293 replies to this topic

[socrates.junior]

http://www.kentucky....sts-embody.html

I think this guy has an interesting point. What does everyone else think?

[Halfwolf]

I have never understood why some Atheists are so vocal about their disbelief. It's as if they are trying to convince believers to just drop GOD. I know some Athiests that really don't care what me or anybody else thinks about GOD just don't try and preach to them. I am a Christian but I don't try and convince anybody their is a GOD unless they ask questions. The fundamentalists say we are supposed to spread the Gospel. It says in the Bible to teach those who want to be taught and the ones that don't want to listen "dust off your shoes, turn and walk away.
  Some people just need to get over it, live and let live (both sides).

[Nik Xues]

Why are so many fundies vocal about their beleifs.

Simple everybody feels the need to be right. The stromger that urge the stronger the protest when opposition appears.

[socrates.junior]

Nik Xues, on 14 June 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Why are so many fundies vocal about their beleifs.

Simple everybody feels the need to be right. The stromger that urge the stronger the protest when opposition appears.

   Well, the point of the article is that atheists are doing the exact same thing. Read it.

[MARAB0D]

This is an American article! On the issue of Atheism and religions USA is minimum one century behind any European country and even many Asian countries, as these problems were existing in Europe some 100 years ago. Hence the local importance of this Dawkins dude, who makes money and popularity on himself being an Atheist - in some China or Poland no one would simply notice him, he is nothing in the sense that he cannot show any wisdom but only his useless disbelief in God. But certainly, the situation in USA places the Atheists on a front line, so, being surrounded by the religious loonies, they have to be aggressive in defending themselves - hence their vocalism. And I agree, that some American Atheists are no less ridiculous and archaic than the American Fundamentalists; it takes long time to settle such social contradictions as they have now, as the generations have to pass for the dust to settle.

Edited by MARAB0D, 14 June 2010 - 04:16 AM.

[Fernand0]

It's not about trying to convince religious people, it's about being assertive and the pen being mightier than the sword.



10 IF Pen > Sword THEN GOTO 20
20 Pen < Keyboard
30 END

edit
(quoted from that page)

Quote

I wish these atheists would venture, say, into a seminary library. They'd find tens of thousands of volumes written by thinkers great and obscure across two millennia.

They'd find works by scholars who take every word of the Bible literally and works by others who argue that most of the Scripture is made up and that Jesus said almost nothing attributed to him. They'd find every gradation between those extremes.

They'd find the musings of Christians who are pompous, exclusionary and delusional. They'd find Christians who are tolerant and humble and pillars of common sense.

They'd learn that Christians were the driving force behind the establishment of public schools and the abolition of slavery, just as, regrettably, other Christians launched the Crusades.

It was the secular North that abolished slavery in the USA and the world. I'm not going to quote scripture, but the Bible deals with the relation of slave and master and how the slave is to serve his master. Things such as the master will cut off the ear of a slave who is not subservient is what the Bible suggests should be done about slavery; not it's abolition. Either most of the religious people are ignorant of the Bible or they are assuming athiests are ignorant of the Bible and want to make false statements to prove invalid points. There are atheists and agnostics that know more about the Bible than a Christian or a Jew, and in my case that is the reason I am agnostic. Because I fully understand what it says, I know it's not something I should follow.

http://www.christian...ble-and-slavery

The South used as the foundation to uphold slavery, the Bible. The North also had Christians, but was secular.

Quote

They'd find Christians who are tolerant and humble and pillars of common sense.

I could go on and on as to why Creationism is nonsensical. I will only mention one obvious thing: every human on Earth has Neanderthal DNA mixed with the DNA of modern man. Is God a Neanderthal? We cannot be in the image of two beings that are a singular God.

Edited by Fernand0, 14 June 2010 - 05:47 AM.

[freeman88]

Fernand0, on 14 June 2010 - 04:47 AM, said:

It was the secular North that abolished slavery in the USA and the world. I'm not going to quote scripture, but the Bible deals with the relation of slave and master and how the slave is to serve his master. Things such as the master will cut off the ear of a slave who is not subservient is what the Bible suggests should be done about slavery; not it's abolition. Either most of the religious people are ignorant of the Bible or they are assuming athiests are ignorant of the Bible and want to make false statements to prove invalid points. There are atheists and agnostics that know more about the Bible than a Christian or a Jew, and in my case that is the reason I am agnostic. Because I fully understand what it says, I know it's not something I should follow.

Edited by freeman88, 14 June 2010 - 07:01 AM.

[Fernand0]

Note that I posted a link to a second opinion from a Christian. If I was trying to force my beliefs on others I would not have done so. He claims that we are in God's image at the very beginning of his article. That's where he is wrong according to DNA. If the Christians do not uphold Hebrew law, they would not have included the Old Testament in the Bible. It's as simple as that and no amount of apologetics changes that.

Edited by Fernand0, 14 June 2010 - 07:49 AM.

