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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

burglars shot reasonable force murder

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#61    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 10:55 PM

[

View PostRafterman, on 28 November 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Not to mention, if you fire a warning shot inside, you really mess up your ceiling or the finish on your floors.

Or you could clean up blood and brain matter off the walls, floor, and ceiling.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 28 November 2012 - 10:56 PM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#62    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

View PostOverSword, on 28 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

My point is if you are not a trained professional, who has been schooled to remain as calm as is possible in stressful situations, and you pull a gun, pointing it and not firing can get you shot. firing a warning shot in hopes of intimidating someone can get you shot.  My uncle, a police officer stresses if you ever feel the need to pull your gun to defend youself shoot to kill. do not point, do not threaten, shoot to kill.  If you do not intend to shoot someone you should never ever pull a gun out.  The part about the warning shot was the only part I was crticizing you about, I totaly agree with you that he went to far with the kill shot as you can see in my original post.  But it really can't be stressed enough, taking a warning shot is just a very bad idea.  The police don't take warning shots that is hollywood BS.

Why does the perp have to be standing in front of me when I shoot my warning shot? Or even  be facing me. This guy was in a basement, the kids were upstairs, he had plenty of room to shoot off a shot or two. I can be on the second floor of my home and hear perps downstairs and can most definitely get off a warning shot and call 911.

I keep repeating, my point is, there is no one rule fits every situation, ever.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 28 November 2012 - 11:02 PM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#63    ouija ouija

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

View PostRafterman, on 28 November 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Not to mention, if you fire a warning shot inside, you really mess up your ceiling or the finish on your floors.

Let's not forget the chances of ricochet-ing bullet hitting you!

Life is all too much ............................................. and not enough.

It is only when you form your question precisely and accurately that you receive the true answer.

#64    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:04 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 28 November 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I know lots of people who study Tai-Kwan-Do and are completely helpless. My wife's youngest sister and her friend (Both 14 year old girls) were telling me that it was completely safe for both of them to wander around town late at night because both knew some Tai-Kwan-Do, and one was a black belt. Being a 180 pound 5'9" man, I said, "Oh yeah?" and proceeded, with no training in martial arts at all, to hold both of them down at once and basically slap them around at will.

Knowing martial arts does not protect you unless you are EXTREMELY GOOD at it.

I don't believe an average woman with average self defense knowledge who is attacked has no self-defense. Or do I believe that no woman has been successful using self-defense to fight off an attacker unless she's an instructor.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 28 November 2012 - 11:12 PM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#65    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:11 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 28 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Let's not forget the chances of ricochet-ing bullet hitting you!

Ricochet off what? What are you shooting, a bb gun? And what do you live in. Ricochet is a very unlikely possibility in a home, that would be my guess anyway.

And I better not miss the the perp if I were worried about ricochet.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 28 November 2012 - 11:13 PM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#66    ouija ouija

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:30 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 28 November 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Ricochet off what? What are you shooting, a bb gun? And what do you live in. Ricochet is a very unlikely possibility in a home, that would be my guess anyway.

And I better not miss the the perp if I were worried about ricochet.

That was a joke! We don't have guns here in the UK ...... well, farmers and some criminals do, obviously ...... so my knowledge of them comes from US cartoons :)

Life is all too much ............................................. and not enough.

It is only when you form your question precisely and accurately that you receive the true answer.

#67    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:36 PM

A warning shot from a .22? You wouldn't even hear it if it was shot in the basement and you were upstairs.


#68    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 28 November 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

That was a joke! We don't have guns here in the UK ...... well, farmers and some criminals do, obviously ...... so my knowledge of them comes from US cartoons :)

:tu:

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#69    QuiteContrary

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:48 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 28 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

A warning shot from a .22? You wouldn't even hear it if it was shot in the basement and you were upstairs.

I strongly disagree.

.22 breaks the sound barrier. And if i was standing at the top of the stairs I'd absolutely hear it.

Didn't the guy in the OP shoot with a .223, not a .22. .223 is an assault rifle with a lot of powder behind it.

The thought is the kids were outside of the house and didn't hear the shots, or knew what they were. Each came inside the house one at a time, (from an upstairs window?)and he waited for each one in the basement. The whole event is twisted, if you ask me, on both sides.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 29 November 2012 - 12:03 AM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#70    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 28 November 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

I strongly disagree. Of course every home is different, if my basement was some sort of fortress with a shut steel door. Or some similar scenario. But then I could lock out the perps for good, no gun necessary.

