82 replies to this topic

[SwampgasBalloonBoy]

Esoteric Toad, on 07 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

For many belief in ET is like a religion in that no matter what the evidence en is shown via any method that they have not visited the earth there are those that refuse the obvious and accept the equivalent of "wine into blood" or "he had a talking donkey". I will stick with the scientific view. To me there have been no alien visitors to earth. I feel there are other intelligent beings out there but, not any capable of zipping across the vast distances. Of space for what seems like silly reasons we read about.

There are evidences for alien visitation to earth but many were dismissed, rightly or wrongly. But I don't think there are any evidence to show they have not visited. If you feel there are intelligent beings out there, couldn't you go a step further and believe that some are capable of long distance travel? This just mean they are a little more intelligent than you think

[psyche101]

SwampgasBalloonBoy, on 08 January 2013 - 03:22 AM, said:

There are evidences for alien visitation to earth but many were dismissed, rightly or wrongly. But I don't think there are any evidence to show they have not visited. If you feel there are intelligent beings out there, couldn't you go a step further and believe that some are capable of long distance travel? This just mean they are a little more intelligent than you think

If the evidence is genuine, it will stand alone. I really feel that a visit from ET will not be so ambiguous as is made out. Bloody heck, it's Sherlock Holmes Aliens!

Distance is ever increasing, we can never see the other side of the Universe, it is just plain to far away. Some space travel is possible with time dilation and length contraction, quite a bit actually (amazingly using these techniques we could reach the center of our Galaxy in a mere 12 years! But nobody on earth would know about it for centuries. Slowing down is another matter though, on trips to the moon, most of the time is spent decelerating I believe), but it comes with "conditions" there are no free rides. Where this ideal of a species "we cannot imagine" falls down is that the entire Universe obeys the same laws of physics. What works here will work in the Andromeda Galaxy, and any other place. Somethings just cannot be done, that's one of those though lessons we learn that we do not like. It suck's but what ya gonna do? Just our Galaxy I am sure could keep us interested until the Sun burns out, or the Milky Way collides with Andromeda, both of which will happen.

We have many ideas to fold and bend space, but they remain that (an idea), and I feel always will. Some are even elegant in design, however, as I said nothing is for free. Each of these "solutions" comes with a set of hurdles ready to hobble you back down to earth. They create more problems than they solve in general.

I still say Comms is the best way forward into this area. The only thing I have seen travel space successfully is light. We should see what is around us, and recognise the value in it, instead of wishing up huge dream lists. If nature has already done it, then it must be possible. We utilise light for comms extensively. I think we just need to have a harder think, and perhaps a better look at it.

Edited by psyche101, 08 January 2013 - 04:30 AM.

[bison]

Many technical achievements of which we are now capable were once held to be impossible. Our imperfect understanding of the laws of nature was often the basis for this. Radio waves were once considered a fantasy, so was atomic energy. Placing limits on what may ever be done, based on our current understanding of how the universe works, seem precarious assumptions, at best. Where it all falls down is here: We can't predict the future with any accuracy, as repeated failed attempts to do so attest. Our current knowledge is incomplete and less than perfect, as should be obvious.

[psyche101]

bison, on 08 January 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Many technical achievements of which we are now capable were once held to be impossible. Our imperfect understanding of the laws of nature was often the basis for this. Radio waves were once considered a fantasy, so was atomic energy. Placing limits on what may ever be done, based on our current understanding of how the universe works, seem precarious assumptions, at best. Where it all falls down is here: We can't predict the future with any accuracy, as repeated failed attempts to do so attest. Our current knowledge is incomplete and less than perfect, as should be obvious.

And yet nature held the answers all along. It was said the speed of sound could not be achieved, yet it was in nature all around us. Radio waves and Atomic energy were also observable in nature, we had to develop tools to follow this path, but because examples intrigued observant people.
E=MC2 is not a misunderstanding. If you are insisting that the speed of light is a simple barrier to overcome, I strongly disagree. 100 Years of research has only galvanised the concept, it has not been so much as marked by opposition. I do not see the point in speculating fantasy speed when we have models to work with now and new directions to try.
No worries, I do not expect a reply, I know you do not like your speculations challenged.

