrian/Babilonian goddess. Then later Lucifer taken from the Roman pantheon. Even the flood was pretty much an embelished tale once it was writen down, again. (again as in.. first it was writen in the epic of gilgamesh)

It was very common place back then to mix and match.. One culture's god/goddess was another's demon/evil deity.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

I know about Gilgamesh I used that in my debate over Enoch. Many of the Egyptian gods have the same description as angels. In fact Isis was said to have been impregnated by the angel Amnael from Venus and begot Horus a half man half god. Greek mythology is rife with similar situations and like Judaism has a Greater god, Zues.

There's also the fact that Moses didn't actually see God (Yahweh) in that burning bush, he saw the angel Metatron (formerly Enoch) knwon as 'the Lesser Yahweh'. He got so powerful that God commanded that any angel who had something to say to God would have to first go through Metatron. One person saw Metatron throned and stated that there were two powers in Heaven. God was enraged by this and had Metatron dethroned and got Anafiel YHVH higher than Metatron to strike him with 60 lashes of fire. This brings me to the question, were the 613 rules made God's rules (Yahweh) or Metatron's rules? Metatron had alot to say about the 'evilness' of mankind and had a hatred of Egypt because the Egyptians were taught by the fallen angels in his book. Jubilees where Genesis came from was also told to Moses by an unnamed angel. The first account of Creation was told to Enoch directly from Yahweh and stated that God made the world universe with no counsel. It also states the day angels were created, and that Adam and Eve were a second kind of angel created to by king over this planet. But through their fall they inherited mortality (they were immortal as all angels are). It also states that it is not sin which angers God but the 'ignorance that is in him to sin', since after having been told both the light and dark paths to follow and about their free will, they became ignorant of what they were told and went and did it anyway. There is no 'original sin'. The Egyptians also had an Eden story with the Lotus plant being the 'tree of Knowledge' and so did the Sumerians.

I brought this up in another post I made a while back called 'Should there be a Bible?' which oddly no one replied to.

Also, the Eyptians knew (through the fallen angels) that Heaven is in space, they knew about astrology (the 8th and 9th levels of Heaven are the Zodiac belt and houses of the Zodiac respectively), etc. The Egyptians hold the secrets of Heaven. The line up of the Pyramids with Orion's belt is representative of Shemhazai leader of the fallen angels as he is hung upside down in the Heavens in the constellation of Orion.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Ashley-Star*Child

[SilverCougar]

The Metanon will always be... Allan Rickman =(

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Whose Allan Rickman? lol

[SilverCougar]

I'll pretend you didn't say that. *faints*

Ok ok..

Never watched Dogma or the Harry Potter movies eh?

Snape...

The Metanon. (I'll.. uh.. spare the no pants picture.. even though that was the best scene...)

OH! And..

The metanon with god.. (yes.. that is alanis morrisethoweveryouspellhername)

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Oh ok, yeah I've seen both lol

[IamsSon]

I've only been saying that since.. well long before you came here. *chuckles* I believe I've even tried to explain it to you as well.

Yes there is anthropological evidence that the early isrealites did indeed worship a pantheon. And that over time they basicaly made the war god the main god and all the other gods/goddesses were then placed as "angels" and "Seraphim" (Premptive.. NO ONE CARES DRAC!)

It was also evident that many of the biblical myths were taken from verious other pantheonic cultures. Lilith being a Sumatrian/Babilonian goddess. Then later Lucifer taken from the Roman pantheon. Even the flood was pretty much an embelished tale once it was writen down, again. (again as in.. first it was writen in the epic of gilgamesh)

It was very common place back then to mix and match.. One culture's god/goddess was another's demon/evil deity.

This is interesting sc, what kind of anthropological evidence? do you have a link, that must be interesting reading.

[SilverCougar]

College first.. then linkage. ;P *zooms out the door*

[Moondoggy]

How much does the spirit of God make one deity? The Angels are godlike certainly. It all comes down to who's the boss I suppose.

[SilverCougar]

Well I guess since the person who started this thread didn't get asked to cite sources. (And one source I can't site because it to was a documentary) And I'm hopeing that atleast one are two are still out there... (see what you get for asking me to cite sources after two or three years ;P)

Ahh.. early Goddess worship theory..

And this is directly from The JEWISH virtual library. So there, a biased site towards judaism.. ;P

Now biased from an Athiest stance.. but still very analitical and holds some good information

There.. three links. ;P Anymore and It would just be "Eh.. go google it ya putz!"

