39 replies to this topic

[Sean93]

markdohle, on 05 January 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

If hell is a choice, a true desire to be away from God, then hell is the best place for them to be.  Not a punishment, just a state, again freely chosen to be apart.  So to bring a soul from hell to heaven would cause more pain and suffering.  Those who hate light, find it painful and the dark a better place to be.  Is there suffering in hell, yes, because we cut ourselves off from the source of our being, so there will be suffering, but again chosen.  Repentance is impossible for them, they don't want it.  So why should someone in heaven, who choses God, the source of their being, allow someone who choses otherwise to take away from their happiness  What good would it do to join them, since cut off from light and love, they would be incapable of anything like that.  Those in hell might not be human, just fragments that will disentergrate for eternity.

After saying that, I don't know what hell is, how someone could turn from God, the light and source of all love and happiness, yet Christ says that it is possible, so I guess it is.  I know what is in my heart and my own struggles, so i can see myself doing that if I loose my love of God and others.

peace
mark

Hell isn't really a choice, very few people would actually set out to burn for eternity. Someone chooses not to believe, but not because they want to go to hell/damnation...why the **** would anyone want to do that?

It's sort of confusing in it's own right; the believer see's the non-believers' godlessness as choosing hell whereas the non-believer does not because, 1: They don't believe in such  place and 2: They aren't setting out to burn/suffer for eternity, they just do not believe. The same would apply to criminals too but to a lesser extent.

Whether they be a murderer, greedy hoarder or just plain old Atheist, no one actually wants hell, (unless they're a tad crazy) it just comes with the package and it's the most unfortunate in the case of the Non-believer because I don't see why the should get the same punishment as a mass murderer/rapist with a hate for all things good...it just does not fit; kinda' like a shop-lifter being given death by lethal injection.

This argument also presents a bit of a trap too in that if someone where to say; "well the Atheist should stop being so stern and just believe because then they get out of hell!" - That puts the believer (from whatever faith) into the spotlight where they can be asked "Are you good because you only want reward or because you love God?" Surely you'r devotion to your god should be for love and not because you want something off of them, what with life already being the ultimate gift.

[AquilaChrysaetos]

The problem I see is the preservation of love only to the few. I believe we should strive to love everyone, not just the few friends and family we have. We should mourn the loss of everyone that does not enter paradise, and come to terms with and understand why they are not in paradise with you. Above all we should love God, who does this exact thing to all people. If we love him with all of our hearts, we will love all that he loves with all of our hearts. So when you say your loved ones might not be there in paradise, you seem to say you don't care about all the others that didn't make it, you seem to say you don't care about the people that God loves. I understand why we naturally succumb to this philosophy because it's in our genetics. Even pagans and atheists love and care for their friends and family. We must be above that and deny our very instincts so that we can learn to love all together and mourn all together. Only then will it become true paradise.

[Jinxdom]

Rlyeh, on 05 January 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

And how many of your friends were in prison for thought crimes or apostasy?

None because there aren't laws against it, because being arrested or getting in trouble for a thought without action is border line retarded. Hence why if somebody went to hell for it people should get upset. (I.E. If heaven and hell even exists besides in theory).
(The funny thing about apostasy isn't that it puts you in a prison it takes you out of it. Which is basically what I felt when I got expelled out of Catholic School when I was a kid)

[Gemfred]

As a non-believer I have always been intrigued by the meeting up with people who died previous to yourself. What happens when your wife/husband, who you love dearly predeceases you and, later in life you remarry?  Note: You have fulfilled the "Til death us do part" requirement. Presumably you love your second wife/husband as much as the first. The second partner may, when they reach the pearly gates, accept the presence of the first, especially if they are aware of the first marriage. However the first partner may be (politely) "quite upset" that you have loved someone else as much as them. Gets a bit more complicated with additional marriages. Not quite as common now but go back 1 or 2 hundred years when a woman's death in childbirth was frequent and a man could have 5 or 6 wives in his lifetime, what would happen then? Maybe the Morman practice of multiple wives while alive was a way of preparing for this eventuality.

[Beckys_Mom]

Jinxdom, on 05 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

When I get punished, I learn something.

Lets pretend there is a place called hell and it is a place where you burn for all eternity ... You are burning, feeling pain for all eternity.. Tell me, what lessons would you be learning then? In real life, if you face a punishment, but you know it won't last forever, then yes, you could learn by your mistakes and try and change....Try doing that if you are forever burning and being tortured for all eternity.. Is there room to learn anything?   If so, were does it stop to allow you to do something about it ?

