Kirk Cameron's "Saving Christmas"

[+Link of Hyrule]

Kirk Cameron: Don't drink the pagan 'Kool-Aid' about Christmas, historians 'don't know this stuff'

Actor-turned-fundamentalist activist Kirk Cameron this week urged Christians not to “drink the Kool-Aid” and accept what he said were lies that Christmas has its origins in pagan celebrations of the Winter Solstice.

During an interview with Christian Post to publicize his movie “Saving Christmas,” Cameron said that he hoped that people would come to understand that traditions like the Christmas tree were only about the birth of Jesus Christ.

“I’m making ‘Saving Christmas’ because I love Christmas, I love everything about it,” Cameron said. “I’m a sucker for all of it, and of course the nativity, and there’s a lot of people who really want to put a big wet blanket on the celebration.”

Source for further reading

Kirk must be trying to become a comedian, there's just no historical basis for his claims. I really do hate internet memes, but when I saw this my first thought was that there are two Kirk's who I know of, so let's see what the other Kirk has to think on this matter:

For the record, anyone interested in the trailer for this:

As a Christian, I'm all for evangelism, so in one sense I don't have a problem with it. But in another sense evangelism that is blatantly wrong is just going to make people less likely to accept it.

Besides, it makes the rest of us normal Christians appear stupid, so on that basis alone I declare my moral outrage at this Still a ways to go, but Merry Christmas all

~ PA

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Well, reading that link and Kirk Cameron has to say, I rolled my eyes. Did he said he had proof to his claims? The Christmas tree thing, I did a quick research, didn't realize at one point, from this site: http://www.history.com/topics/christmas/history-of-christmas-trees there may have been a religious reason, that the Germans brought them into their homes, but I know, that for England and to here in the states and such, Queen Victoria's husband, Prince Albert, a German, brought the Christmas tree tradition in the home. I find that the pagan history of how pine and pine trees being worshiped so to speak equally interesting. And that's just one thing I wonder that Mr. Cameron is not just aware of. And that little bit about Christ being born on December 25th, Really?! Where did he get that information? Maybe some can educate me here, but wasn't he born in the summer?

[Lilly]

Lots of folks try and re-define things in order to support what they believe. It appears that this is an attempt to change historical facts so that they fit into a particular belief system. This kind of thing never works...but that doesn't seem to stop some people from trying.

[libstaK]

I have zero problem with any pagan roots of Christmas or the origins of St Nic, Christmas trees, exchanging presents, you name it. Fact is, it is a time of year set aside for good food, good company, sharing and remembering what matters most - to christians it's a natural next step to associate all this good spirit with what Jesus was born to teach us and give us, so yeah we picked the time as opportune to make the most of his message and honor his birth.

Queen Elizabeth's Birthday is celebrated on different days and even different months throughout the Commonwealth but we all share in common that it is the day we remember her birthday (ok, not really - it's a public holiday and we happy to pretend it matters, cos we like our public holiday - but that's a whole other story).

We choose a day and time to symbolize what matters most, if we happen to be able to share that time with a pagan festival that has the same aspirations, all the better, more people who are willing to join in the spirit of the time and the partying.

He has no reason outside of runaway ego and brazen self righteousness to make statements he has not even bothered to properly investigate and understand.

[freetoroam]

He is obviously in denial about history... but put it down to him having the ATCV-1 virus.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Queen Elizabeth's Birthday is celebrated on different days and even different months throughout the Commonwealth but we all share in common that it is the day we remember her birthday (ok, not really - it's a public holiday and we happy to pretend it matters, cos we like our public holiday - but that's a whole other story).

Yeah, I noticed this. Is she the only one this happens too? Were there previous monarchs that had the same tradition when celebrating their birthday? Edited November 13, 2014 by Stubbly_Dooright

[libstaK]

Yeah, I noticed this. Is she the only one this happens too? Were there previous monarchs that had the same tradition when celebrating their birthday?

I don't know but I'm guessing whoever ends up her successor - we will still have our holiday on the same day.

[Rafterman]

The anti-intellectualism of mainstream christianity is staggering and it's getting worse. In fact, it was the final straw for me when it comes to religion.

[Grandpa Greenman]

My issue isn't so much with the religion inasmuch the media that give this kind nonsense enough credence to put it into print.

[CJ1983]

I will be sacrificing a turkey in my kitchen for Christmas this year, just like last year, to appease my pagan relics. (Or maybe just to feed everyone)

Christmas is my least favorite holiday, waste of money, fake cheerfulness, and anything I want to buy myself starting in Novemeber has to get put on hold so my wife can get it for me for Christmas. That's the worst part. I want my new guitar amp now!

[quiXilver]

Too bad someone can't save Mr Camoron's critical thinking skills...

[Stubbly_Dooright]

I will be sacrificing a turkey in my kitchen for Christmas this year, just like last year, to appease my pagan relics. (Or maybe just to feed everyone)

Christmas is my least favorite holiday, waste of money, fake cheerfulness, and anything I want to buy myself starting in Novemeber has to get put on hold so my wife can get it for me for Christmas. That's the worst part. I want my new guitar amp now!

