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Truth behind The Bible


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#16    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostHavocWing, on 19 February 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

You could look at the bible(s) like I do,  as the rantings of a raving narcissistic madman hell bent on causing as much suffering and destruction on mankind as possible.  You could look at the bible(s) as being a deadly poison to society that will accomplish nothing more than our own destruction.  Maybe I shouldn't care, it isn't like they do.

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 24 February 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

You can look at certain atheists the same way.

Why can't we discuss belief / non-belief like civilized individuals? Do we have to result to vulgarity and Stereotypes?

It's not like I'm trying to spit in your face, but atheists like you sure seem to love to spit in mine.
Let us not go down this path.  There are all too many examples of bad behavior on both sides of this issue.
Doug

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
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#17    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 24 February 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

You can look at certain atheists the same way.

Why can't we discuss belief / non-belief like civilized individuals? Do we have to result to vulgarity and Stereotypes?

It's not like I'm trying to spit in your face, but atheists like you sure seem to love to spit in mine.

I never criticized you or your religion with that post, I stated the truth as I see, the bible(s) is nothing more than the rantings of a narcissistic madman playing god who is destroying our world through his deceit and madness.

Drunk with blood..
Danger cult leaders
Jewish gematria # 1162:
Who is like God
The epitome of evil

#18    maxhobbs

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

Why on earth would you assume most people think that people in the bible are based on REAL people/events???

I truly believe that 95% of everything in the bible is completely made up.  MAYBE 5% is based on "real" people or "real" events and that 5% is still quite a bit made up.


#19    Doug1o29

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:38 PM

View Postmaxhobbs, on 25 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Why on earth would you assume most people think that people in the bible are based on REAL people/events???

I truly believe that 95% of everything in the bible is completely made up.  MAYBE 5% is based on "real" people or "real" events and that 5% is still quite a bit made up.
When you systematically take biblical names and try to identify them, you usually come up with a blank - there is no corroborating evidence and there is no way to know if such a person ever existed.  Most such people were plausible, but there simply isn't any external evidence to confirm or reject them.

A fair number, though, are historical, a fact that can be established because they are mentioned in other writings of the time.  John the Apostle is named by Papias as someone he personally heard speak.  Pontius Pilate really was Prefect of Judea from 26 to 36 AD.  And Tiberius really was the Emperor in 30 AD.  These facts can be substantiated by reference to other writings, such as Suetonius' "The Twelve Caesars."

And then there are the conflations:  a few of the characters are composites of real people:  above I listed some for Moses.  There are about a half-dozen different people named Jesus whose lives are eerily similar to the life of the biblical Jesus.  Jesus of Lydda was crucified, for example.

What the exact balance between real people, plausible people and conflations is, I have no idea, but the plausible unknowns probably are the majority.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#20    scowl

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:20 PM

View Postmaxhobbs, on 25 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Why on earth would you assume most people think that people in the bible are based on REAL people/events???

Because children in Sunday school are taught that they really did happen and to question it is sinful. If they don't have an epiphany when they get older (i.e. "What about the dinosaurs?"), then they'll go on believing that the Bible is as valid as any history book if not more valid since God cosigned it.

I've known people who continue to believe the Bible as fact despite the evidence. My favorite example was my rabidly evangelical Christian math teacher. In class we used simple trigonometry to determine how far away stars are. Naturally we came up with very large distances for some of them. Some of them were hundreds of thousands of light years away. Our math teacher was upset by the distances we were calculating and reminded us that they were "just theoretical". Why was a math teacher suddenly telling us that simple trigonometry only gives "theoretical" answers?

Later I found out why. Believers in the Young Universe need everything in the universe to be just a few thousand light years away. If they were farther away, the light from these objects wouldn't have reached us yet. Therefore these crazy distances astronomers claim simply must be wrong.

These are the people teaching your children!


#21    Hawkin

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:35 PM

One thing's for certain. Whether if you believe in the bible or not, It seems to have some attraction to people
like bugs to light because it's got everyone talking about it.

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much of it can make you arrogant & egotistical.
Science would call me a Non-Conformist. Religion would call me a Heretic. Government would call me a Rebel. I call myself a Freelancer.

#22    Doug1o29

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:03 PM

View Postmaxhobbs, on 25 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I truly believe that 95% of everything in the bible is completely made up.  MAYBE 5% is based on "real" people or "real" events and that 5% is still quite a bit made up.
Sometimes we can look at a Bible story, explain what really happened and still not know whether to call it "made up" or not.  Remember the spring that Moses made drinkable by putting a stick in it?  It was the spring Ayn Musa, about four miles south of Suez.  It has been known in history for thousands of years.  Genesis mentions twelve springs and 70 palm trees.  Ramses III used it as a water source for his fort at Suez.  Josephus visited the site and found only wet sand.  Napoleon went to see it and said it made terrible coffee, but he thought his army could live on it.  In the 1920s two geologists (Spacek and Moon) conducted an experiment:  they placed "bitter" water from one of the springs in earthen pots and allowed it to stand overnight.  When they came back in the morning, the water was drinkable.