Quote

Doesn't matter how we were connected by blood, money, proximity or just a stranger

It does indeed matter.. It matters to me.. I entered this thread to give an opinion on my own behalf to say how I would feel if my loved ones were not with me in heaven, would I enjoy it regardless?   So I based ALL of it on the idea that my loved ones  ( those I hold dear to me in real life ) ..With me not being a selfish person, I noted that no I would not like the idea of them not being with me, and no I would not fully enjoy it either

Quote

If I didn't know about it. I couldn't be upset either.   

So, it would escape your notice if one of your closest loved ones where not with you in the afterlife?   What happens to make you forget them?   At some point surely you will notice ?

Quote

  My term for friend is quite different from yours. Which is why I'd be able to accept that my friends (using other people's definition and not mine) Were burning,

So, they'd be people you normally wouldn't give a flying toss about  IF you were ok with them burning for eternity.. How charming and so selfless of you ... That doesn't sound like much of a friend...With friends like that I wouldn't need enemies

Quote

   Also why acceptance is the key to getting over just about everything.

Since when?   Just because I accept that one of my closest loved ones were gone for good, it doesn't mean I will get over it..

Quote

  Feel free to smack me around a bit if I go too much philosopher   

Are you trying to sound like some philosopher? ..With how you have that worded,  ( along with the rest of the sentence ) you sounded a bit like Yoda, who had too much to drink   lol  

Quote

so feel free to smack me out of it   

Instead of smacking you about.. I have something much better.. Why don't you take the last sentence you wrote ..Here it is again -Feel free to smack me around a bit if I go too much philosopher, new age hippie type stuff,(seriously go to far with this stuff you end up sounding like some sort of Buddhist monk or maybe even Jesus so feel free to smack me out of it )   .. <-- Now re-read it, only read the same sentence again out loud a few times..After that, I wouldn't need to smack you around , I would think that for you, it would be punishment enough lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 January 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[Sean93]

Jinxdom, on 06 January 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

None because there aren't laws against it, because being arrested or getting in trouble for a thought without action is border line retarded. Hence why if somebody went to hell for it people should get upset. (I.E. If heaven and hell even exists besides in theory).
(The funny thing about apostasy isn't that it puts you in a prison it takes you out of it. Which is basically what I felt when I got expelled out of Catholic School when I was a kid)

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that you don't have any Atheists friends from living in the middle East because I can assure you that there are indeed punishments for apostates that are actually integrated into society and its law...that punishmen being death or at the very least, total humiliation and exile from your people.

I don't know what country you're from but go to Kentucky and make public remarks about being an Atheist and not following and acknowledging the power of god...see what happens and where you may end up for 12 months.

The world is more backwards than you may think.

Edited by Sean93, 06 January 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[Sean93]

AquilaChrysaetos, on 06 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

The problem I see is the preservation of love only to the few. I believe we should strive to love everyone, not just the few friends and family we have. We should mourn the loss of everyone that does not enter paradise, and come to terms with and understand why they are not in paradise with you. Above all we should love God, who does this exact thing to all people. If we love him with all of our hearts, we will love all that he loves with all of our hearts. So when you say your loved ones might not be there in paradise, you seem to say you don't care about all the others that didn't make it, you seem to say you don't care about the people that God loves. I understand why we naturally succumb to this philosophy because it's in our genetics. Even pagans and atheists love and care for their friends and family. We must be above that and deny our very instincts so that we can learn to love all together and mourn all together. Only then will it become true paradise.

I can honestly say that I feel sad for all those who have to suffer hell, if it's real of course. When I believed in god, I would pray every night and in my prayers I would ask god to help and if possible, relive the suffering of the damned because it always resonated with me as being horrible, to suffer for eternity without repose.
That being said, I do care about my loved ones more than I care about a random person but that does not mean I wouldn't feel bad if I were to see them doused in fire and screaming in agony, I'd be p***ed actually but more so if it were someone I loved because I actually know them, have lived with them and had a life with them; I know them and how they feel and for a while they'd have been part of my life.

I'd like there to be a unified peace in the world I'd love that but I know that there never will be. Human history and nature dictates that this simply will not happen, ever; the world does not allow it It starts with the most simple of human vices: hierarchy. Do you really think someone like Kin-Jong-Un would give up his throne as a sacrifice to enable the world to have a unified peace? Imagine a enterpreneur like Richard Branson having to accept the same wage as a check-out worker...it just wouldn't happen.

Edited by Sean93, 06 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[Jinxdom]

Sean93, on 06 January 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that you don't have any Atheists friends from living in the middle East because I can assure you that there are indeed punishments for apostates that are actually integrated into society and its law...that punishmen being death or at the very least, total humiliation and exile from your people.

I don't know what country you're from but go to Kentucky and make public remarks about being an Atheist and not following and acknowledging the power of god...see what happens and where you may end up for 12 months.

The world is more backwards than you may think.

