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First Love Child of Human, Neanderthal Found?

human/neanderthal hybrid interbred

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#46    DieChecker

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

View PostEverdred, on 01 April 2013 - 04:47 AM, said:

First of all, we don't know if there are no maternal ancestors.  We haven't typed every single person yet, and we've only typed a fraction of Neanderthal remains.

But we needn't expect Neanderthal mtDNA to persist given the obvious possibility of genetic drift removing it from the gene pool.
A large enough sample of humans have been sampled worldwide for various medical reasons that statistically one should have shown up by now.

In the US alone, probably 5+ million military and former military personnel have their DNA on file, and probably about the same number of convicted criminals have done the same. Worldwide there has to be well over 100 million peoples DNA on file, and not a single one has neanderthal mDNA, or it would have made worldwide news.

I think the likelyhood of every single female line of neanderthal mDNA disappearing once it had been established as very small. I'm not even sure Genetic Drift would even come into the equation here. The female line would still pass down a unmistakably different mDNA line.

The only way to end a mDNA line is for every female of that line to die without having children.

Edited by DieChecker, 01 April 2013 - 05:08 AM.

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#47    Everdred

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 05:13 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

A large enough sample of humans have been sampled worldwide for various medical reasons that statistically one should have shown up by now.

In the US alone, probably 5+ million military and former military personnel have their DNA on file, and probably about the same number of convicted criminals have done the same. Worldwide there has to be well over 100 million peoples DNA on file, and not a single one has neanderthal mDNA, or it would have made worldwide news.

I think the likelyhood of every single female line of neanderthal mDNA disappearing once it had been established as very small. I'm not even sure Genetic Drift would even come into the equation here.

Statistics is fun, but imperfect.  If there's only one person left with Neanderthal mtDNA then we won't find it until we've typed that person.

But genetic drift is definitely in play.  Neanderthal interbreeding was obviously relatively rare since the overall genetic input is low, so that means Neanderthal mtDNA would have never been particularly common, even in the Upper Paleolithic.  So any time a woman with Neanderthal mtDNA doesn't have a daughter, that's a dead line.  And since there weren't many initial lines, it's easy for the Neanderthal mtDNA component to disappear from the AMH population.


#48    DieChecker

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:35 PM

View PostEverdred, on 01 April 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Statistics is fun, but imperfect.  If there's only one person left with Neanderthal mtDNA then we won't find it until we've typed that person.

But genetic drift is definitely in play.  Neanderthal interbreeding was obviously relatively rare since the overall genetic input is low, so that means Neanderthal mtDNA would have never been particularly common, even in the Upper Paleolithic.  So any time a woman with Neanderthal mtDNA doesn't have a daughter, that's a dead line.  And since there weren't many initial lines, it's easy for the Neanderthal mtDNA component to disappear from the AMH population.
I thought that genetic drift is a either-or kind of thing. If you have two variations, one might eventually take over completely. But, the mDNA always comes from the female, so once a line with neanderthal mDNA was established, every single decendant is going to have that mDNA to some degree. Random mutation will likely cause differences over time, but not enough to make a neanderthal mDNA look like a HS mDNA. Anyone who was decended from a female neanderthal would immediately be noticed by anyone looking at their mDNA.

Though I have to agree, till every person on Earth is genetically tested, there will be a chance there is someone with mDNA from neanderthal... I just think with the worldwide sample sizes we have, such is unlikely. It is kind of like bigfoot, in that until every tree is chopped down and all tall grass mowed, it is not known if he is hiding out there somewhere... but statistics says he is, by a large percentage, not there.

Edited by DieChecker, 01 April 2013 - 07:37 PM.

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#49    goodconversations

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:43 PM

Neanderthals' large eyes 'caused their demise

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=244511


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#50    Copasetic

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:52 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I thought that genetic drift is a either-or kind of thing. If you have two variations, one might eventually take over completely. But, the mDNA always comes from the female, so once a line with neanderthal mDNA was established, every single decendant is going to have that mDNA to some degree.