So what does that sound like?  "Moses," knowing this detail, conducted a little "magic" for the benefit of his followers.  His authority as God's spokesman was affirmed.

Is the Bible story made up?  It's a real spring.  It really has bitter (salty) water.  It really can be made potable with a little magic.  And once you know how it was done, like any magic trick, it's no longer magic.

Again, the basic story is true, but the details have become garbled and perhaps a little sensationalized over the centuries.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#23    scowl

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostMag357, on 25 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

One thing's for certain. Whether if you believe in the bible or not, It seems to have some attraction to people
like bugs to light because it's got everyone talking about it.

Like who? No one I know talks about it. Even when I hung out with church-going Christians, they never talked about the Bible and weren't interested in it. Most people accept it's pure fiction full of contradictions and disproven assertions. It does have some catchy quotable verses though.


#24    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:21 AM

View Postscowl, on 25 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Like who? No one I know talks about it. Even when I hung out with church-going Christians, they never talked about the Bible and weren't interested in it. Most people accept it's pure fiction full of contradictions and disproven assertions. It does have some catchy quotable verses though.

Like all radical/extreme statements this is untrue.  Reputable non  religious historians and archaeologists have confirmed a great deal of the historical accuracy of the bible, as far as it is possible to do so. eg as with the city of troy in non biblical archaeology. And with the route of jason and the argonauts from greek pre history

Denial of this just makes an argument seem philosophically biased. The attractionof the bible to peole is not in its historicity or otherwise but in its recognition of basic huma truths

Edited by Mr Walker, 26 February 2013 - 12:22 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#25    scowl

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:56 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 26 February 2013 - 12:21 AM, said:

Like all radical/extreme statements this is untrue.

It is hardly a radical or extreme statement if you do a little reading.

Quote

Reputable non  religious historians and archaeologists have confirmed a great deal of the historical accuracy of the bible, as far as it is possible to do so. eg as with the city of troy in non biblical archaeology. And with the route of jason and the argonauts from greek pre history

Nothing in the Torah has been confirmed. Much of the rest of the Old Testament is highly debateable.

Archeologists haven't uncovered much of the alleged Kingdom of Israel. Canaan was a collection of city-states with a mixture of cultures and no clear borders. This unpleasant fact is accidentally betrayed a couple of times in the Bible. Defending a Kingdom that size would have required a huge army and a large government of which we have no evidence.

There is evidence that there was a David but no evidence of a King David. There is even a collection of archeologists who do nothing but search for evidence of God's favorite king. They haven't come up with much.

There is no evidence of Solomon or his temple or his mighty reign of the Middle East. His alliance by marriage with Egypt would have been one of the most significant events of the time yet there is no record of it.

There is no evidence that Egypt ever had a large Jewish population. There is no evidence of an exodus from it or of people living in the Sinai for decades.

There is no evidence of the conquests of Joshua. There is no evidence of Jewish occupation of Jericho (which was probably abandoned at the time) or any other major cities besides Jerusalem and Samaria.

All evidence suggests that the events in the Torah are entirely myth. The Bible doesn't align with recorded history before the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.


#26    Hawkin

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:37 AM

View Postscowl, on 25 February 2013 - 07:52 PM, said:

Like who? No one I know talks about it. Even when I hung out with church-going Christians, they never talked about the Bible and weren't interested in it. Most people accept it's pure fiction full of contradictions and disproven assertions. It does have some catchy quotable verses though.

You for example. You're talking about it on this forum. If it was ZERO INTEREST to you, you would be on other forums that you have interest in.

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much of it can make you arrogant & egotistical.
Science would call me a Non-Conformist. Religion would call me a Heretic. Government would call me a Rebel. I call myself a Freelancer.

#27    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:19 AM

View Postscowl, on 26 February 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

It is hardly a radical or extreme statement if you do a little reading.



Nothing in the Torah has been confirmed. Much of the rest of the Old Testament is highly debateable.

Archeologists haven't uncovered much of the alleged Kingdom of Israel. Canaan was a collection of city-states with a mixture of cultures and no clear borders. This unpleasant fact is accidentally betrayed a couple of times in the Bible. Defending a Kingdom that size would have required a huge army and a large government of which we have no evidence.

There is evidence that there was a David but no evidence of a King David. There is even a collection of archeologists who do nothing but search for evidence of God's favorite king. They haven't come up with much.

There is no evidence of Solomon or his temple or his mighty reign of the Middle East. His alliance by marriage with Egypt would have been one of the most significant events of the time yet there is no record of it.

There is no evidence that Egypt ever had a large Jewish population. There is no evidence of an exodus from it or of people living in the Sinai for decades.

There is no evidence of the conquests of Joshua. There is no evidence of Jewish occupation of Jericho (which was probably abandoned at the time) or any other major cities besides Jerusalem and Samaria.

All evidence suggests that the events in the Torah are entirely myth. The Bible doesn't align with recorded history before the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions.
"most people acept is is pure fiction" is untrue because it is an "extreme" or "radical" statement rather than a more modest one like, "many people  accept the bible as untrue.

