54 replies to this topic

[ciriuslea]

libstaK, on 23 December 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

You have to look into some Interfaith events around the world to see it.  I remember when the Dalai Llama came to Melbourne and we all went, Muslim, Christian, Orthodox, Buddhist, Baptist, Orthodox - an ecclectic bunch in and of ourselves.

When we arrived the big screen had speakers of all our faiths-including Islam, talking about the core message of Love, Compassion and Forgiveness.  The same can be said of Interfaith events the world over, Pope John Paul II was key to many of them.

Of course, there was no bloodshed so it barely rated a blip on the radar of news media and nobody knows how many thousands turn out regularly to show unity against violence, fear and hatred.

I live on the fringe of a Muslim community in a city with huge cultural and religious differences, and know exactly the kind of event your talking about, and I suppose if Moderate leaders had managed to calm this mob it probably wouldn't have even reached the news, I do think that these type of reports serve a purpose and that's fear, but then I think this was a mob perhaps of those people who were moderates whipped into a frenzy and hell bent on killing people...its a mad situation which ever way you look at it.

[Likely Guy]

Burn your wife, or throw acid in her face. Not so illegal.
Burn the holy book, guilty or not, that'll give you a death sentence by mob.

Those priorities are screwed.

Edited by Likely Guy, 23 December 2012 - 05:23 AM.

[The world needs you]

shadowhive, on 23 December 2012 - 01:23 AM, said:

Good.

That's the problem isn't it? I don't condemn this mob because they are muslim. I condemn this mob because they murdered someone. I would be just as critical if it as an atheist christian or pagan mob that did it.

The trouble is, though, that because religion is involved suddenly you're not condemning them because they're murderers, you're condemning their religion. No, I'm not condemning their religion. The closest is condemning the part they used to justify murdering someone but that's because it was used to justify murdering someone.

I don't condemn religions, I condemn the parts of religions that are used to justify such activity.

I am not certain I appreciate the nuance presented in your post because instead of explaining the fine difference to further understanding it seems instead intended to allow continued attacks on others. It seems evasive and wiggly.

Surgical strikes are still strikes.

shadowhive, on 22 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Excuse me but there's a big difference between western society and there, that killing being a prime example.

You can claim you merely condemn the mob and inch your way to them claiming "the closest" part of your condemnation is to the specific part of their religion....ya, this is all at odds with what you stated above where you noted that even our societies are different, it is fair to generally say such because in essence we are different, but when someone claims so with the notion that we are better or superior, well then, no, such bigotry should not be accepted as normal conversation but instead be labeled for what it is.

shadowhive, on 22 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

A mob of 200 motivated by their religion, with the goverment on their side and no one in their country really condemning them. Now that is a world of difference.

Followed up by introducing attacks on their government and country.

shadowhive, on 22 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

As others have said, how long should we give them to 'evolve' because honestly, these people are centuries behind us.

Now you next call them backward, more or less, but it should be clarified that technologically, ethically, yes they are behind us, but this is not a characteristic of them as a people. When you say "these people" it becomes disturbing.

Take a person and depending on what environment they are born and/or live in they will become a different person. People can change depending on their background at the moment and that is never static. Those who are most interested in change in that region understand we need to help those inside those societies help change their own societies and then the rest of the people will change. At one time many in America were racially bigoted, we used to have our own religious bigotry too, people formed mobs, people unfairly died, but attitudes change.

The constant attacks on Muslims and others by a few bigots in the West hinders this change taking place.

The hatred contained in the views of extremist there is made up of the same stuff in the those here in the West who do nothing but hate others who are different than them too. You guys are the same in my view and both part the problem. Two sides of the same coin but there is a third side that turns conflict into synthesis.

Things will change because too many people are becoming part of the solution, there is hope, change will occur with or without your help.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[The world needs you]

shadowhive, on 22 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Excuse me but there's a big difference between western society and there, that killing being a prime example.

That killing was universally condemned and done by one man, not endorsed by religion or the government. Compare that to the mob. A mob of 200 motivated by their religion, with the goverment on their side and no one in their country really condemning them. Now that is a world of difference.

As others have said, how long should we give them to 'evolve' because honestly, these people are centuries behind us.