Those are all about punishments not fitting the crime. Nothing more nothing less. When I was expelled for basically being an apostate it was the correct thing to do because I didn't believe the way they did. I thought their beliefs were a prison and wanted to be free from that. I got what I wanted, they got what they wanted meaning the outcome was a good one for both sides.
It was their place where I was forced to go to as a child so I didn't want to be there. So the punishment fit the crime.

Comparing my catholic school expulsion to both of those examples makes no sense simply for the fact that I didn't want to go to that school in the first place. I didn't expect them to budge for my ideals nor would I want them to because that is their right to have. The name of it might be the same, but when it you break it down further then that one word each case is different.

They were right(The school), I was wrong. I got punished and got what I needed which in turn was exactly what I wanted.

Those examples would change it from the school(Kentucky, Crappy Arab Laws) was wrong, I(Atheists) was right, I got punished anyway. People should get upset because those two cases are wrong. Completely different cases with different outcomes.

The world isn't backwards, some of the people in live in it are quite foolish. Nothing stays either black or white.

Quote

  .. <-- Now re-read it, only read the same sentence again out loud a few times..After that, I wouldn't need to smack you around , I would think that for you, it would be punishment enough lol

It's not that I'm a hippie or anything like that it's just that topics sort of brings it out. Since I don't know exactly what you mean, I'm more then likely going to push some boundaries that you may not like. To me thinking this crap and not letting it out is more punishment then debating about it in an orderly fashion.(hence the whole getting smacked line). You believe this I believe this, let's talk about it until we come to an agreement. That was the point of the whole line  Hell I only said because I knew you would.

Again your meaning of the words loved ones and my meaning are getting closer to the same thing now. I have a question for you though.
Could you forgive a loved one who kept trying to kill you? Repeatedly? Forever?  What would you do about it?
What about if they did it to somebody other then you? Since my loved ones don't try that crap on me. It would have to be towards other people. If they couldn't stop themselves I'd have to do something.
First I would ask them to stop(smacking them in essence), then tell, then force them, then get them some help, then lock them up,. Those after a commas means it would happen if the one before didn't work, If asking would make them stop then I'd be dandy.

I.E. burning away all the bad(burning meaning giving them what they need basically not actually setting them on the fire) doesn't seem all that bad if I could get my friends back.

In an extreme case where they wouldn't change, would you give up stop trying Or would you give up? If you don't give up then burning them(fixing the problem) would take an eternity. If you can't fix it locking them away from you would be the best course of action. Hence the whole I'm not gonna be upset if friends, loved ones, or even me end up in hell.

I don't get upset at things I cannot change, I only get upset at things that need to change. The whole fighting against a deities(Basically everything that would personified in the show Supernatural Death Fate) would be something that is something that I do not have the ability to change. I don't live with regrets I accept them and move on. (But I will do my damnedest to make sure it doesn't happen in the first place)

Edited by Jinxdom, 07 January 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Jinxdom]

Actually here is a better wording of what I mean.

I'm more apt to believe that heaven and hell form a circle then two different ones. With heaven being on the top part and
hell being on the bottom. Think the symbol for yin yang and turn it sideways. That you are and your loved ones are points on
the outside line of that circle. In life you are in the middle of the circle depending on how you act how much you give and
how much you take that is the starting point of where you end up first heaven or hell.

Now think of summer vacation and think of school. Put the whole year in to a circle from Jan to December instead of a line.

Now imagine that at the beginning of the school year that all the students start at the same point. Instead of using time as
the line for the circle use how much they learned. The faster they learn the more the quicker they get to summer vacation. If
they learn slower then they stay in school longer. If they don't learn anything at all they don't move. If they finally get
to summer vacation then they don't need to learn anything else so they stop moving.
Now if your child(your loved one) is learning slower then normal wouldn't you want them to take the time to learn? I would. I
would want the best for my children. (I have a pretty strong feeling you would want the same thing)

Now since this isn't here we only have one option for education that is school. Since I know good parents would want to use
the best possible way to teach their children but since this is relating to something different then our current reality we
only have two choices school and summer vacation, summer school and home schooling are off the board.

School isn't a bad thing, Summer Vacation isn't a bad thing. Now replace the words school with Hell and summer vacation with
heaven.

No fire, no brimstones, just education. Would you be all that upset then that a loved one is in school? Wouldn't you want
your child to be prepared completely before leaving for summer vacation?

I'd wait forever for my loved ones to get to me.


I see fire(metaphorically not literally) the same way I see education. It takes something then changes it and then out of the that something else is created.(Basically the legend of the phoenix the) Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok I really like this explanation better since it is more a tad bit more complete.I could actually go to hell to help my loved ones. Even leaves in a nice few twists that fit in with the whole legends and myths that we already have

as in even an angel could fall (That whole Lucifer being an angel yet cast and stuck in hell deal).

