4036 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

OK, so either the girls who wrote Adelas Book changed some dates or the Sidon priests landed in Marseille c. 1700BC.

Was it originally recorded chronologically wrong by the writers of the book, in some parts, in an attempt back then to make it appear older I wonder.

And I can only conclude that Phonisia has been used at that time and is a foreign word they used to correspond to what they knew as Palm Land.

One thing is clear: Kalta went to the Gola in Massilia (walked on water, sailed with them to Kadik/Cadiz and so on), so they were already there. Maybe they had settled just before the war between Min-erva and Kalta. But then you still have a date earlier than 1630 BCE.

And when was the first mention of PO-NI-KI on Crete? Or that Egyptian word, FENKHU?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 January 2013 - 04:45 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Phoenicians and the West: Politics, Colonies and Trade
By Maria Eugenia Aubet

Look here what it says about that Egyptian word (page 9):

http://books.google....gyptian&f=false

And you can also read about the Mycenean word.

It apparently isn't as clear-cut as Wiki suggests.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

One thing is clear: Kalta went to the Gola in Massilia (walked on water, sailed with them to Kadik/Cadiz and so on), so they were already there. Maybe they had settled just before the war between Min-erva and Kalta. But then you still have a date earlier than 1630 BCE.

And when was the first mention of PO-NI-KI on Crete? Or that Egyptian word, FENKHU?

.

I have no idea. You might find something to follow up in both links.
With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations
http://en.wikipedia....enix_(mythology)
The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

1630BC is it, ok.

You convinced me that they are already there when she gets there, so yes.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I have no idea. You might find something to follow up in both links.
With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations
http://en.wikipedia....enix_(mythology)
The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

1630BC is it, ok.

You convinced me that they are already there when she gets there, so yes.

I did check the reference, and it's a book in French.....sigh.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 22 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

The Phoenicians and the West: Politics, Colonies and Trade
By Maria Eugenia Aubet

Look here what it says about that Egyptian word (page 9):

http://books.google....gyptian&f=false

And you can also read about the Mycenean word.

It apparently isn't as clear-cut as Wiki suggests.

Yeah I see.
Aromatic herb?
OK, well I better go to bed and sleep on it. Goodnight.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Yeah I see.
Aromatic herb?
OK, well I better go to bed and sleep on it. Goodnight.

Sleep well, and don't dream about all these blond haired Nordic sailors or the dark haired Phoenician ones, lol.

I'll try to find that French reference online.

I am already glad the Fryans didn't claim to have visited China..

[The Puzzler]

Is incense an aromatic herb?

The Phoenix made his next with incense twigs and myrrh is also mentioned.

I think Pliny mentioned a herb called herba phoenica

The Linear B meaning of this word could indicate that it means this - aromatic herb called herba phoenica

The question is, why is the herb called that in connection to Phoenicia

Something in the Linear B word must indicate the meaning of Phoenicia

Probably the palmtree - herb of palmland

The palm has to be the root for the word Phoenicia I reckon.

And also for Phoenix probably hence it's association with the palm tree. Fruit of the Date Palm
Phoenix dactylifera http://simple.wikipe.../wiki/Palm_tree

Reading that Wiki article gave me the impression that the tree represented life itself and was a big part of the religion in Phoenicia as well. It also represented the Sun in the form of the bird on top, palms only grew in hot areas. The Assyrian sacred tree concept reminds me again of the ritual going on in the Cretan picture.

In Judaism, the palm represents peace and plenty. The palm may also symbolize the Tree of Life in Kabbalah.
Prophet Muhammad is said to have built his home out of palm, and the palm represents rest and hospitality in many cultures of the Middle East.
Palm stems represented long life to the Ancient Egyptians, and the god Huh was often shown holding a palm stem in one or both hands.
The sacred tree of the Assyrians was a palm that represents the god Ishtar connecting heaven, the crown of the tree, and earth, the base of the trunk. The Mesopotamian goddess Inanna, who had a part in the sacred marriage ritual, was thought of as the one who made the dates abundant ^[17].
The palm tree was a sacred sign of Apollo in Ancient Greece because he had been born under one


The Fryans might be right, etymologically Palm Land and Phoenicia might be the same.

Anyway, back on track...

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 22 January 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

I have no idea. You might find something to follow up in both links.
With the deciphering of the Linear B script in the 20th century, however, the ancestor of Greek φοίνιξ was confirmed in Mycenaean Greek po-ni-ke, itself open to a variety of interpretations
http://en.wikipedia....enix_(mythology)
The word stems from Mycenaean po-ni-ki-jo, po-ni-ki, ultimately borrowed from Ancient Egyptian fnḥw (fenkhu)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

1630BC is it, ok.

You convinced me that they are already there when she gets there, so yes.

Regarding Kälta - have you never wondered where Kälta's burgh KÄLTA.S BURCH - later renamed KÊREN.ÄK and KÊREN.HERNE was situated? The OLB says it was in BERCH.LAND, which most authors agree is in the area of Scotland, though still even Alewyn points to CARNAC in Brittany...

