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Skeptical Morality


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#46    Jinxdom

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:32 AM

So your saying that speech is the only foundation for language? What about sign language, body language. Is that not a language?

Even prairie dogs have a complex language. Using adjectives and what not speaking to each other.

Animals don't need to go but think of the children they just do it. The mother of the kittens died due to a coyote and you know what happened all of the other cats at my parents place took care of them and still do. Is that not empathy? I mean one night after a long day of work I didn't notice I had dirt on my nose. Do you know what one of the cats did? Came up and cleaned it off me. How much more empathic can you get?

Tools is a hard thing to define as well. If you use anything other then your body to do something that could be in fact considered a tool. Seen a cat knock over a box to use it as a step ladder to get to something it wants. Only reason why they don't open doors when they want to go out is because of thumbs. (At one point they were able to open doors because it wasn't a knob and they figured out how to use it, had to install a different type of knob)

Your argument is like saying an apple is just an apple, it can't be a food, or a target, or a toy, or a fruit.

For everything you post as intelligence I can post a counter example of that in wildlife. This stuff is basic.


#47    Amy the Mighty

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 05:54 AM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 04 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Controllable IF given time to think and analyze the situation. Time is the key here. When you got anger, your brain don't automatically say "ah, angry is bad, I shouldn't go too far". Some people only realized that what they've done from anger is wrong hours or days after. I'm not arguing about the capacity of controlling the emotions on a daily basis. But it's clear that at the given time, lots of people will act on their emotions.

When I'm angry, my brain usually kicks in and takes over straight away. I know that if I lose my **** at someone, the outcome is not usually a good one. After a childhood full of practice, this has become the default action.

There are going to be moments that take a person completely off-guard, and it's necessary to respond without the chance to analyse the situation. Grown-ups need to know how to control their emotions, without letting those emotions make them a "prison b****." I find no greater turn-off, than a man who lacks control over their anger, especially when they act on that anger. There is nothing respectable or manly about a man who gets into a punch-on because his feelings got hurt. When you haven't gt the balls or the common sense to hold your **** together, you are not worthy of the title "grown-up."


#48    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:38 AM

View PostAmy the Mighty, on 08 November 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

I don't think that morality is an entity of itself. It's a lens through which we examine our thoughts and actions, and a framework for us to choose our actions. It is not a separate agent from us, and to place it on a pedestal, misses the point.

I think the term "morality," is very loaded with religious overtones, and I don't normally hear non-religious people using it. Non-religious people are often pressed to justify their decisions and actions against a standard of "What God Approves Of." Especially if the decision/action differs from what is traditionally the norm, and especially when the decision/action relates to issues of conception and mortality. I understand that non-religious people are working against centuries of religious monopoly on what is Right Behaviour, and I understand that they are subjected more often to demands to justify themselves, which the religious are usually exempt from. When you feel judged, you often feel it necessary to justify yourself.

Morality is an externally-imposed framework to guide our behaviour and decisions. It works best when everyone agrees about the rules. When non-religious people make decisions, there is often a sense that they must prove the worthiness of their decisions/actions by substantiating them with an externally-imposed framework, even when no externally imposed framework is necessary. I don't think that non-religious people hold onto morality as some kind of separate, sacred entity. It is a tool to be used, not an object to be worshipped.

Some good points here but morality like ethics is the realm of philosophy not religion. Human morality really has nothing to do, inherently, with religious beliefs. Atheists are just as moral as believers, for example.

Second, ethics and morality should not be externally devised or imposed values. They should be individually realised and thought through. Every person should develop basic value lines, philosophical positions, and thus basic consructions of what is ethical and moral. In this way they will lie at the core of their being. They will be strongly held and form the basis of a person's actions, beause they ARE their own strongest values, and can be defended logically, philosophically, intellectually and spiritually.

There are three forms of morality . Individual, social and "universal". Individual are a person's own, core values. These may or may not conflict with the values of the society a person lives in.  For example my society has an ethical belief tha t a woman has  right to abortion on demand i disagree and believe that while abortion should be leaga and paid for from  medicare it must have limitations whic place some recognition on the right sof unborn children Inmy ethicla framework the unborn require protections from the living because they cannot argue for, or protect, them selves.

But i agree with many of the other common values of my society.

My society sees alcohol as a social lubricant. I see it as a social evil, which generates great cost and harm, directly contributing to over half the accidents,  injuries, deaths and assaults etc in our society. But because i value freedoms and democracy i would not atemt to ipose prohibition despite the tragic costs I do argue for education on the dangers of alcohol and restrictions on advertising etc like we have on cigarettes.

Different societies can have very differnt ethical and moral values.

Finally, so called universal moralities are supposedly those held by all humans, like the right to life, but in fact, while common across the globe, they are not universal.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 November 2012 - 10:42 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#49    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 08 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

So your saying that speech is the only foundation for language? What about sign language, body language. Is that not a language?

