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#2206    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:37 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

I dont know how to read either language and dont know anyone who does. Would be interesting to have an expert on ancient language and meaning of words to check if there are any room for an inaccurasy.

But still we are talking about a very long time, where these texts in egypt must have been translated at least a few times, maybe lost and retold orally for periods of time, before platon finally wrote it down. Small changes especially in these kind of words could have happened.

It is normal practice to for agressive imperial powers to rename the places and mountains they invade after places from their homeland. As greece and sorrounding area was occupied by atlantis for a long time it wouldent surprise me if there was a mount sinai in atlantis too

And what actual texts would those be as all we have is an unevidenced claim, nothing more. It doesn't even make for good hear-say.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2207    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:40 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:



Though some sources refer to it as a peninsula or an island, those were later sources.  The earlier ones agreed, to an extent, that it was located in northern Greece or southern Europe.

Until hyperborea has been found with archeologic evidence it is allowed to speculate, what evidence/indications is there for the northern greece or southern europe theory? And why was it called the land of the light nights? Aplace above the arctic circle fits much better..

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#2208    Quaentum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

It is normal practice to for agressive imperial powers to rename the places and mountains they invade after places from their homeland. As greece and sorrounding area was occupied by atlantis for a long time it wouldent surprise me if there was a mount sinai in atlantis too

If Atlantis had conquered and occupied any of the areas indicated in Plato's works there would be writings, myths, legends or stories from at least some of those areas but there are none.  Likewise Athens and it's allies, having beaten Atlantis would have something concerning the war and various battles but none of those accounts exist either.  There is nothing to support Atlantis actually ruling over any part of Europe or Africa.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2209    Proclus

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:48 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 April 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

While it's true that the Greeks believed Egypt had the greater antiquity

Thank you cormac!

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 April 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

Plato claims that the tale of Atlantis was given to Solon by priests in Sais, Egypt. And that the story, from the Egyptians, claimed that Atlantis existed 9000 years before Solon's time. He also claims that the priests told Solon the age of Athens and Sais and by extension Atlantis, meaning that Solon didn't have to translate anything as regards the 9000 year date. So if the priests told Solon the story, verbally, then there is no way he could have gotten the date wrong by such a huge length of time.

You are surely aware that the skeptics usually assume that Plato invented the Solon story?
Now, what if Plato invented the Solon story, but not the Atlantis story? Just as a thought. Just as a possiblity.

Are you aware that you argue like a believer if you insist that the Solon story has to be true word by word or otherwise it is all worthless?

Just questions ...

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#2210    Quaentum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:52 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Until hyperborea has been found with archeologic evidence it is allowed to speculate, what evidence/indications is there for the northern greece or southern europe theory? And why was it called the land of the light nights? Aplace above the arctic circle fits much better..

Since there is no evidence at all of the existence of Hyperborea then there can be no evidence for it's location anywhere.  However, in this article http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hyperborea  it indicates where many of the early writers placed Hyperborea.

Quote

Homer placed Boreas in Thrace, and therefore Hyperborea in his opinion was somewhere to the north of Thracian territory, perhaps Dacia.[9] Sophocles (Antigone, 980–987), Aeschylus (Agamemnon, 193; 651), Simonides of Ceos (Schol. on Apollonius Rhodius, 1. 121) and Callimachus (Delian, [IV] 65) also placed Boreas in Thrace.[10] Other ancient writers however believed the home of Boreas or the Rhipean Mountains were in a different location. For example, Hecataeus of Miletus believed that the Rhipean Mountains were adjacent to the Black Sea.[11] Alternatively Pindar placed the home of Boreas, the Rhipean Mountains and Hyperborea all near the Danube.[12] Heraclides Ponticus and Antimachus in contrast identified the Rhipean Mountains with the Alps, and the Hyperboreans as a Celtic tribe (perhaps the Helvetii) who lived just beyond them.


AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2211    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:



If Atlantis had conquered and occupied any of the areas indicated in Plato's works there would be writings, myths, legends or stories from at least some of those areas but there are none.  Likewise Athens and it's allies, having beaten Atlantis would have something concerning the war and various battles but none of those accounts exist either.  There is nothing to support Atlantis actually ruling over any part of Europe or Africa.