That reminds me, I need to start perusing Guitar Center for my son.

Too bad someone can't save Mr Camoron's critical thinking skills...

I have no respect for him, period. When Andrew Koenig was missing then his body was found, I remember Cameron giving a short generic blip about him, but then went into this lecture about finding God and Jesus and making right before we die. Koenig played Bonar on Growing pains, and I thought there would be more from Cameron about him. Allysa Milano did more for Koenig, and I don't think she ever worked with him. And besides, Koenig being son of Walter Koenig, (Star Trek's Chekov) was half Jewish, so I found what Cameron said a bit disrespectful. But,, that's me. Edited November 13, 2014 by Stubbly_Dooright

[Doug1029]

Seems to me it's the pagans who need to save Christmas, or rather Mithra's birthday. When the Council of Nicea couldn't decide when Jesus' birthday was, Constantine chose one for them. He picked Mithra's birthday and birthplace so as to leave the fewest possible conflicts between Christianity and paganism so he could reduce the religious strife that was tearing the Empire apart. Ever since, Christians have celebrated Mithra's birthday.

Doug

[+Link of Hyrule]

The anti-intellectualism of mainstream christianity is staggering and it's getting worse. In fact, it was the final straw for me when it comes to religion.

Mainstream? Really? Perhaps "mainstream southern Baptist" (stereotype, at least), but that's not my experiences of mainstream Christianity anywhere that I've lived.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Seems to me it's the pagans who need to save Christmas, or rather Mithra's birthday. When the Council of Nicea couldn't decide when Jesus' birthday was, Constantine chose one for them. He picked Mithra's birthday and birthplace so as to leave the fewest possible conflicts between Christianity and paganism so he could reduce the religious strife that was tearing the Empire apart. Ever since, Christians have celebrated Mithra's birthday.

Doug

Exactly what source are you using for this, Doug? Mithra is a mystery cult, very little written records exist to help us today, it would certainly be news to me if documented evidence shows a December 25 birthday for Mithra.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Exactly what source are you using for this, Doug? Mithra is a mystery cult, very little written records exist to help us today, it would certainly be news to me if documented evidence shows a December 25 birthday for Mithra.

I did some research.

It as actually based on a different holiday, Natalis Invicti, birth of the Sun. Needless to say there is a lot of written evidence about Lord Mithra. Outside the Bible there is much less evidence of Jesus than there is of Mithra and the claims around his birth are just as bizarre as those of the birth of any other "god". There is no proof that Jesus was born on the 25th or that he was actually born at all. That makes Christianity as much a mystery cult as Mithraism.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=main#Mithras_and_Christianity

[+Link of Hyrule]

I did some research.

It as actually based on a different holiday, Natalis Invicti, birth of the Sun. Needless to say there is a lot of written evidence about Lord Mithra. Outside the Bible there is much less evidence of Jesus than there is of Mithra and the claims around his birth are just as bizarre as those of the birth of any other "god". There is no proof that Jesus was born on the 25th or that he was actually born at all. That makes Christianity as much a mystery cult as Mithraism.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=main#Mithras_and_Christianity

But all of the written evidence for Mithras dates after the written evidence of Jesus, which makes it an irrelevant comparison to Jesus. Mystery cults aren't exactly mysterious if you have people less than 20 years after the alleged events writing long and very public accounts of what they believe.

Granted, there is archaeological evidence of the Mithras cult but the evidence doesn't lead anywhere near a comparison to Christianity (except insofar as Christians borrowed some thematic artwork, which is well admitted already and proves nothing).

I am well aware of Mithras, having read the long comparisons to him and Jesus, and only the websites specifically attempting to draw parallels between the two actually argue that December 25 is copied from Mithras. Hence my question as to what source is being used. I'd place a small monetary wager that if such evidence is written down somewhere it does not predate Christian adoption of said date (of course, the rules of the website prevent money making schemes and therefore my claim to wager money is only bravado speaking).

[Doug1029]

Exactly what source are you using for this, Doug? Mithra is a mystery cult, very little written records exist to help us today, it would certainly be news to me if documented evidence shows a December 25 birthday for Mithra.

Here's a source for you. There are lots of others, including some of the classics like Cassius Dio.

http://www.cogwriter...ras-birthday-2/

Constantine was a Mithraic. Features of Mithraism that were adopted by Christianity are believed to have been his doing. It was Constantine's mother, St. Helena, who selected Mithra's birthplace to be the site of Jesus' birth. The Church of the Nativity now occupies that spot.

There are thousands of pages written ABOUT Mithraism during ancient times, but very little BY Mithraics. Over 400 Mithraic churches have been excavated.

Early Christians took a disliking to Mithraism, but I haven't figured out why. Both sides charged the other with usurping their rituals.

Doug

Edited November 14, 2014 by Doug1029

[+HerNibs]

I don't care about the "origins of Christmas". I care about what my Christmas means to me. Love, giving, sharing, laughing, family, etc.