No. mtDNA is only passed through a maternal lineage. So a female can still have offspring (males) and loose the lineage. Because even if the male offspring father children the mtDNA from them will not be passed on. So very likely there were female with N-mtDNA in your lineage, they just had son's at some point and that DNA can be lost.

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Though I have to agree, till every person on Earth is genetically tested, there will be a chance there is someone with mDNA from neanderthal... I just think with the worldwide sample sizes we have, such is unlikely. It is kind of like bigfoot, in that until every tree is chopped down and all tall grass mowed, it is not known if he is hiding out there somewhere... but statistics says he is, by a large percentage, not there.

With various groups sharing only upto 4% of DNA with Neanderthals, the likelihood that mtDNA survived is very low (explained above with the sons).


#51    Everdred

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:55 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 01 April 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I thought that genetic drift is a either-or kind of thing. If you have two variations, one might eventually take over completely. But, the mDNA always comes from the female, so once a line with neanderthal mDNA was established, every single decendant is going to have that mDNA to some degree. Random mutation will likely cause differences over time, but not enough to make a neanderthal mDNA look like a HS mDNA. Anyone who was decended from a female neanderthal would immediately be noticed by anyone looking at their mDNA.

Though I have to agree, till every person on Earth is genetically tested, there will be a chance there is someone with mDNA from neanderthal... I just think with the worldwide sample sizes we have, such is unlikely. It is kind of like bigfoot, in that until every tree is chopped down and all tall grass mowed, it is not known if he is hiding out there somewhere... but statistics says he is, by a large percentage, not there.

Genetic drift is just a change in frequency of a particular sequence of DNA (be it a gene/allele or just haplogroup markers) in a population.  So we can imagine a population of UP humans in Europe with a small percentage (say 10%) Neanderthal mtDNA.  Over some thousands of years, certain individuals leave that population and join another, new individuals join that population, certain individuals in that population are more reproductively successful, and certain individuals have few or no children.  The population will now have different percentages of various mtDNA haplogroups.  We would probably expect the Neanderthal mtDNA percentage to decrease in this population for various reasons, either because the migrants into the population lacked the Neanderthal mtDNA, or because there was some degree of natural and/or sexual selection against those carrying the Neanderthal mtDNA.

Now with 30+ thousand years of that occurring, and with the reality of agriculture and exploding human populations and migration, plus outgrowths of that population increase like war and plagues, there is a high potential for significant genetic drift, including the completely loss of certain mtDNA haplogroups, especially those already initially scarce in the UP.


#52    DieChecker

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:37 AM

View PostCopasetic, on 01 April 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

No. mtDNA is only passed through a maternal lineage. So a female can still have offspring (males) and loose the lineage. Because even if the male offspring father children the mtDNA from them will not be passed on. So very likely there were female with N-mtDNA in your lineage, they just had son's at some point and that DNA can be lost.

With various groups sharing only upto 4% of DNA with Neanderthals, the likelihood that mtDNA survived is very low (explained above with the sons).
Thanks for making that more clear Copasetic. :nw: :tu:

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#53    DieChecker

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:45 AM

View PostEverdred, on 01 April 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Genetic drift is just a change in frequency of a particular sequence of DNA (be it a gene/allele or just haplogroup markers) in a population.  So we can imagine a population of UP humans in Europe with a small percentage (say 10%) Neanderthal mtDNA.  Over some thousands of years, certain individuals leave that population and join another, new individuals join that population, certain individuals in that population are more reproductively successful, and certain individuals have few or no children.  The population will now have different percentages of various mtDNA haplogroups.  We would probably expect the Neanderthal mtDNA percentage to decrease in this population for various reasons, either because the migrants into the population lacked the Neanderthal mtDNA, or because there was some degree of natural and/or sexual selection against those carrying the Neanderthal mtDNA.