[braveone2u]

Sean93, on 03 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

So, how would you feel about such a predicament?

Hi Sean93,

["...what if they were damned?"]
A hypothetical question is not reality. I say this because the last time I physically died and experienced the "Void," the thought that came to me was strictly my being, my "awareness" of my "invisible existence," and my total experience of the "happening." Nothing came to me as far as other people were concerned. In fact, several people have asked me if I had thought about them, including my sister, months later after my resurrection. My experience of the Void was strictly all about me. No one else came to mind.

Jesus' grace must have interceded for me to be able to remember my state of existence on earth...only after my not wanting to be in that Void. I was vehemently opposed to being in that Void. If you had heard me cry with a silenced voice with invisible tears running, you would have sent me back to earth, for it would have broken your heart. Also, this thought of not being ready to die because I was still relatively young came to my consciousness...because of Jesus' grace, no doubt.

This Void event has haunted me to this day, and it's the major reason why I recently went back to Christianity. It's curious that I just started reading your thread because last night, Matthew 25:30 came to me during my online research (speaking of strange and yet, important to me): "And cast you the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Scary and true.

I really believe that the Void and Jesus knew my heart's sincere desire because the moment I felt that eternal disdain, an illumincent being with long hair came to rescue me, to remove me from that reality. Of course, I was not able to see its face. Was it Jesus? That, I don't know. Keep in mind, during that time, I was already a diehard (kundalini) yogi of 12 years, and this event happened in 2000. Also, right after my resurrection, I became an instant meditation teacher, as was foretold by Swami R., during the transitional stage from my Void sojourn to my withered flesh -- to cut a long story short.

At any rate, it took 13 more INTENSE years after that fateful Void event to become a Christian again; however, during this 13 years, I was teaching kundalini yoga and a conduit of the "Flow."

Have you read the story of Jonah?

I have no doubt that it was an act of Jesus' grace for me to able to put 2 and 2 together, and the fact that I received a major sign from the Holy Spirit, for I was ready for a MAJOR change and sincerely prayed (and I think the power of the Christmas season added to this miraculous event, for it's about reconciliation):

"The Sign" link:  http://www.unexplain...howtopic=240610


["If paradise is all it's cracked up to be..."]
Since I have accepted Jesus as my God (and mind you, it's not a decision I took lightly because a total of 25 years of being a yogi is nothing to sneeze at), who am I to question His decision and authority -- Jesus is not like an earthly ruler? People have this obsession (the right sense of the word) of making Christ into a man. LOL. Jesus is God, Supreme, Divine, beyond human comprehension. He is part of the Holy Trinity, after all.

My life in Jesus is a personal journey. Furthermore, I will face Jesus alone..., and no scholar is going to vouch for me. I certainly don't force people to join Christianity, but I'm very vocal about it when asked. The Bible is available everywhere. It's there. The Holy Spirit is also everywhere. What more does one need! It's already in-yer-face. As the old saying goes, "You made your bed (now lie in it)." Again, the last time I died, the only collective thought that came to me was "all about me." My journey.

Paradise? I will deal with paradise once I get there. One step at a time.


["Are you good because you only want reward or because you love God?" Surely you'r devotion to your god should be for love and not because you want something off of them]
Before I answer, define "love," without sounding like Ursula, the leading character in The Rainbow (BBC, 1988, D.H. Lawrence). Does it even exist? Is a human being in his or her present form capable of giving and feeling it? What's the difference between relationship and "love"? Is it just self-gratification, duty, and full of emotional nicities? This vague word reminds me of some lines in Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown: "I need you, I want you, I love you"; "My life without you makes no sense"; "1,001 nights wouldn't be enough"; "I can't live without you"; and "I'll take you just as you are, Darling."


["what with life already being the ultimate gift."]
That's full of assumptions. Life is not what it seems to be, especially when you start reaching your later years. I will compare my earthly sojour when I get to paradise. Sounds fair? Existence is never hypothetical, unfortunately. Reality on the "otherside" is DEFINITELY not the same as our earthly sojourn. Of course.


["When I believed in god, I would pray every night and in my prayers I would ask god to help and if possible, relive the suffering of the damned"]
Don't you think Jesus already knows that? At this point in time, we have everything to remind us of Jesus and paradise and soul and eternity and so on. We have no excuse. It takes an adult mentality to either accept, or totally reject it. Again, we are constantly bombarded by Christ in the West. The moment you get up, it's there. We're even reminded in our dreams and nightmares. The movies and shows we see... It's ingrained in our system. Thing is, you wouldn't have started this thread. There are no accidents, so people say.

“It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well.” Rene Descartes

Peace to you, Sean 93.

Paul