[freeman88]

i was merely agreeing

[JamieSymptom]

People like to think they have come to right conclusions. Forthright people will argue their points if they feel challenged or feel that they may change someone's mind. It doesn't matter if you are christian, atheist, buddhist, agnostic, muslim, whatever. Some people will argue the toss.

Does it make an atheistic viewpoint invalid if you share some personality characteristics with some of those whom you theologically oppose? Er, nope.

Besides, it's easy to ignore someone if you think they're talking rubbish.

Oh yeah, I was under the impression that Dawkins is British, not American? Mind you, he probably gets more discussion and controversy around his views in the US than he does here.

[Fernand0]

freeman88, on 14 June 2010 - 08:05 AM, said:

i was merely agreeing

Hebrew laws declaring slavery to be acceptable, along with their captivity in Babylon changing the practices of the criminals amongst them that broke Mosaic law, are the reason why any consideration for the humane treatment of slaves is one idea in theory and it's a totally different thing in practice.



edit

"But the Torah says slaves should be treated humanely.", as Jews say. Slavery should not be tolerated to begin with and is inhumane by it's very nature. So, Jews who accepted slavery and the Christians that accepted slavery after them did not cut off ears and noses, whip, hobble and rape slaves?

And the Babylonians didn't show the criminal element amongst Jews an example of what to do if they decide to break Mosaic law, right.

Edited by Fernand0, 14 June 2010 - 08:42 AM.

[Papagiorgio]

MARAB0D, on 14 June 2010 - 04:14 AM, said:

This is an American article! On the issue of Atheism and religions USA is minimum one century behind any European country and even many Asian countries, as these problems were existing in Europe some 100 years ago. Hence the local importance of this Dawkins dude, who makes money and popularity on himself being an Atheist - in some China or Poland no one would simply notice him, he is nothing in the sense that he cannot show any wisdom but only his useless disbelief in God. But certainly, the situation in USA places the Atheists on a front line, so, being surrounded by the religious loonies, they have to be aggressive in defending themselves - hence their vocalism. And I agree, that some American Atheists are no less ridiculous and archaic than the American Fundamentalists; it takes long time to settle such social contradictions as they have now, as the generations have to pass for the dust to settle.

The United States is not as full of religious loonies as everyone seems to believe. People are vocal because they want their 15 minutes of fame. Atheists are not on the front lines of some "War of Reason" against evil Fundie Christians all across the U.S. The overly religious nature of americans is a stereotype, and is used by the vocal atheists to get their 15 minutes of fame. Just like the anti christian complaints of the Fundies are used to get their 15 minutes of fame.

I'm just saying.

[Emma_Acid]

Halfwolf, on 14 June 2010 - 03:26 AM, said:

I have never understood why some Atheists are so vocal about their disbelief.

Because some people believe that religion does more harm than good, and recognise that a society based on faith and superstition doesn't work (with historical precedent*).

These people see that organised faith is inherently anti-progress and anti-science and has a nasty habit of being anti-humanist and anti-enlightenment.

It is also postulated that tolerance of moderate religion creates taboos around criticising faith's negative effects on society, which directly allows fundamentalism to flourish as it becomes protected by these taboos.

That's why.

*see things like Jews being burnt in 17th century Europe for spreading the plague, or children tortured for harbouring demons in modern Nigeria. Note that this is nothing to do with different faiths disagreeing with each other - this is what happens when society uses faith rather than reason as its bedrock.

Edited by Emma_Acid, 14 June 2010 - 01:33 PM.

[socrates.junior]

Look, slavery is not an exclusively Christian issue, people. And besides, what the writer of the article is referring to were the abolitionists, some of whom were definitely religiously motivated. Of course, some slaveholders admittedly did use their religion to justify their actions.

[socrates.junior]

Emma_Acid, on 14 June 2010 - 01:32 PM, said:

Because some people believe that religion does more harm than good, and recognise that a society based on faith and superstition doesn't work (with historical precedent*).

   Yes, because Communist governments, working without religion, have a great track record.

Quote

These people see that organised faith is inherently anti-progress and anti-science and has a nasty habit of being anti-humanist and anti-enlightenment.

   Well, sweeping generalizations are the way to go, I guess.  

Quote

It is also postulated that tolerance of moderate religion creates taboos around criticising faith's negative effects on society, which directly allows fundamentalism to flourish as it becomes protected by these taboos.

That's why.

   But isn't tolerance the watchword for "reason" as you put it? Without it, we'd be a bunch of bigoted, religious (oh noes,) mindless robots. Oh wait.

Quote

*see things like Jews being burnt in 17th century Europe for spreading the plague, or children tortured for harbouring demons in modern Nigeria. Note that this is nothing to do with different faiths disagreeing with each other - this is what happens when society uses faith rather than reason as its bedrock.

   Hurray, let's pick examples of times when religions causes problems. Then, for 200 points, we'll take Communist atrocities.