Now with 30+ thousand years of that occurring, and with the reality of agriculture and exploding human populations and migration, plus outgrowths of that population increase like war and plagues, there is a high potential for significant genetic drift, including the completely loss of certain mtDNA haplogroups, especially those already initially scarce in the UP.
I think that is the whole point, you can't have 10% neanderthal mDNA. It is the mothers mDNA, and so you have neanderthal mDNA or you don't. There is not 50/50 or fractions in mDNA. At least not as I understand it.

There obviously can be mutations going forward, but those would still have a neanderthal mDNA as the origin. Probably obviously so.

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#54    Everdred

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:42 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 02 April 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

I think that is the whole point, you can't have 10% neanderthal mDNA. It is the mothers mDNA, and so you have neanderthal mDNA or you don't. There is not 50/50 or fractions in mDNA. At least not as I understand it.

There obviously can be mutations going forward, but those would still have a neanderthal mDNA as the origin. Probably obviously so.

Sorry, I meant 10% of the hypothetical population had Neanderthal mtDNA.


#55    DieChecker

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 02:50 AM

Yeah. I can agree that the percentage of the population can rise and fall, but for it to disappear completely, over an area the size of Asia and Europe seems unlikely. Possible, but not likely.

I see how you are refering to Genetic Drift now.....

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#56    Parsec

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:50 PM

View PostAshiene, on 29 March 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

So your racist remark is referring to Neanderthal females being stereotyped as "ugly"?

They aren't stereotyped as ugly, they were indeed ugly, at least from our point of view.
I borrow a definition R. Dawkins wrote "Where we have sexual reproduction a species can be objectively defined as a group of organisms which reproduce sexually amongst themselves but don't reproduce with members of other species."

Ashiene, would you mate with a gorilla, or do you find it sexually attractive? I guess your answer is "no". This is because you don't recognize the gorilla as a suitable mate for reproduction, since you belong to two different species.
It's called the "Specific Mate Recognition System".

The same goes for Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis: since we belong to two different species, we don't feel attracted by each other.
We're not so distant genetically and morphologically talking, but we're still far enough to find Neanderthal women "ugly".
At least, in theory.


View PostAshiene, on 30 March 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

How would you feel if an African (who has no Neanderthal genes) came up to a Caucasian/Asian and said "Your mom is ugly, only a drunk man would bed her"? That is exactly what that post was trying to say. Since Caucasians and Asians have Neanderthal genes, Neanderthals are one of our parents, and insulting them is like insulting our own mothers!

Your metaphor is incorrect. As far as I know, we all still belong to the same species, so Africans aren't different from Caucasians or Asians. We Caucasians can have an higher precentage of mDNA in our genes, but it doesn't matter, this doesn't make us different from Africans. It's only a matter of time, and it will be blunted thanks to gene flow.
Following your reasoning, Homo Heidelbergensis is our parent too (better, our grandparent), so we can't say that it was ugly? Are we insulting our granma?
What about granny Ergaster? As beautiful as the full moon in a clear night too?


#57    DKO

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:38 AM

It's pathetic to try and turn a joke about a neanderthal into a racist remark.

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#58    minera

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:48 PM

The neanderthal wax figure is shown as cross eyed and brutish. We can speculate on their social skills and group interactions but it is not necessarily fact. If you go by looks and behavior we probably have more neanderthals than homo sapiens in today's population. Also why are there so many diverse groups with different physical appearance in today's homo sapiens? Why so many genetic variations?


#59    DieChecker

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

View Postminera, on 14 April 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Also why are there so many diverse groups with different physical appearance in today's homo sapiens? Why so many genetic variations?
Culturally specific aesthetic values. If one group likes tall men, then that group will end up having more tall men. If another group values paler/darker skin tones, or green eyes, then that skin tone or eye color will come to be more and more represented in that group.

But, like dogs, horses and other animals that are bred for looks, humans are still humans, regardless of how they appear.

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#60    Nefer-Ankhe

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

Well it was inevitable that these species would interbreed...





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