[bison]

psyche101, on 09 January 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

And yet nature held the answers all along. It was said the speed of sound could not be achieved, yet it was in nature all around us. Radio waves and Atomic energy were also observable in nature, we had to develop tools to follow this path, but because examples intrigued observant people.
E=MC2 is not a misunderstanding. If you are insisting that the speed of light is a simple barrier to overcome, I strongly disagree. 100 Years of research has only galvanised the concept, it has not been so much as marked by opposition. I do not see the point in speculating fantasy speed when we have models to work with now and new directions to try.
No worries, I do not expect a reply, I know you do not like your speculations challenged.

    I have not speculated  about 'fantasy speeds' beyond that of light. I am inclined to expect that under the conditions specified by the theory of relativity, the light speed limit will hold. Newton's ideas about gravity remain a very good approximation of reality under most conditions, and are still used to guide space probes to the limits of the solar system, and accurately describe the orbits of asteroids.
It is not so fantastic a concept that there might be situations to which relativity does not apply. Some quite respectable physicists are willing to seriously consider this possibility. Scientists at NASA are making tests to see if space can be warped, with the idea that this might one day be used to send space vessels to the stars. The local speed of the ship would be zero with respect to the space surrounding it, but the global effect would be reach points in space much sooner than light could.

[psyche101]

bison, on 09 January 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

I have not speculated  about 'fantasy speeds' beyond that of light. I am inclined to expect that under the conditions specified by the theory of relativity, the light speed limit will hold. Newton's ideas about gravity remain a very good approximation of reality under most conditions, and are still used to guide space probes to the limits of the solar system, and accurately describe the orbits of asteroids.
It is not so fantastic a concept that there might be situations to which relativity does not apply. Some quite respectable physicists are willing to seriously consider this possibility. Scientists at NASA are making tests to see if space can be warped, with the idea that this might one day be used to send space vessels to the stars. The local speed of the ship would be zero with respect to the space surrounding it, but the global effect would be reach points in space much sooner than light could.

I must say I am surprised to hear from you, you did ignore my last dozen or so attempts to discuss subjects with you. Shame that, I do respect your posting. I may not agree with it often, but it is nice to have a sensible conversation, and not wear kid gloves with someone that will pretend to wonder how man managed to stack rocks together in the past. The level of discussion here has dropped in recent times. I think guys like yourself, Quillius and MacGuffin have set the bar to high for the current set of nonsense polluting the boards.

If you are not talking about the speed of light, what does your comment to "limits" refer to? That is the "limit" in space travel is it not? I did not expect a reply, but now that you have offered one, might I ask you to extrapolate further? I am unaware of what limits you might be referring to. If I am way of the mark, I humbly apologise but am not sure how I would get another impression from what was provided.

Relativity may not apply in a black hole, that is suspected already, but why? Because of the conditions of a Black Hole. If one feels strongly enough about other anomalous regions to mention them, it just seems incomplete without further information. Yes that might be the case, but I would expect one to state where and why, not just that in space anything can happen, your academic level has always appeared beyond such ambiguous speculation, I am just asking you to complete that which you started. It seems a rather broad statement to make without further information. If you have any, I would be much appreciative of a link. Broad statements lead to confusion, confusion leads to argument. I just hope to avoid such with your good self.

Edited by psyche101, 09 January 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[DONTEATUS]

Im not scared of no stinkin Aliens !  We Got Our Best Team to Fight for us !

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[Colonel Rhuairidh]

psyche101, on 09 January 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

And yet nature held the answers all along. It was said the speed of sound could not be achieved, yet it was in nature all around us. Radio waves and Atomic energy were also observable in nature, we had to develop tools to follow this path, but because examples intrigued observant people.
E=MC2 is not a misunderstanding. If you are insisting that the speed of light is a simple barrier to overcome, I strongly disagree. 100 Years of research has only galvanised the concept, it has not been so much as marked by opposition. I do not see the point in speculating fantasy speed when we have models to work with now and new directions to try.
No worries, I do not expect a reply, I know you do not like your speculations challenged.

Like I've remarked before, really I think arguing about FTL is a  bit of a distraction really. Even if we could travel a bit faster than L, it would still take years to get anywhere, it would still take four years even to get to proxima Centauri, and it might take decades or centuries to get to some places we might find interestnig. I reckon what whe'd probably need to do, and what the ETs would almost certainly use, would be some other means, perhaps by manipulating time and relative dimensions in Space.

[psyche101]

Lord Vetinari, on 09 January 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Like I've remarked before, really I think arguing about FTL is a  bit of a distraction really. Even if we could travel a bit faster than L, it would still take years to get anywhere, it would still take four years even to get to proxima Centauri, and it might take decades or centuries to get to some places we might find interestnig. I reckon what whe'd probably need to do, and what the ETs would almost certainly use, would be some other means, perhaps by manipulating time and relative dimensions in Space.