These writings, myths, legend and stories do exist, but describes possibly the same sivilisation by different names, from different parts of the mediterian and the world. They all decribe their own experience with these gods, which would have been different, acording to timing and what part of the atlantis empire they were most in contact with.

And when it possibly happened 11 600 years ago, one would expect most of the myths and stories to be forgotten and lost. Some of the stories has been exaggeratied and changed over time too. What we have today is probably a fraction of what existed right after it sank.

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#2212    Quaentum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostProclus, on 17 April 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Thank you cormac!



You are surely aware that the skeptics usually assume that Plato invented the Solon story?
Now, what if Plato invented the Solon story, but not the Atlantis story? Just as a thought. Just as a possiblity.

Are you aware that you argue like a believer if you insist that the Solon story has to be true word by word or otherwise it is all worthless?

Just questions ...

_

You do realize Cormac wasn't indicating that the story of Solon was true don't you?  He was specifically referring to the claims made by Plato.  A completely different thing.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2213    Quaentum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:00 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

These writings, myths, legend and stories do exist, but describes possibly the same sivilisation by different names, from different parts of the mediterian and the world. They all decribe their own experience with these gods, which would have been different, acording to timing and what part of the atlantis empire they were most in contact with.

Please link to the writings myths and legends in those areas supposedly subjugated by Atlantis that could be references to Atlantis.

whitegandalf said:

And when it possibly happened 11 600 years ago, one would expect most of the myths and stories to be forgotten and lost. Some of the stories has been accreated and changed ower time too. What we have today is probably a fraction of what existed right after it sank.

maybe most but not all, yet there are none, that is unless you can reference any.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2214    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:07 PM

View PostProclus, on 17 April 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

Thank you cormac!



You are surely aware that the skeptics usually assume that Plato invented the Solon story?

Now, what if Plato invented the Solon story, but not the Atlantis story? Just as a thought. Just as a possiblity.

Are you aware that you argue like a believer if you insist that the Solon story has to be true word by word or otherwise it is all worthless?

Just questions ...

_

Because there is no evidence to the contrary from archaeology, geology, contemporary myths or legends so suggest otherwise. Nada, Zip, Zilch.

Then he could only base it on what he knew which would only concern the first millenium BCE. And the name of Atlantis, as an island, would have been known during that time if it were true. It would also invalidate his claim as to Atlantis location, its size, it's military/naval capabilities and its control of a vast area of the Mediterranean. Also its conquering of Egypt but subsequent defeat at the hands of Athens. Also, texts or inscriptions of any kind in Egypt mentioning Atlantis would have been known and talked about far and wide. Yet, there's nothing.

My argument is that one has to start with the story as written and not how they'd prefer to rewrite it to make it more palatable to themselves. The story begins and ends with Plato.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2215    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:09 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

You do realize Cormac wasn't indicating that the story of Solon was true don't you?  He was specifically referring to the claims made by Plato.  A completely different thing.

Correct. I just assumed it went over his head.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2216    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:



Please link to the writings myths and legends in those areas supposedly subjugated by Atlantis that could be references to Atlantis.



maybe most but not all, yet there are none, that is unless you can reference any.

You can google it yourself, too many to mention them all. In scandinavia we have thousands of different stories of godlike giants. The nordic mythworld is pretty good known and understood. It also states that giant like creators with superior technology. It also mentions two or three major floods, it also tells of two wars against these gods. They also have a island atlantis like myth story that sank in the sea, it was called utrÝst.

The japanese mythology also tells of foreign intervention by gods. The firstone was a god princess sent from the home of the gods to marry the king of japan to build and develop this land. When she got old, things have went very well with the japanese kingdom, she went home to the gods again, left his husbond king and japan. The king was so sad he, and he couldent rule alone, he desided to take a ship and travel 1 000 000 "miles" to get her. He eventually got there and sneaked inside the gatesof the castle. He was told to wait, but he couldent and got a sneak peak of her while sleeping in som sort of device. He saw the real princess as she really was, and got so scared and terrified tht he in a hurry ran and sailed home to japan as fast as he could. ( it went something like that)

The north and southern america alo have lots of stories of giants.