Even prairie dogs have a complex language. Using adjectives and what not speaking to each other.

Animals don't need to go but think of the children they just do it. The mother of the kittens died due to a coyote and you know what happened all of the other cats at my parents place took care of them and still do. Is that not empathy? I mean one night after a long day of work I didn't notice I had dirt on my nose. Do you know what one of the cats did? Came up and cleaned it off me. How much more empathic can you get?

Tools is a hard thing to define as well. If you use anything other then your body to do something that could be in fact considered a tool. Seen a cat knock over a box to use it as a step ladder to get to something it wants. Only reason why they don't open doors when they want to go out is because of thumbs. (At one point they were able to open doors because it wasn't a knob and they figured out how to use it, had to install a different type of knob)

Your argument is like saying an apple is just an apple, it can't be a food, or a target, or a toy, or a fruit.

For everything you post as intelligence I can post a counter example of that in wildlife. This stuff is basic.

Human level language and human level thought process are co-dependent and evolved this way. Our thought is a function of our language, and our language is a function of our thoughts.

Sign languages etc are just the same. It is not SPEECH which is critical, but language. Its complexity, sophistication, symbolic connections, abilty to identify and construct abstract concepts etc. No the habits of cats do not demonstrate emapthy merely evoved social behaviours. Empathy despite the arguments of some is NOT an evolved social behaviour. it is a product of the level of our spaience and self awareness. it has to be consciously chosen to be empathy.and had to be an act which HAS no social benefit or feed back for the person who demonstrates it. ALL "tribal/herd " animal behaviours are a result of codependency such as mutual grooming or the distribution of food  We might attribute them to empathy in other animals because we would do the same from empathym but in other animals it is not. It is a result of biological or social evolution.

Heres the thing. A non human mother can.t choose to love its child or not to love it. It is condioned to care for it and nless the child is unlikely to survive for some reason, will always care for it and protect it But a human mother can consciously walk away form their child, treat it badly, abuse it etc., all the time knowing how that will affect the child  Heck a human mother can make a conscious choice to abort their child. That ability to chose or reject love, and indeed their child for other self aware reasons, like self interest, greed, fear etc., as a conscious choice, defines human nature at its best and at its worst.

The dividing line can best be seen betwen humans and other primates About 100000 years ago (this is not a precise  scientific dating)humans were pretty much like other primates are now, but several things happened all involving our mental capacity. For example we began to understand the difference between being alive and being dead and really thinking about that We began burying our dead with ceremony and respect. We became aware of self and other, but also that, while separate, we are similar. We know that the pain we feel is exactly the same as pain others feel.

We then went on to develp other abilities like the abilty to delay gratification through self awareness that we can  have it later. This involves an intellectual understanding of the linear nature of time and of the sequential nature of events and cause and effect. I could go on.Very few, if any, non human animals have ever demonstrated anything like these abilities, although there is one ape who stores up rocks (or it may be food) to throw at other apes later on. Now that IS approaching human level thought and behaviour. A lot of the adolescents i teach are very similar.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#50    Jinxdom

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:30 PM

Seriously look in to the prairie dogs language. It's complex.

If animals couldn't delay self-gratification they wouldn't be able to store for the winter.

We are a tribe/herd animal.

Everything you posted besides the whole choosing to abort a child I can literally post examples or actually seen animals doing as well. Even then I wouldn't be surprised an animal or two would go out and eat some herb that would force a miscarriage.

Growing up and working with various animals all my life I've seen these attributes.

Oh well agree to disagree then.


#51    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:51 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 08 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Seriously look in to the prairie dogs language. It's complex.

If animals couldn't delay self-gratification they wouldn't be able to store for the winter.

We are a tribe/herd animal.

Everything you posted besides the whole choosing to abort a child I can literally post examples or actually seen animals doing as well. Even then I wouldn't be surprised an animal or two would go out and eat some herb that would force a miscarriage.

Growing up and working with various animals all my life I've seen these attributes.

Oh well agree to disagree then.
Yeah  Didn't mean to get argumentative, but i naturally am.  LOL

A lot of people think it's a christian belief thing about dominating the natural world. But in my case i see myself as a steward of nature and an integral part of gaea. Becuase I have the abilities to, I do all I can to protect the rights of animals and the environment, on a local, national, and international level.
Iv'e never met an animal arguing for my rights, but one day :whistle:

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 November 2012 - 07:53 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#52    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:04 AM

Mankind never has and never will have dominion  over all.....including the natural world.

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#53    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 09 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Mankind never has and never will have dominion  over all.....including the natural world.

Actually  it pretty well does already, and is gaining more absolute dominion every moment. Which is the cause of most of our problems with the natural environment. We have great power, and little wisdom.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#54    C235

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:44 AM

Some people uphold morality from the fear of law & the Chaos it will bring to their peaceful life but some people need a God, something higher they can look up to.