Perhaps, if that is possible then one would not be wise not to use it, but can it really be done?

I agree on FTL, the Universe is not only too big for FTL, it is ever expanding at a great rate. But I really do not see the point in speculating that others have what we can only imagine. I find discussing FTL distasteful because near everyone only knows the Sci Fi concepts. Very few ever bother to actually read the background information. I am specifically not including yourself here, as you and I have discussed the major problems to overcome, like a ridiculous power source, but I am sure you have seen examples of what I mean. I think we need a reason to think FTL can be achieved before we start deciding this is how Aliens get around.

And then there is the "wading species" as well. Not every species is going to go with FTL, one might have tried our Orion concept. Aliens do not have to be advanced, people seem to think so, but that is not the case. Genrational ships would be another option. For all we know, there might be an alien Orion heading our way right now. It's even more plausible as bending space because we know it can be done, and you do not need to be highly advanced by comparison with us to do it.

As far as I know, there are no examples of space ever being folded in nature. With giant like Y Cannis Majoris out there, Pulsars, Gama Rays you name it, if it exists, it will exist in nature too. Maybe it is yet to be discovered, but I think the silence on manipulating space is something of an indicator. Until the concept is at least somewhat stabilised, I honestly do not see the point in throwing random guesses at it, structured educated guesses will come with time and further knowledge. For now, it's a dogs breakfast.

[bison]

Post withdrawn, pending resolution of problem with link.

Edited by bison, 09 January 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

bison, on 09 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

  http:/./www.space.com/17628-warp-drive-possible-interstellar-spaceflight.html

The link doesn't seem to work. Let me try this.
http://www.space.com...paceflight.html

try that. You had an extra . in it.

Edited by Lord Vetinari, 09 January 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

"But recently White calculated what would happen if the shape of the ring encircling the spacecraft was adjusted into more of a rounded donut, as opposed to a flat ring. He found in that case, the warp drive could be powered by a mass about the size of a spacecraft like the Voyager 1 probe NASA launched in 1977"
It's amazing what you can (perhaps potentially) do just by adjusting something to a donut shape, isn't it.

[Tesla II]

Esoteric Toad, on 07 January 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

For many belief in ET is like a religion in that no matter what the evidence en is shown via any method that they have not visited the earth there are those that refuse the obvious and accept the equivalent of "wine into blood" or "he had a talking donkey". I will stick with the scientific view. To me there have been no alien visitors to earth. I feel there are other intelligent beings out there but, not any capable of zipping across the vast distances. Of space for what seems like silly reasons we read about.

Do you know how long have we existed? A tiny period of time, in space older than everything known to us...We weren't here from start so people can claim or believe anything they like because anything is possible. And yes there are people who blindly believe that we are unique and alone... so tell me aren't we a proof of alien civilization? Arent we too aliens for some other civilization? Just recently the number of Earth-like planets stopped at 17 billions... that is all i need to know... if we had technology to reach out to any of those planets and would see primitive life, that would impact everything we know  on a scale unprecedented to us... So like you believe in god and science who needs evidence which cannot be gained at all... people believe in civilizations out there... it isnt hard.. like i couldn't believe in an 8 meters  big squid deep in the sea...If you don't believe you just don't , others do... end of story.

Edit: Lots of spelling errors my apologies.

Edited by Nuke_em, 09 January 2013 - 04:29 PM.

[bison]

Lord Vetinari, on 09 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

The link doesn't seem to work. Let me try this.
http://www.space.com...paceflight.html

try that. You had an extra . in it.

Thanks, Lord Vetinari, for correcting my link. When I looked for the topic, a quick search with the terms 'space warp NASA' brought up many accessible articles on the current thinking and work on warp based space drives. The space.com article mentions an *effective* speed of 10 times that of light, without explaining how this was arrived at. One suspects that this might be improved upon, just as the energy requirements were very much reduced by tweaking the Alcubierre design. Even 10 x C would enable us to send probes to the nearer stars in a few months to a few years, no longer than current space probe missions to planets in our own system. Of course when we talk of *effective* speeds above that of light, the speed of light is not actually violated in relation to the space immediately surrounding the ship. The *local* speed is zero. The speed of light it 'gotten around' by expanding space in the direction one wishes to travel, and compressed in the opposite direction.

[DONTEATUS]

If your towel is clean and the Vogons  premitting  ITs a Go for FLT !