Sorry, but my mocking of Kirk will begin now...

Nibs

[Doug1029]

There is a reference to Mithra in Xenophon's Cyropedia, a work that dates from the fourth century BC.

The name mi-it-ra- appears as the name of a god in a peace treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni from about 1400 BC. That predates Moses, at least, the Ramesside version of the story.

Gods with similar names are referenced in the Rig Veda and Zend Avesta.

There is also a reference to Mithra in the writings of Marcus Antonius Pallas (d. 62 AD). Pallas' brother was Marcus Antonius Felix, a procurator of Judea from 52 to 58 AD who may have been the Felix referenced in Luke/Acts.

It would appear that Mithraism, or at least its origins, vastly predates Christianity.

Doug

[+Link of Hyrule]

Here's a source for you. There are lots of others, including some of the classics like Cassius Dio.

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/today-is-mithras-birthday-2/

Constantine was a Mithraic. Features of Mithraism that were adopted by Christianity are believed to have been his doing. It was Constantine's mother, St. Helena, who selected Mithra's birthplace to be the site of Jesus' birth. The Church of the Nativity now occupies that spot.

There are thousands of pages written ABOUT Mithraism during ancient times, but very little BY Mithraics. Over 400 Mithraic churches have been excavated.

Early Christians took a disliking to Mithraism, but I haven't figured out why. Both sides charged the other with usurping their rituals. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.

Doug

I didn't click on all the other links in the thread, only just the main article cited. I did not see a single pre-Christian source that identified Mithras' birthday as December 25. I saw a reference to artwork, but I've already acknowledged that so the point is moot. So far, as far as i know, only websites that specifically attempt to link Mithras and Jesus actually make this claim (what is this website link about, I've temporally forgotten). Edited November 14, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[karmakazi]

Mainstream? Really? Perhaps "mainstream southern Baptist" (stereotype, at least), but that's not my experiences of mainstream Christianity anywhere that I've lived.

It may not actually be mainstream, but some days it sure feels like it.... But the places I've lived are not populated by particularly educated or informed people.

Some places in the US, there are people who honestly believe that anything that isn't Christian is the work of the devil, designed to tear down Christianity. My grandfather once told us (my family collectively) that we shouldn't use x-mas for anything because the abbreviation was made to take Christ out of the holiday. That the abbreviation itself was evil and the work of the devil.

[+Link of Hyrule]

There is a reference to Mithra in Xenophon's Cyropedia, a work that dates from the fourth century BC.

The name mi-it-ra- appears as the name of a god in a peace treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni from about 1400 BC. That predates Moses, at least, the Ramesside version of the story.

Gods with similar names are referenced in the Rig Veda and Zend Avesta.

There is also a reference to Mithra in the writings of Marcus Antonius Pallas (d. 62 AD). Pallas' brother was Marcus Antonius Felix, a procurator of Judea from 52 to 58 AD who may have been the Felix referenced in Luke/Acts.

It would appear that Mithraism, or at least its origins, vastly predates Christianity.

Doug

And I totally agree with that sentiment. Nothing I have said goes against it. What I have said is that the written evidence dates to after the written evidence for Jesus. And the archaeological evidence that exists prior to the written (and prior to the written Christian evidence) shows a completely different deity than the one expressed by written sources). So did Mithraism influence Christianity, or did the sharp rise in Christian belief influence Mithraic belief? The evidence suggests the latter.

I have not been presented with a source pre-dating Christianity that supports your assertion, but I will read such a source when or if you ever provide it.

[+Link of Hyrule]

It may not actually be mainstream, but some days it sure feels like it.... But the places I've lived are not populated by particularly educated or informed people.

Some places in the US, there are people who honestly believe that anything that isn't Christian is the work of the devil, designed to tear down Christianity. My grandfather once told us (my family collectively) that we shouldn't use x-mas for anything because the abbreviation was made to take Christ out of the holiday. That the abbreviation itself was evil and the work of the devil.

Being that I am not from America, nor are the majority of actual Christians on the planet earth from America, I wonder why your views are so valued as a base-line comparison. Reminds me of "The Hunt for Red October" (I think that was the film, at least, it's been years so I could be wrong). In that movie, the Americans decoded the Enigma Code used by the Nazi's - only in real life, the Enigma code was broken before the Americans even entered the war. Somehow American experiences are more important than historical experiences in your society.

I can't answer it, so don't ask me why.

[karmakazi]

Being that I am not from America, nor are the majority of actual Christians on the planet earth from America, I wonder why your views are so valued as a base-line comparison. Reminds me of "The Hunt for Red October" (I think that was the film, at least, it's been years so I could be wrong). In that movie, the Americans decoded the Enigma Code used by the Nazi's - only in real life, the Enigma code was broken before the Americans even entered the war. Somehow American experiences are more important than historical experiences in your society.

I can't answer it, so don't ask me why.

I've lived here 35 years and I don't get it either, so I can't explain it to you. My fellow citizens make me scratch my head in wonder every single day.