264 replies to this topic

[Clobhair-cean]

"Atl" is Nahuatl and not Maya, I even doubt that this combination of phonemes exists in any of the Mayan languages. It's like confusing French with German.


And the pyramid is one of the most basic buildings, and the easiest way to build something tall and stable. You really don't need outside help to invent it. Not that there is too much similarity between the Egyptian and American pyramids anyway.

[Qoais]

Abe, in your op, are you speaking specifically about the Maya or the possibility of any of the American peoples going East?

I need to ask a question.  Is it true that the Aztec, Inca, Maya etc., don't grow facial hair?  Because if they don't, then they wouldn't be the ancestors of the Sumerians we know and love would they?  Because THEY have an abundance of facial hair and their beards are tight waves.  At least that's how they're depicted.

[Abramelin]

Clobhair-cean, on 20 February 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

People don't tend to undertake extremely expensive and quite probably deadly expeditions just for the helluvit, at least not before modern times.

And the peoples living in the Pacific travelled far greater distances with no land in sight for thousands of miles. OK, maybe they were just looking for a new home, but they did it anyway, not expecting and only hoping to succeed.

The Polynesians are a special case, because they were an island-hopping seafaring civilisation. The Maya, on the other hand were a "terrestrial" urban civilization.



Just because the ships are capable of doing something it doesn't mean that they did it.



I'm also not sure if Kukulcan is associated with Tlapallan, of which I've only heard in a Nahua context before.

You keep telling me people do only sane things.

Where have you lived the last few decades??

-

And the Mayans did travel between islands in the Caribbean. They did coast-hopping, and island-hopping. Read the pfd files, pls.

Oh, and Tlapallan is what the Aztecs borrowed from the Mayans; so its no surprise you know it only from Nahua.

-

About those ships: I am just saying it is a possibility. You seem to be vehemently against it for god knows what reason.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 February 2010 - 02:22 AM.

[Abramelin]

marabod, on 20 February 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:

The OP article mentions some large size cargo ships, but mostly talks about large canoes powered by men on the ores. Did Maya know the sails and harnessing of wind power? Using just a manpower to cross the ocean in its widest part is not appearing as possible as the ships capacity is not sufficient to carry the needed food/water stocks for the crew. Vikings and Polynesians had the sails on top of their manpower and their vessels or rafts were large enough to carry the needed stocks. William Willis certainly proved that Atlantic can be crossed by a single person, but he was also using the sails, not the paddles.

One can fantasise that in the times of Atlantis there was a trade existing between the Americas and the island empire, but such trade was hardly demanding for a large vessel size as the sea levels were low enough for much more islands to be along the trade rout, so it was rather a travel along the coast than across the ocean. This same trade could be enough for the tribes from both sides of the ocean to pick up the architectural idea of pyramids and establish a common name for the ocean itself, as Hellenic/Phoenician name "Atlantic" is the same as Maya were using, Atl (also being the general word for water). But this does not mean they were disembarking in Europe, as the European population of those days did not survive the Flood or at least had no memories of it or of any navigation at all, they were using the same primitive canoes themselves and were certainly related to American Indians, because they had a land bridge to America instead of Bering straight. And Egyptian records, as far as we know, were mentioning Americas but not the cultures, residing there.

OMG, this is NOT about Atlantis, ok??

And yes, the Mayans knew about AND used sails.

You won't get that from the PFDs I posted, but it is assumed that they also sailed from the west coast of Meso-America to Ecuador and Peru.

[Abramelin]

Please-Forgive-Me, on 20 February 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

That is a very good point.

It;s not. It's an old-fashioned, Eurocentic look on things.

[Abramelin]

jmccr8, on 20 February 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

Great topic for a thread Abramelin although I couldn't get two of the links to open for me.Man has always faced advercity in discovering new lands and man has been known to traverse great distances under harsh conditions to achieve his goals.Even in more recent times with space exploration there has been great risk.I look forward to seeing what information and discussion arises here.Thanks jmccr8

The first link is what the 2 other PDF links also show.

If you can open the first link, you have all the info you need. The PDFs are just a bit more clear for old eyes, lol.

[Abramelin]

Clobhair-cean, on 21 February 2010 - 01:08 AM, said:

"Atl" is Nahuatl and not Maya, I even doubt that this combination of phonemes exists in any of the Mayan languages. It's like confusing French with German.


And the pyramid is one of the most basic buildings, and the easiest way to build something tall and stable. You really don't need outside help to invent it. Not that there is too much similarity between the Egyptian and American pyramids anyway.