Murder is wrong, universally and we should condemn it. Be it the man who decides to shoot up the school, the terrorist who blows himself up or the mob that kills a man. All should be condemned with equal measure. We shouldn't be pausing and treating this thing as you want to. You seemingly want to lessen the tragedy of this man's death, to cast the calllousness of the act aside as something done simply as 'part of the culture'. That we shouldn't condemn it and instead 'give them time'. I'm sorry, but no we should not and to do as you ask belittle's his death and every other at the hands of these kinds of people.

Sorry, but I'm going to condemn those people as readily as anyone else that commits an act of murder, regardless of who or where they are. I'm also going to condemn their society because unlike America, it's a society that condones this behaviour and I cannot in good conscience do anything other than condemn it.

OK fact check time.

Did you even read the initial story? 30 people were arrested and 8 law enforcement officials suspended. That does not seem like the "government is on their side and no one in their country really condemning them" as you stated!

Do you really believe that? Is this why some in the West, here, are needed to do the attacking because no one is doing it over there? If that is what you believe rest easy because dialogue is occuring in that society.

The day after there was more trouble with more mob action and arrests.

Quote

HYDERABAD:
A day after people lynched a man for allegedly desecrating the Holy Quran, protests were held in villages and towns of Dadu – not against the murder but to condemn the arrests made by police in the case.

“An undeclared curfew has been enforced,” said a resident of Seeta village, who belongs to the Solangi community. “Majority of the men who were involved in the attack have fled their homes, leaving women, children and elders behind. Many have even left with their families.”

Hundreds of women staged a demonstration in Seeta village, where the incident took place. They accused the police of “violating the sanctity of their homes during their indiscriminate raids.”

“They are punishing the whole village for the acts of a handful of people,” shouted Yasmeen Channa at the protest.

Residents of Seeta and Seeta Nandhi villages, which have a population of around 7,000 people, stormed the Raho Dero police station on Friday morning where the man accused of blasphemy was locked up. He was thrown out from the first floor of the station, beaten up and burnt to death.

http://tribune.com.p...made-by-police/

Why do I see a valiant society struggling to achieve progress? Why do I see change and dialogue occuring there?

There is more read on, they arrested a total of 39 people, all for the original incident.

Then they arrested 6 more for inciting the mob to protest those arrests.

They even arrested the peshimam and moazin of the mosque!

Quote

While the protesters accused police of arresting hundreds of residents, Dadu SSP Usman Ghani said that with the nine arrests on Saturday, a total of 39 suspects have been put behind the bars. He told The Express Tribune that police produced over two dozen suspects who were arrested yesterday in the local court to obtain their remand.

The SSP also claimed that six persons who had incited the mob and later led them to the police station have been arrested. “They have no affiliation with any political or religious group,” he said, refusing to disclose their identities.

According to villagers, the peshimam and moazin of Usman Memon mosque – where the victim had allegedly burnt the copies of the Holy Quran while spending a night – are among those arrested.

Police nominated 200 unknown people in an FIR registered under sections 302 and 353 of the Pakistan Penal Code. In a separate FIR, SHO Baharduddin Keerio and seven other policemen have been charged for negligence. Police have been unable to identify the deceased so far.

At a separate protest in Sita Road town, located some eight kilometres from the two villages, demonstrators stressed more on finding out the identity of the deceased than condemning his murder. Led by local political, social and trade representatives, they demanded immediate release of the arrested people, a halt of police crackdown and disclosure of the identity of the alleged blasphemer. “The police have gone on a rampage,” said Sunni Tehreek’s leader, Syed Tameer Shah while addressing the protesters. “They are victimising entire villages for the acts of just 15 to 20 men.” They warned that they would carry their protests to other towns and cities if police did not stop the crackdown.

http://tribune.com.p...made-by-police/

You think their society is not struggling but at the same time that all this is occuring there are people standing up, even at the risk of being bombed, they are dying for their struggle to make Pakistan a better place for all.

Look at what happened just Friday and Saturday there.

Quote

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A suicide bomber in Pakistan killed nine people, including a provincial government official at a political rally held Saturday by a party that has opposed the Taliban, officials said.