[IamsSon]

Well I guess since the person who started this thread didn't get asked to cite sources. (And one source I can't site because it to was a documentary) And I'm hopeing that atleast one are two are still out there... (see what you get for asking me to cite sources after two or three years ;P)

Ahh.. early Goddess worship theory..

And this is directly from The JEWISH virtual library. So there, a biased site towards judaism.. ;P

Now biased from an Athiest stance.. but still very analitical and holds some good information

There.. three links. ;P Anymore and It would just be "Eh.. go google it ya putz!"

Interesting, thanks SC. However, I must say these articles all seem to make a wild leap in assuming polytheism, and disregard a lot of very basic theology.

[Cadetak]

Well depends how you define a god. None of God's creations come close to his power...at most angels are kind of like sub-gods.

Angels are no more gods then Superman is.

[Desty]

thats because old christians are mostly pagan converts, why do you think the trinity still exists? something passed down from the pagan times of the christian religion. Trinity = worship other things then god, two things to be exact.

[SilverCougar]

Interesting, thanks SC. However, I must say these articles all seem to make a wild leap in assuming polytheism, and disregard a lot of very basic theology.

Somehow I knew you'd find a way to pass it off as unfeesable. *shrugs* tcha.

[IamsSon]

Somehow I knew you'd find a way to pass it off as unfeesable. *shrugs* tcha.

Actually, I thought it would be interesting, and I may do some google research on it myself, but the articles you linked seemed to assume that the polytheistic nature of Judaism/Christianity was obvious and went on to use that assumption to support their point. None of these authors, at least in these particular articles really even came close to proving that there is a polytheistic nature to Judaism/Christianity.

Edited February 2, 2007 by IamsSon

[Mr Walker]

My experiences lead me to believe there are two possibilities, if you accept that an entity we call god exists. The first is that in it pure form this entity is too powerful/different/incomprehensible for us to relate to directly, and so it sends emmissaries of itself endowed with elements/aspects of its power, to maintain physical contact with us. The other possibility is that when the entity we know as god conacts us, we process this contact through our existing cultural filters/knowledge and background, into a form that make communication possible. For example, i have seen and talked to one angel in the classical form of a blinding pillar of light. Another appeared in a suit as just a normal man. Only their actions showed their power. However, in both cases the angels spoke in good if authoritative English. (There would have been no point to the contact if they had not) This is also the case with the number of auditory warnings i have received over the years unaccompanied by any vision. If I was a hindu i would expect the contact to be made in a culturally relevant and undestandable form, or even if I was Wiccan or a Geaist.

Edited February 3, 2007 by Mr Walker

[SilverCougar]

Actually, I thought it would be interesting, and I may do some google research on it myself, but the articles you linked seemed to assume that the polytheistic nature of Judaism/Christianity was obvious and went on to use that assumption to support their point. None of these authors, at least in these particular articles really even came close to proving that there is a polytheistic nature to Judaism/Christianity.

And no one said it was proof. It was a working theory. And since all we have to go by is writings older then the bible, and the bible itself... along with finding structures, and statues and such that are older then the isrealites and their single god.. it's always going to remain a theory. Much like everything else.

[brave_new_world]

My experiences lead me to believe there are two possibilities, if you accept that an entity we call god exists. The first is that in it pure form this entity is too powerful/different/incomprehensible for us to relate to directly, and so it sends emmissaries of itself endowed with elements/aspects of its power, to maintain physical contact with us. The other possibility is that when the entity we know as god conacts us, we process this contact through our existing cultural filters/knowledge and background, into a form that make communication possible. For example, i have seen and talked to one angel in the classical form of a blinding pillar of light. Another appeared in a suit as just a normal man. Only their actions showed their power. However, in both cases the angels spoke in good if authoritative English. (There would have been no point to the contact if they had not) This is also the case with the number of auditory warnings i have received over the years unaccompanied by any vision. If I was a hindu i would expect the contact to be made in a culturally relevant and undestandable form, or even if I was Wiccan or a Geaist.

I rekon it is possible for all people to directly comprehend God. The Gurus of india have been saying it for thousands of years long before judaism even existed. It just takes a little effort to read their universal teachings. From Sri RamaKrishna, Shankara, Ramana Maharshi, Sri Aurobido etc etc etc here is one small quote from shankara:

You are the Self, the infinite Being, the pure, unchanging Consciousness, which pervades everything. Your nature is bliss and your glory is without stain. Because you identify yourself with the ego, you are tied to birth and death. Your bondage has no other cause.