#55    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:47 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 November 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Actually  it pretty well does already

No it doesn't

Examples...  Can man prevent  IE - A great white from eating other fish?..  Can man prevent other animals in the wild from killing and eating each other ? Can man stop the biggest killer on earth  aka  the mosquito ?   Doubt it.. So no mankind seriously does not hold dominion over all

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 November 2012 - 09:48 AM.

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#56    FlyingAngel

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:07 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 09 November 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

No it doesn't

Examples...  Can man prevent  IE - A great white from eating other fish?..  Can man prevent other animals in the wild from killing and eating each other ? Can man stop the biggest killer on earth  aka  the mosquito ?   Doubt it.. So no mankind seriously does not hold dominion over all
You are right. All man can do is either kill or cage an animal. Man don't have the power to mentally change the mind of an animal.
If killing, is Mr Walker's definition of domination...

They are probably weaker in term of 1v1 fight, but if talking about hunting and assassination, it's usually them that attack us first in a wild forest

Edited by FlyingAngel, 10 November 2012 - 12:08 PM.


#57    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

People misunderstand the word dominion. It doesnt mean to have absolute control over, just to have "authority over" Eg all the comonwealth states were once dominions of great britain.

By virtue of our self aware sapience, we have that dominion over the rest of nature. We dont have a moral or ethical right to such dominion, but it exists in practical terms because of our comparative power,  via the combination of our intelligence and our advanced tool making abilities. Humans put other animals in cages, not the other way round, hence we have dominion.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#58    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:09 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:


By virtue of our self aware sapience, we have that dominion over the rest of nature.

No we do not have dominion over the rest of nature, only people and the land / countries we live in.

Quote

     Humans put other animals in cages, not the other way round, hence we have dominion.              

See paragraph below..

Sir David Attenborough (“Charles Darwin And The Tree Of Life” BBC 2009) Darwin’s great insight revolutionised the way in which we see the world. We now understand why there are so many different species. Why they are distributed the way they are around the world, and why their bodies and our bodies are shaped in the way that they are. Because we understand that bacteria evolve, we can devise methods of dealing with the diseases that they cause, and because we can disentangle the complex relationships between animals and plants in a natural community, we can foresee some of the consequences when we start to interfere with those communities. But above all, Darwin has shown us that we are not apart from the natural world, we do not have dominion over it. We are subject to it’s laws and processes, as are all other animals on Earth to which, indeed, we are related.  http://unbound.co.uk...-of-man/excerpt

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#59    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:12 PM

View PostFlyingAngel, on 10 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

You are right. All man can do is either kill or cage an animal. Man don't have the power to mentally change the mind of an animal.
If killing, is Mr Walker's definition of domination...

They are probably weaker in term of 1v1 fight, but if talking about hunting and assassination, it's usually them that attack us first in a wild forest

To add, man doesn't have the power to prevent a natural disaster either.. And Man cannot possibly  catch and cage all animals..More so those in the sea..  We can only control so much, but not all

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#60    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:56 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 10 November 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

No we do not have dominion over the rest of nature, only people and the land / countries we live in.



See paragraph below..

Sir David Attenborough (“Charles Darwin And The Tree Of Life” BBC 2009) Darwin’s great insight revolutionised the way in which we see the world. We now understand why there are so many different species. Why they are distributed the way they are around the world, and why their bodies and our bodies are shaped in the way that they are. Because we understand that bacteria evolve, we can devise methods of dealing with the diseases that they cause, and because we can disentangle the complex relationships between animals and plants in a natural community, we can foresee some of the consequences when we start to interfere with those communities. But above all, Darwin has shown us that we are not apart from the natural world, we do not have dominion over it. We are subject to it’s laws and processes, as are all other animals on Earth to which, indeed, we are related.  http://unbound.co.uk...-of-man/excerpt
Unfortunately that is wrong We DO have power over the naturla world we are NOT subject to its laws and processes if we dont accept the consequences of them. At the moment, in large part, we are using that power to destroy it, but the power aso can be used to improve on nature and to restore the harm done.

Attenborough is pointing out that there are consequences for how we treat the world. But that doesnt lessen our power. It just means we should use it well and wisely. Attenborough is pointing out that we should live sustainably within the worlds ecosystem, Quite right, but we are not, because we have the power not to. The consequences of dominion or power are not always good. Dominion does not mean, for example total control, just power and authority. We HAVE the power via our technology, and only we can limit  the extent of our AUTHORITY over nature.
Slave owners once had dominion over their slaves That didnt make it right, or create positive outcomes, and sometimes the slaves rose up and bit back. Nonetheless the slave owners had dominion over the slaves via physical power and legal authority..

Edited by Mr Walker, 11 November 2012 - 03:00 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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