Who ever talked about that in this thread??

Pyramids? Atl??

Another is already talking about Atlantis... JFC...

[Abramelin]

Qoais, on 21 February 2010 - 01:14 AM, said:

Abe, in your op, are you speaking specifically about the Maya or the possibility of any of the American peoples going East?

I need to ask a question.  Is it true that the Aztec, Inca, Maya etc., don't grow facial hair?  Because if they don't, then they wouldn't be the ancestors of the Sumerians we know and love would they?  Because THEY have an abundance of facial hair and their beards are tight waves.  At least that's how they're depicted.

The native Americans *I* know don't have much if any facial hair (and I do know; the daughter of a couple was sitting on my lap while I was posting about all this - Aruba).

And with my OP I was NOT suggesting they were the ancestors of the hairy Sumerians, lol.


Jeesh, what's the matter with you people? If the Chinese visit us in Europe, does that mean that in the next decade we will all look like Chinese here??

I don't think so.

[Qoais]

Maybe I was reading too many things at once!!  I thought I just read that perhaps we're not giving credit where it's due - to the early Americans - for navigating the ocean.  That the Sumerians could be the descendants of people from the Americas. I know I read it in conjunction with this thread - maybe I was just researching stuff and came across it.  Oh well!

[lightly]

Ascension Island lies about halfway between S. America and Africa.  Plenty of fresh water and vegetation  so probably food....  and  animals?    Migrating birds might lead you right to it??
   There are other Islands on the Mid Atlantic ridge at different latitudes.. probably many more when the Ocean was lower, if that timeframe counts for anything ?   Who knows for SURE? .. but anyway.. pretty handy for a trans Atlanitic trip... from either direction?  .. if the currents would allow?  
 Atlantic ridge islands islandsjpg.jpg   99.45K   5 downloads    Ascension.jpg   8.83K   4 downloads

Edited by lightlyy, 21 February 2010 - 03:06 AM.

[jmccr8]

Abramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:31 AM, said:

The first link is what the 2 other PDF links also show.

If you can open the first link, you have all the info you need. The PDFs are just a bit more clear for old eyes, lol.

   Thanks Abramelin,
   I was able to open the first link and found it very interesting,thanks for your response.jmccr8

[Clobhair-cean]

Abramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:21 AM, said:

You keep telling me people do only sane things.

Where have you lived the last few decades??

We are not talking about the past few decades.

Abramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:21 AM, said:

And the Mayans did travel between islands in the Caribbean. They did coast-hopping, and island-hopping. Read the pfd files, pls.

Doing something and living something is vastly different. The Polynesians were a sea-based culture for whom heading off towards the next piece of land was the natural thing to do, because they've been living like that for hundreds of years. There was one single segment of the Mayan peoples who ventured onto the sea and even they weren't dependent on it.

All marine explorers came from nations with a strong naval tradition/culture. The Maya had no such thing.

Abramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:21 AM, said:

Oh, and Tlapallan is what the Aztecs borrowed from the Mayans; so its no surprise you know it only from Nahua.

Could you please prove this? I'm yet to see any connection between Tlapallan and Kukulkan.  

Abramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:27 AM, said:

Who ever talked about that in this thread??

Pyramids? Atl??

The guy who mentioned Atlantis.

Abramelin, on 21 February 2010 - 02:28 AM, said:

It;s not. It's an old-fashioned, Eurocentic look on things.

No. It's a realistic look on things. Exactly why is Eurocentric to say that Mayans had no absolutely reason to do something they did not do?


Oh, and could you please prove your statement that the Maya had sails?

[Qoais]

I think Sir Francis Drake, when describing the huge reed rafts of the Peruvians, mentioned they had sails.  I could be wrong though, as I so often am!

[Belial]

Click mE

[The Puzzler]

Cool thought Abe...how about that? Imagine if that was the case, I have never heard any mention of it ever. Googling gave very little. Maybe dna could show something. It would be funny I reckon and could answer many questions, maybe they didn't sail from the Med. at all, maybe the early cultures did sail east to Europe and Africa picking up the religious aspects of pyramids and other likenesses, then went back..haha, never to find any trace of their European and African voyages nor any real evidence from west to east sailing but many examples of culture similarities, that is a great thought and has entertained my mind for a while thinking of that implication...thanks Abe!  

Edited by The Puzzler, 21 February 2010 - 01:28 PM.