The rally in Peshawar, the capital of northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, was held by the Awami National Party, whose members have been repeatedly targeted by the Taliban.

Among the dead was Bashir Bilour, the second most senior member of the provincial ­Cabinet, said Ghulam Ahmed Bilour, the politician’s brother and federal railways minister.

Quote

An angry mob of more than 200 people then broke into the police station in the southern town of Dadu and took the ­accused man, who they say was under questioning. Deen said police tried their best to save the man’s life, but were unable to stop the furious crowd.

Quote

Also Saturday, Pakistan’s Dunya TV broadcast an undated video purporting to show a German aid worker abducted in Pakistan 11 months ago urging authorities to meet his captors’ demands, warning that otherwise they could kill him within days.

Quote

In southwestern Pakistan late Friday, gunmen killed 11 Pakistanis and Afghans who were trying to cross into neighboring Iran to travel on to ­Europe as illegal immigrants, said local government official Zubair Ahmed. The shooting took place in Sunsar town in Baluchistan Province, he said.

Quote

‘‘Terrorism has engulfed our whole society,’’ said Hussain. ‘‘They are targeting our bases, our mosques, our bazaars, public meetings, and our security checkpoints.’’

http://bostonglobe.c...tnHM/story.html

Now a final update on the incident in Dadu.

Quote

Usman Ghani, the district’s senior police superintendent, said that he had suspended the official in charge of the police station and filed administrative charges against seven other officers for negligence. He said that charges had been filed against 1,000 people believed to have participated in the mob action and that 150 people had been arrested. Little was known about the victim or what motive he was thought to have had for burning the Koran, if he did so.

Blasphemy is a capital crime in Pakistan, and it is a highly emotional issue for the deeply conservative country. Calls for repealing or revising the blasphemy laws have been met with strong resistance from religious leaders, and two prominent advocates of changing the laws were assassinated last year.

http://www.nytimes.c...e-say.html?_r=0

Also a side note some debris fell from the sky on Dadu in November.

Quote

Fear and bewilderment overtook some parts of Dadu district after the mysterious objects fell on a number of villages late on Wednesday, the Dawn newspaper had reported.

http://dawn.com/2012...v-missile-ispr/

The next story reveals the type of relationship that the national government has with the police and villagers. Not even the local police and villagers seem to have good communication. Improving this is important for change.

Quote

Police sources said the pieces weighed between two to 180kg, adding that all of them are yet to be recovered from the villages. No one was harmed in the incident. The debris reportedly fell in the villages of Haveli, Khazani, Shahak Lodhlani, Wazir Lund and Ahmed Lund in Dadu and Garo Jabal and Abu Bakar Brohi villages in the bordering Balochistan.


Abdul Nadeem Brohi, a resident of Garo Jabal village, said, “We were ploughing our land when we saw a heavy piece of iron falling down from the sky.” Garo Jabal village is where the heaviest piece of metal, weighing around 180 kg, had fallen.

According to reports, some villagers took away smaller pieces, which looked like burnt iron and rods. SHO Nazeer Mallah said that they failed to retrieve anything from the Haveli and Khazani villages.
Military officials could not be reached for their version.

http://dawn.com/2012...v-missile-ispr/

The more you begin to understand them, the truth, the reality of the region and situation they are in, you realize you cannot hate.

Understanding fosters acceptance. Condemnation from those who accept them is more valuable than condemnation from those who are merely bigoted.

Condemnation is warranted but not if channeled through religious, national, or any other type of bigotry. Have a  great morning.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[shadowhive]

I believe you, there is a very big problem in pretty much everything you post.

This mob murdered a man. That is wrong. So everyone here condemns them for their actions and the reasoning behind it. Yet every post you make you seem to beg people to 'understand' as if that makes it better. You tell them that we should not condemn these people for murder. Any critisim of the religion and society that allows such an act and condones is is hate to you.

I'm going to say in black and white what I think, in plain and simple terms so you can understand it and not twist it.

1: This mob murdered a man. That is wrong, just as it is wrong for any mob or person to commit an act of murder.
2: This murder was religiously motivated. Therefore the religion (or rather part of religion) must shoulder the blame.
3: Note that muslims do not HAVE to murder people, otherwise muslims in western countries would be doing it.
4: Why did I say the society is to blame? Because if this man as convicted of burning a book, there's a chance he'd be executed for it.