The sumer talk about gods

The bible, noah flood

I am not familiar to all the worlds stories and myths, but i wouldent be suprised if there are alot more, that could be relevant to the atlantis story.


As atlantis was the superpower of that time with a large fleet that ruled the world, at least along the main naval searoutes, one would expect to find stories and myth lots of places around the world. And the fact that they do exist, is very similar, is an argument that speaks in favour of the existence of an atlantis like civilisation in th distant past.

The seven sisters is also a god myth that exists all over the world.

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 10:28 PM.


#2217    Harte

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:07 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

You can google it yourself, too many to mention them all. In scandinavia we have thousands of different stories of godlike giants. The nordic mythworld is pretty good known and understood. It also states that giant like creators with superior technology. It also mentions two or three major floods, it also tells of two wars against these gods. They also have a island atlantis like myth story that sank in the sea, it was called utrøst.

The japanese mythology also tells of foreign intervention by gods. The firstone was a god princess sent from the home of the gods to marry the king of japan to build and develop this land. When she got old, things have went very well with the japanese kingdom, she went home to the gods again, left his husbond king and japan. The king was so sad he, and he couldent rule alone, he desided to take a ship and travel 1 000 000 "miles" to get her. He eventually got there and sneaked inside the gatesof the castle. He was told to wait, but he couldent and got a sneak peak of her while sleeping in som sort of device. He saw the real princess as she really was, and got so scared and terrified tht he in a hurry ran and sailed home to japan as fast as he could. ( it went something like that)

The north and southern america alo have lots of stories of giants.

The sumer talk about gods

The bible, noah flood

I am not familiar to all the worlds stories and myths, but i wouldent be suprised if there are alot more, that could be relevant to the atlantis story.


As atlantis was the superpower of that time with a large fleet that ruled the world, at least along the main naval searoutes, one would expect to find stories and myth lots of places around the world. And the fact that they do exist, is very similar, is an argument that speaks in favour of the existence of an atlantis like civilisation in th distant past.

The seven sisters is also a god myth that exists all over the world.
The people of Atlantis were neither giants nor gods, so what you posted is completely and utterly irrelevant.

You got anything else?

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#2218    Quaentum

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:36 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

You can google it yourself, too many to mention them all. In scandinavia we have thousands of different stories of godlike giants. The nordic mythworld is pretty good known and understood. It also states that giant like creators with superior technology. It also mentions two or three major floods, it also tells of two wars against these gods. They also have a island atlantis like myth story that sank in the sea, it was called utrøst.

The japanese mythology also tells of foreign intervention by gods. The firstone was a god princess sent from the home of the gods to marry the king of japan to build and develop this land. When she got old, things have went very well with the japanese kingdom, she went home to the gods again, left his husbond king and japan. The king was so sad he, and he couldent rule alone, he desided to take a ship and travel 1 000 000 "miles" to get her. He eventually got there and sneaked inside the gatesof the castle. He was told to wait, but he couldent and got a sneak peak of her while sleeping in som sort of device. He saw the real princess as she really was, and got so scared and terrified tht he in a hurry ran and sailed home to japan as fast as he could. ( it went something like that)

The north and southern america alo have lots of stories of giants.

The sumer talk about gods

The bible, noah flood

I am not familiar to all the worlds stories and myths, but i wouldent be suprised if there are alot more, that could be relevant to the atlantis story.


As atlantis was the superpower of that time with a large fleet that ruled the world, at least along the main naval searoutes, one would expect to find stories and myth lots of places around the world. And the fact that they do exist, is very similar, is an argument that speaks in favour of the existence of an atlantis like civilisation in th distant past.

The seven sisters is also a god myth that exists all over the world.

It is well known that myths borrow from older ones so having similar elements within seperate myths is ubderstandable.