[The Puzzler]

Apol, on 23 January 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Regarding Kälta - have you never wondered where Kälta's burgh KÄLTA.S BURCH - later renamed KÊREN.ÄK and KÊREN.HERNE was situated? The OLB says it was in BERCH.LAND, which most authors agree is in the area of Scotland, though still even Alewyn points to CARNAC in Brittany...

Yes, wonder alot about it.

Here is a post from the archived 1st Part of this thread, it shows a map with Caereni in the top Nth corner of Scotland, according to information Knul supplied here.
http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=6825


On todays maps I see the name Kearvaig in this area.

This is about brochs, a type of 'brough' - found in Northern Scotland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broch

This shows distribution of them...so there is one where Knul has Kerenac situated. Top nth west corner.

Edited by The Puzzler, 23 January 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[Abramelin]

Puzz, I think that what you are trying to do (finding the 'palm tree' in the name Phoenicia) is the same as trying to find either the gem or the colour in Turquoise.

Anyway, what tree is kind of really  famous and strongly connected with Phoenicia? It's the cedar tree; just watch the Lebanese flag.

The Egyptians got their cedar trees from that area already in 3000 BCE, and the Phoenicians built their boats using this tree.

And according to the Etymology Online site:

Cedar oil was used by the Egyptians in embalming as a preservative against decay and the word for it was used figuratively for "immortality" by the Romans.

Or look here:
http://en.wikipedia....bolism_and_uses

The original name for the cedar was something close to "Arz":
http://en.wikipedia....s_of_the_Cedars

According to the next the Greeks gave the Phoenicians their new name in the 9th century BCE:

Phoenicia (fĭnē'shə), ancient territory occupied by Phoenicians. The name Phoenicia also appears as Phenice and Phenicia. These people were Canaanites (see Canaan), and in the 9th cent. B.C. the Greeks gave the new appellation Phoenicians to those Canaanites who lived on the seacoast and traded with the Greeks.

http://www.answers.com/topic/phoenicia

,

Edited by Abramelin, 23 January 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[Abramelin]

I have posted this before, but I'm not sure I posted it in this thread:

Who were the Phoenicians?

(...)

Thus having eliminated one possibility, it remains for us
to conclude that Herodotus most probably includes the Israelites under the
term "Phoenicians".

According to Herodotus (Vii – 89) "These Phoenicians dwelt in old time,
as they say, by the Red Sea, Passing over from thence, they now inhabit
the sea coast of Syria."9 Which sea does Herodotus call the Red Sea? In his
writings we find that the river Euphrates flows from Armenia and empties
into the Red Sea,10 and that the Tigris also flows into the Red Sea.11 We are
led to assume that Herodotus' Red Sea is today's Persian Gulf, and there are
scholars who believe this to be so.12

(...)

We have already discussed in previous chapters the indubitable
conclusion, based on the el–Amarna tablets and the Bible, that the region
of Sidon, generally accepted as a "Phoenician" region, was conquered by the
tribe of Asher. It was shown that names such as Tyrian and Sidonian do not
specifically mean Canaanites. Any citizen of Tyre or Sidon was called Tyrian
or Sidonian, and these names cannot be equated with the term Canaanite, as
accepted today. We have now seen that if Herodotus tells us anything about
the Israelites it must be looked for under the term "Phoenicians". When
Diodorus gives a summary account of the Jewish origins, he describes them
as aliens in Egypt, of whom "the most outstanding and active among them"
are referred to as Phoenicians. We may therefore definitely conclude that the
term "Phoenicians" is the Greek name for the nation of Israel.

http://www.whowereth...)_p175-p180.pdf

Or this entry in my UM blog:

http://www.unexplain...showentry=26483


And then there was this Lebanese professor, Kamal Salibi, who wrote a book about the true country of Abraham, a 'new theory on the origin of the people of Israel'...

http://www.amazon.co...i/dp/0224028308

http://www.independe...st-2350184.html

In short: he places the whole (or much of) the history of Israel in Western Arabia, at the coast of the Red Sea (I have the Dutch edition).

It's a much disputed theory, but if we combine it with what the Israeli professor (Nissim Raphael Ganor) stated (the Phoenicians and Hebrews being one and the same people), things might become clear....

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 January 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[The Puzzler]

I turned to a book I have Archaeology of the Biblical Lands by Magnus Magnuson. Interesting read.
I think that Phoencians were Canaanites and Hebrews are a group of Canaanites who broke away from this religion of Baal, El, Asherah etc.
El is God. Wralda is God.
But the worshipping going on in most of early pre-Israelite Canaan which included Phoenicia and Ugarit was not what the new Jewish religion saw as suitable, so outlawed it among themselves.