.22 breaks the sound barrier. And if i was standing at the top of the stairs I'd absolutely hear it.

The most common .22 ammo is 950 FPS. Sound barrier is 1079 FPS. You can get high powered ammo up to 1250 FPS. The type of ammo is not specified. I have become interested in shooting recently and can safely say i don't use or need hearing protection with a .22 rifle and hence it is not loud enough to frighten anyone away. In fact, you might not even recognize the sound as gun fire.


#71    QuiteContrary

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:08 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 28 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

The most common .22 ammo is 950 FPS. Sound barrier is 1079 FPS. You can get high powered ammo up to 1250 FPS. The type of ammo is not specified. I have become interested in shooting recently and can safely say i don't use or need hearing protection with a .22 rifle and hence it is not loud enough to frighten anyone away. In fact, you might not even recognize the sound as gun fire.

Aren't subsonic rounds called subsonic? I am talking about my option to use a warning shot. And if I wanted to have the option to scare away perps with gunfire, I know which one I'd own, not subsonic rounds.

And if I wanted the option of also shooting a perp, I wouldn't own a .22 for that purpose either.

Any perp would not mistake my shots for anything but gunshots.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 29 November 2012 - 12:11 AM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#72    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:37 AM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 29 November 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Aren't subsonic rounds called subsonic? I am talking about my option to use a warning shot. And if I wanted to have the option to scare away perps with gunfire, I know which one I'd own, not subsonic rounds.

And if I wanted the option of also shooting a perp, I wouldn't own a .22 for that purpose either.

Any perp would not mistake my shots for anything but gunshots.

If it was legal in my country to use a gun for self defense (if you have displayed any interest in self defense you cannot own a gun) i wouldn't be firing warning shots. Either you have identified that the intruder is not an immediate threat, and hence you shouldn't shoot, or you haven't identified that the target isn't a immediate threat, hence you take no chances and you shoot at the intruder.

All this is acedemic for me, as my gun is locked in the attic and is only accessable with a ladder, so it's not very likely i can get to the gun, even if my life depended on it, but the law is the law.


#73    AWJohn

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:15 AM

I hope the trash burns in hell (If it existed)


#74    QuiteContrary

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 29 November 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

If it was legal in my country to use a gun for self defense (if you have displayed any interest in self defense you cannot own a gun) i wouldn't be firing warning shots. Either you have identified that the intruder is not an immediate threat, and hence you shouldn't shoot, or you haven't identified that the target isn't a immediate threat, hence you take no chances and you shoot at the intruder.

All this is acedemic for me, as my gun is locked in the attic and is only accessable with a ladder, so it's not very likely i can get to the gun, even if my life depended on it, but the law is the law.

bolding mine

You say you wouldn't fire warning shots. That for you, there are only two options. Identify the situation as a  non threat and don't shoot or take no chances and shoot.

Not a threat would be like when your son locks himself out and comes in through a window at 3am. (I'm glad I wouldn't shoot him with my warning shot)

Otherwise, a non lethal threat would entail letting a perp get close to me or all the way inside my home and wait until he makes his intentions known. I don't like this option, I plan on avoiding with warnings (vocal and gun if necessary), defense, escape route, dogs, etc.

Too many innocent people get accidentally shot by people who know them.

So I prefer more than two options.

Edited by QuiteContrary, 29 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#75    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 01:51 AM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 29 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

bolding mine

You say you wouldn't fire warning shots. That for you, there are only two options. Identify the situation as a  non threat and don't shoot or take no chances and shoot.

Not a threat would be like when your son locks himself out and comes in through a window at 3am. (I'm glad I wouldn't shoot him with my warning shot)

Otherwise, a non lethal threat would entail letting a perp get close to me or all the way inside my home and wait until he makes his intentions known. I don't like this option, I plan on avoiding with warnings (vocal and gun if necessary), defense, escape route, dogs, etc.

Too many innocent people get accidentally shot by people who know them.

So I prefer more than two options.

So fire a warning shot which lets the intruder know that your armed, and if he has a gun he'll use it. Doesn't sound like a safe option to me.





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