Most humans accept the historical truth of much of the bible (not the creation element of geneis nor the armageddon prophecies of revelations) but the history as recorded in the OT, and the basic life and times of Christ. That inclusdes mainstream historians and archaeologist especially those with expertise in the middle east, because so much of the OT and NT has been confirmed in archaeology and  history. It is one of the most studied areas in the world.

And so your statement is simply factually untrue Actually most humans accept the bible as historical or have never really considered the question. But most atheists (in fact most ordinary people) would not attend or sit through presentations of archaelogy and history on the holy lands, and so would have little idea of how much is known about this area. I did three years of history in a secular govt university in australia and no historian really disputed much of the arcahaelogy or the historical figures in the OT This is a modern and somewhat revisionist movement which stil hasnt gained much popularity or credibilty among modern academic historian s who know better.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#28    Mr Walker

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

One additional note. There is plenty of evidence  from egyptian records that egypt had a substantial "jewish" population mostly but not entirely of slaves, and that they were released to go home. Dates and times are hard to establish precisely, but it is clear that the jewish religion owes much to the time hebiru spent in captivity in egypt, and indeed from the time they spent in the bablyonian captivity, where they also integrated elements of babylonian creation stories into their  religion.
This causes me to doubt some of your other claims although this is not my area of historical expertise A reading of just a few historicla and archaelogical texts confirms that a large amount of post genesis OT  material can be confirmed by referring to texts/ tablets,/steles, etc from sources outside the israelites, and by archeaological finds.

Here are a couple of examples which tend to dispute two of your claims. They are probably unknown ad unheard of outside of historicla archaeologicla circles and of course those seeking to confirm the bibles historicity.Other sources i quoted earlier outline dozens more historically verified examples.

The 1988 discovery of the TEL el Amarna letters shows us that written messages were an important part of Moses' culture:


"...there were about 400 cuneiform tablets discovered at this site which were part of the royal archives of Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) who reigned about 1400 BC. Among them were letters written in Babylonian cuneiform script to these Pharaohs of Egypt by various kings dwelling in the land of Canaan and Syria... written during the time of Moses [and Joshua]. They provide the first evidence of the Hebrew tribes entering into the land of Canaan in ancient times."[6]

That last sentence points to the completion of the Biblical Exodus -- the Israelite journey, led by Moses, out of bondage in Egypt toward the land God had promised them.
3. The royal line of King David:  Archeologists have found "the first known reference outside the Bible to the House of David, aruling dynasty presumably founded by King David in the 10th century B.C." The stone fragment with these revealing inscriptions was found in the ruins of TEL Dan (in northern Israel). One "initial interpretation" is that a victorious king (probably Baasha) was documenting his battle against the king of the "House of David," probably Asa. According to the New York Times, this discovery "is strong independent evidence for the existence and influence of the House of David."[8]
http://www.crossroad.../archeology.htm


Again, the source of the article is  partial, but this does not negate the historical references and conclusions it mentions.


Edited by Mr Walker, 26 February 2013 - 09:25 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#29    Gummug

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:17 AM

View PostMag357, on 25 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

One thing's for certain. Whether if you believe in the bible or not, It seems to have some attraction to people
like bugs to light because it's got everyone talking about it.
I don't think people talk much about the Bhagavad Gita or the Buddhist scriptures, at least I haven't seen any on this forum...for some reason the Bible always seems to be chosen.

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#30    and then

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 09:41 AM

View Postscowl, on 25 February 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Because children in Sunday school are taught that they really did happen and to question it is sinful. If they don't have an epiphany when they get older (i.e. "What about the dinosaurs?"), then they'll go on believing that the Bible is as valid as any history book if not more valid since God cosigned it.

I've known people who continue to believe the Bible as fact despite the evidence. My favorite example was my rabidly evangelical Christian math teacher. In class we used simple trigonometry to determine how far away stars are. Naturally we came up with very large distances for some of them. Some of them were hundreds of thousands of light years away. Our math teacher was upset by the distances we were calculating and reminded us that they were "just theoretical". Why was a math teacher suddenly telling us that simple trigonometry only gives "theoretical" answers?

Later I found out why. Believers in the Young Universe need everything in the universe to be just a few thousand light years away. If they were farther away, the light from these objects wouldn't have reached us yet. Therefore these crazy distances astronomers claim simply must be wrong.

These are the people teaching your children!
Fewer and fewer all the time - so I wouldn't worry so much.  And there are others out there who teach far worse - or at least more destructive things.  No one questions their right to indoctrinate.  Do you believe that all religions are flawed?  And if so, then why is there no real example of any except Christianity being systematically set aside for derision and attack?  If you doubt that then see if you can find numerous examples of attacks against Islam, Judaism or any of the Eastern religions in the US or western Europe today.  And I don't mean politicized discussions of Islam, rather, attacks against it's validity as a religion.  There is just no comparison between the others and Christianity.  For THAT many people to hate the religion of Christ should tell you something - especially when He predicted it would happen during His lifetime.  His words will be here long after the haters are all dust.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.




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