The priests of Sidon at given date in OLB would be Canaanite priests practicing a religion of the Canaanites, that is typically Phoenician. Jews and Hebrews installed their religion and the Tyrians and co. were laid to waste by God as their 'unholy' ways went down in history with temple prostitution, sacrifice and so forth to Baal.
They had pillars everywhere and the Jewish God outlawed them, They were typical of Phoenician structures, these pillars, often a TREE, were actually Asherah, the wife of El. No longer existant in Jewish, Catholic or Christian faith now. But God did have a wife, ask the Sami.

Canaanites were Phoenicians and Hebrews/Jews but the Hebrews are basically a religious offshoot, not an actual different people imo. El probably transferred into a new God, who was really what Wralda was, before becoming contaminated by the 'religious abominations' that abounded in Canaan.

I was kinda surprised to also see many upright standing stones in Canaan, you would think you were looking at a field in Europe but no, huge standing stones, which represented Gods. Now I wonder all those standiing stones in Europe represent...

Anyway, all very fascinating.

[Apol]

Apol, on 23 January 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Regarding Kälta - have you never wondered where Kälta's burgh KÄLTA.S BURCH - later renamed KÊREN.ÄK and KÊREN.HERNE was situated? The OLB says it was in BERCH.LAND, which most authors agree is in the area of Scotland, though still even Alewyn points to CARNAC in Brittany...

Thank you - that's indeed an interesting observation. I have another theory, though. Here it is:
It is written: "...thousands of Gola have went to North Brittanja. A short time ago the uppermost of the Golum was established at the burgh which is called Kêrenäk – which means ‘corner’, from where he gave his commands to all the other Gola. All their gold was also brought together there. Kêrenherne, or Kêrenäk, is a stone burgh which before belonged to Kälta,"
When Âskar had overpowered the Phoenician priests, the Dênamarkers became green with envy, and they would cross the sea to catch him. This indicates that we should search for Kälta's former burgh on the east coast of Great Britain. There exists an age-old fortification on the hilltops of Eildon Hill near Melrose, just south of today's Scottish border. At these heights - alongside the River Tweed - the largest settlement of the Scottish Bronze Age is situated. Upon the more than 300 horizontal foundations that are cut into the hillside, between 3,000 and 6,000 people had their residences; and one knows that there was activity in the place as far back in time as around 1000 BC. The ramparts have been built and rebuilt in three stages - the last time by the Romans in the 1st century BC. The Romans named the hillfort Trimontium - from Eildon Hill's three mountain peaks.
The text says that Âskar took two islands as shelter for his ships. There exist very few islands on the east coast of Great Britain, but just 25 kms south of where River Tweed empties into the North Sea, we have the Farne Islands - which certainly also must have been the only ilands that suited for Âskar's purpose. The sea kings wanted small islands just outside the coast as safe harbours for their ships - especially islands with deep bays, but also two islands situated beside each other, between which the fleet could lay sheltered from wind and waves. This was the reason why Âskar chose two islands. If the Farne Islands was the place, I would believe that he occupied the innermost of the island groups, as it looks like they must have been the most suitable. He may have sailed his fleet into the creek formed by the Inner Farne and West Wideopen with Knoxes Reef. The sandbanks between these islands must have been suitable for landing.

'Farne' is usually explained as being a gaelic-scotch name derived from ærn ('house') or fearn ('distant'). Yet, there lies also a Farne island separated alongside the coast, a little farther northwest. This tidal island, which at ebb-tide is linked to land, is called Lindisfarne or Lindesfarne. It is famous for its monastery, and from the fact that the Vikings attacked it in AD 793 and thus initiated the Viking Age. This would have been a natural site for the first stopping of intruders to Eildon Hill, as well as for the defence of the coastline.
The burgh was not formed like a ringwallburgh - according to the Frisian tradition of how a burgh should look like. That was not in Kälta's interest - to her the protection of her territory was the essential, which she could do in the same way as the Gola.
One do not know the background of the name Lindisfarne; though Anthony D. Mills has forwarded a theory that it should mean 'the island of the travellers from Lindsey'.
I think the background of the name has a slightly different history. Kälta's burgh was called Kêren.äk – in Frisian they called it Kêren.herne. When Âskar conquered the burgh he renamed it Linda.s.herne in memory of Adela Oera Linda. After the Magy was killed, several sites were named from her - first and foremost Lindas.nose and Lindas.burch. Âskar's renaming of Kêren.herne was one of his several attempts to cotton up to the Adelings.

[The Puzzler]

Only Tyrians should be the true incomers of the story about arriving from the Red Sea, not the whole of Canaan. People from Sidon were there very early and do not have to be the Phoenicians who arrived from the Red Sea.

The OLB touches on this - they arrive at Tyre, settle there - giving Tyrians only a Frisian heritage.

Even though the Tyrians might really be from the Red Sea, the OLB has included the foundation of Tyre as an event by them.

When Tyre, Sidon and the coastal area was established as traders I'd say it then became known as Phoenicia and all these coastal people were now Phoenicians.

[Apol]

http://en.wikipedia....eHolyIsland.jpg

Edited by Apol, 23 January 2013 - 02:37 PM.