So, to be clear. I hate the mob for doing the murder. The hate is not targeted at the whole or religion or society, just the parts that were used to cause this to happen.

Now if this was a mob in our society, you would not be looking for excuses to use against those that condemned the action.

[The world needs you]

Likely Guy, on 23 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Burn your wife, or throw acid in her face. Not so illegal.
Burn the holy book, guilty or not, that'll give you a death sentence by mob.

Those priorities are screwed.

But the mob also committed illegal actions and there have been arrests made.

Maybe your understanding and characterization of their judicial system and society in general is screwed?

[The world needs you]

shadowhive, on 23 December 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I believe you, there is a very big problem in pretty much everything you post.

This mob murdered a man. That is wrong. So everyone here condemns them for their actions and the reasoning behind it. Yet every post you make you seem to beg people to 'understand' as if that makes it better. You tell them that we should not condemn these people for murder. Any critisim of the religion and society that allows such an act and condones is is hate to you.

I'm going to say in black and white what I think, in plain and simple terms so you can understand it and not twist it.

1: This mob murdered a man. That is wrong, just as it is wrong for any mob or person to commit an act of murder.
2: This murder was religiously motivated. Therefore the religion (or rather part of religion) must shoulder the blame.
3: Note that muslims do not HAVE to murder people, otherwise muslims in western countries would be doing it.
4: Why did I say the society is to blame? Because if this man as convicted of burning a book, there's a chance he'd be executed for it.

So, to be clear. I hate the mob for doing the murder. The hate is not targeted at the whole or religion or society, just the parts that were used to cause this to happen.

Now if this was a mob in our society, you would not be looking for excuses to use against those that condemned the action.

You quickly glossed over all the effort I placed in both of those posts.

Hate is wrong and part of the problem and judging from your previous posts that hate is not contained to "just the parts that were used to cause this to happen". The hate some have for those who are different is just a part too that contributes to things like this happening.

Does not matter if the incident is domestic or foreign.

In case you didn't read:

Understanding fosters acceptance. Condemnation from those who accept them is more valuable than condemnation from those who are merely bigoted.

Condemnation is warranted but not if channeled through religious, national, or any other type of bigotry. Have a  great morning.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[shadowhive]

I believe you, on 23 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

You quickly glossed over all the effort I placed in both of those posts.

Mostly because the first post didn't address my point and the second wasn't posted before I made that post.

Quote

Your hate is wrong and part of the problem and judging from your previous posts not contained to "just the parts that were used to cause this to happen". The hate you have is just a part too that contributes.

Does not matter if the incident is domestic or foreign.

In case you didn't read:

Understanding fosters acceptance. Condemnation from those who accept them is more valuable than condemnation from those who are merely bigoted.

Condemnation is warranted but not if channeled through religious, national, or any other type of bigotry. Have a  great morning.

I have a question for you and please, answer it plainly, no double speak.

Why is it wrong to you to condemn murderers? Because that is what I am hearing from you and that is the big problem with your posts. You turn the condemnation of murderers into something that it is not. Why?

'Understanding' does not change that this mob murdered a man. It does not change that his life as lost, nor does it excuse it.

Also as to the second post, ok there's a lot of information there, but it does not change the deserved condemnation I have for the mob and their actions.

Edited by shadowhive, 23 December 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[The world needs you]

Understanding fosters acceptance which leads to growth and change.

In response to your specific question: condemnation is warranted.

It is the context of that condemnation as well as the context of what is being condemned that defines if the condemnation is healthy or not.

Some are quick to jump to attacking their society or disrespecting what others find holy such as suggesting more burning of sacred texts. In the context of the current political environment such suggestions are not helpful but quite the opposite.

All my comments are counter to such sentiment. That has nothing to do with condemning the murder. The two are not the same.

Understanding leads to change so it doesn't keep happening.

Now to me the most important aspect of this story is how that part of Pakistan treats the mentally ill. The mentally ill should be treated better. But change on that front will be very slow as no one is even questioning this aspect of the issue.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Sick and very sad to do that over a holy book..