Or take a slice of Ramana Maharshi: Pleasure or Pain are only aspects of the mind. Our essential nature is happiness. We forget the Self and imagine the body or mind to be the Self. It is this wrong identity that gives rise to misery.

Hinduism is so vast and open. And one thing it has over christianity and Judaism is that the Hindus and Buddhist admit that there is always new Messiahs or Enlightened ones to help mankind at any epoch. While with christianity there has been and only ever can be one. And the Jews are still waiting for there one and only prophet.

That there can only ever be one Enlightened one who can know god isn't consistent with true spirituality in my opinion. Also all the hindu gurus emphasize over and over that God is in us and that our true identity is God making their religion a more individual empowering one while at the same time getting rid of the egocentricity because the only way to know God within is through humility. Let us not forget the most famous line Jesus said concerning the kingdom of god:

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

And how do we reach this Kingdom of God within??????????? The answer is simple yet pure:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and Great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This all the major and minor Hindu Gurus would agree with. Infact some often recite this to christians and non-christians in helping people with their path to spirituality. Anyway that is my opinion.

Edited February 3, 2007 by brave_new_world

[3rd rock resident alien]

Your God orders all of his followers to join the discussions in the Holy Council of Gods. It wants you to represent him and his followers.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=1544800

[bornagainuhmanduh]

I recently read that Elohim, a Hebrew word for GOD, originally meant GODS. Ohim means God and El is plural (like s).

[Leonardo]

It's possible (and hotly debated) that polydemonism evolved into polytheism and the proper and common name Elohim was a reference to a being in a polydemonic belief.

Please note that polydemonism isn't the worship of many demons (as in biblical demons) - it is the worship of spirits where a confluence of many, otherwise semi-potent, spirits (both good and bad) may be considered a single entity. This co-mingling may be only temporary and the entity will then dissolve into it's constituent parts. The main difference between polydemonism and polytheism is that the spirits are anthropomorphised in polytheism (and retain their individuality almost exclusively) whereas they retain their animistic (sometimes indeterminate) forms in polydemonism.

In my opinion it seems that polydemonism is a natural ancestor to polytheism and that monotheism evolved from the elevation of one from a pantheon of divinities, based on tribal dominance.

Edited February 17, 2007 by Leonardo

[Moondoggy]

An Orthodox Jew does not pray to Angels. Are angelic being godlike? Certainly but who made who? There is one El Shaddai. The mantra of Israel is, "Hear O' Israel the Lord our God is one." The eastern mannerism unfolds these things simply. To refer to the Judges of Israel as "gods" was because of their position and responsibility only, as was the case when God told Moses that he would make him a "God unto Pharoah and Aaron would be his prophet". Again it is obvious that this figurative language and not true to fact. Paul's epistle to the church at Rome held a warning to not worship the creation but rather the creator. Early Christianity held close to its Judaic roots, the Messiah was never ever thought to be God, but a servant of God, it took the ideaologies of man to to once again make the creation a false god and worship it.

[bornagainuhmanduh]

It's possible (and hotly debated) that polydemonism evolved into polytheism and the proper and common name Elohim was a reference to a being in a polydemonic belief.

Please note that polydemonism isn't the worship of many demons (as in biblical demons) - it is the worship of spirits where a confluence of many, otherwise semi-potent, spirits (both good and bad) may be considered a single entity. This co-mingling may be only temporary and the entity will then dissolve into it's constituent parts. The main difference between polydemonism and polytheism is that the spirits are anthropomorphised in polytheism (and retain their individuality almost exclusively) whereas they retain their animistic (sometimes indeterminate) forms in polydemonism.

In my opinion it seems that polydemonism is a natural ancestor to polytheism and that monotheism evolved from the elevation of one from a pantheon of divinities, based on tribal dominance.

I would have to agree with these statements. The deities originally worshipped by ancient people of the middle east were not angels. Astarte (Ishtar in Mesopotamian texts) was the original goddess of fertility, sexuality and war. In Jewish mythology, she is referred to as Ashtoreth, interpreted as a female demon of lust in Hebrew monotheism. It is also interesting to note that in Hebrew, Ashtoreth is a masculine form of the name.

I also agree that various forms of gods/goddesses evolve to reflect changes within the society they were created. Gods of war often replaced goddesses during invasions, or goddesses evolved to reflect this invasion by becoming goddesses of war.

The idea of polydemonism predating other forms seems very likely. People of ancient times had very short life spans, living under cruel conditions. Given the amount of wisdom possessed by such people searching to appease or blame something to add some level of comfort or understanding to their harsh living conditions would have led to the creation of such deities.

Edited February 17, 2007 by uhmanduh