If Atlantis was the inspiration for the god myths then the myths would have started closest to the location of Atlantis and spread out.  Your hypothesis should have the oldest myths located near the North Sea and spread out to Europe, Middle East, Africa, etc...  In Reality, when we look at the oldest myths we find them in the middle east (Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian) and spreading out from there.  If your belief that the god myths are tales of Atlantis then Atlantis would have been located in the Middle East or Asia Minor and not the North Sea.

The biblical flood is not a historical accounting but if it were and was a tale about Atlantis, since it locates Noah in the middle east, would further support the Middle East as the location of Atlantis and not the North Sea

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2219    Proclus

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostHarte, on 17 April 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

An absurd statement.

Plato knew the number "3,000."  He chose the number "9,500."

Why did do this?

To put Atlantis far enough into the past to remove it from his present-day society, as well as to position it in an heroic time period - the "Golden" past when every Athenian was great.
..............
The idea that Plato "meant" 3,000 years when he plainly said otherwise is ridiculous.  Where does Plato link the origin of Egypt to the rise of (or fall of) Atlantis?

Remember, all we have here is Plato's words.  We have nothing from any priest of Sais, nothing from Socrates (who was dead before Plato wrote of Atlantis) nothing from the character Critias (or Timaeus,) real or imaginary.

Your statement is absurd. First, I did not say that Plato meant 3000 years, but any date after 3000 BC. I am not "calculating" here, not "dividing by 10" or similar nonsense, you got it? Because:

Second, Plato meant a date within the time frame of ancient Egypt. You cannot deny this. For Plato this is a time frame of 10000 years, for us it is upto 3000 BC. If you put Plato's dating into a modern time frame you end up at the end of the ice age. Only weird pseudo-scientists do this. Where does the ice age occur in the Atlantis story? Nowhere of course, but Egypt does. So please do not confuse things. You cannot put ancient datings into modern time frames. Generally not. You also cannot put an islamic dating "after Hidshra" directly into a Christian dating "after Christ".

Third, the time 9000 BC is a mythical time for the Greeks, yes, but not a mythical time for the Egytians, because they have allegedly according to Plato non-mythical, written records about this time. That's the point made by Plato. Again: Meant is always a point in time within the Egyptian history.

Seems, that these insights are too difficult for low-level skeptics.

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#2220    Proclus

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:35 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

You do realize Cormac wasn't indicating that the story of Solon was true don't you?  He was specifically referring to the claims made by Plato.  A completely different thing.

Hm, yes, maybe you confuse the meaning of "Solon story"?
I meant: The story that Solon brought the Atlantis story to Greece.

Additional thought:
You know that Thucycides "invented" the speeches of politicians in his work on the Peloponnesian War. But no one would ever say that this war did not happen. No one would ever say that these speeches did never happen, it's only that Thucycides had no tape recorder and so he composed the speeches in a way which looked realistic to him. Is it too far-fetched to ask the question whether Plato did the same with Solon?

View Postcormac mac airt, on 17 April 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

Because there is no evidence to the contrary from archaeology, geology, contemporary myths or legends so suggest otherwise. Nada, Zip, Zilch.

Then he could only base it on what he knew which would only concern the first millenium BCE. And the name of Atlantis, as an island, would have been known during that time if it were true. It would also invalidate his claim as to Atlantis location, its size, it's military/naval capabilities and its control of a vast area of the Mediterranean. Also its conquering of Egypt but subsequent defeat at the hands of Athens. Also, texts or inscriptions of any kind in Egypt mentioning Atlantis would have been known and talked about far and wide. Yet, there's nothing.

My argument is that one has to start with the story as written and not how they'd prefer to rewrite it to make it more palatable to themselves. The story begins and ends with Plato.

Is this a physical reflex always to flee into the statement that nobody ever found something? Look, it is even not clear what to find, as you say yourself, so how can this be an argument, then? - And then you flee back to the literal meaning, like any simple-minded pseudo-scientist. Look, even philologists admit that the story is composed of parts Plato really meant (time frame, catastrophees, etc.) and parts they hold for invented. Could you please be so kind to adjust your opinions to the state of academic research? You know, this does not mean to believe in Atlantis, it does only mean to stop being more dogmatic than necessary, and maybe even ... to start own thinking!

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!




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