92 replies to this topic

[Hazzard]

Zeta Reticulum, on 08 December 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Then you must also not beleive any court witness testimony about anything whatsoever? Wow, unless you see so .mething happen, you dont believe it? No matter how many credible witnesses?
If you were a judge or juryman, there would be criminals wandering everywhere, jails would be empty. Excellent

There is a big difference between eye-witness testimony in a court of law and in science (especially when it comes to stories about ET visitation),... lets see if you  can figure it out.

[psyche101]

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

My gut instinct was right about an alien spacecraft crashing at Roswell.

Going by the rest of the post I have to say, no, it is not.

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

I'm glad some of these deathbed confessions are coming to light.

Fro what I see, they make things harder to reconcile myself. How big was the "spaceship" Haut saw? Aliens crossed space in an egg the size of a Volkswagen Beetle did they?

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

When all is said and done it's going to lead to full disclosure.

I have been hearing that for decades, so you will forgive me if I do not get excited at hearing the claim yet again. I am not sure why you think this makes a difference, this is just a recording, Hauts claims have been out for years.

But his is more what I expect from Anthony Bragalia, which is good, I do not feel comfortable with him playing skeptic, and then releasing some nonsense like this.

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

I don't care if it challenges certain religious faiths because I'll be relieved.

I beg your pardon? What in earth does religion have to do with Roswell??

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

There being only one alien body comes as a bit of a surprise.

Not really, everyone has a different story to tell about the event. What's one more?

And the "Aliens" did not exist in any story at all before 1978. So there can be as many as one likes I suppose. Stan Friedman seems to be responsible for kicking the aliens off.

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

From what I gather there was three occupants and two of them died at the scene.

Nobody dead at the scene. Not only that, but look at Brazels affidavit.

Quote

the initial press release from the Roswell Army Air Field said the find was "sometime last week," suggesting Brazel found the debris in early July.

So these aliens managed to hang out in a field unprotected and survive, and Brazel did not notice them until after the debris was recovered? Hows that work?

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

It dosn't really matter because it's only a minor quibble.

It's the least of the problems with the Roswell alien story, I'll grant that much.

Walnut Whip, on 08 December 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

This guy was one of the major figureheads of this incident and his word should be taken as gospel.

Nobody should be taken for Gospel. Empirical evidence only should be taken for Gospel.


Here ya go, have a read of this link.

Quote

Last "Smear", I admitted I may have been wrong about Roswell base commander Col. William Blanchard: Maybe he didn't order release of the crashed-saucer press announcement. I pointed out that Kevin Rancdle's exposure of the Rest of the Truth about Frank Kaufmann also calls into question the credibility of Walter Haut, the army PR man who put out the statement, because it was Haut who told Randle about Kaufmann, claiming everything he said was "gold". Yet Haut had to know Kaufmann's contradictory and melodramatic yarns were bunk. So why would he endorse the "Tales of Kaufmann" on the QT? (See Chapter 5 of my "Roswell".)
Haut has always said Blanchard dictated the captured-saucer announcement to him and ordered it released. He said he just followed the colonel's orders, and that was that. No wild claims. No self-promoting hype. So even though my investigations revealed that some of Haut's recollections about what he did in 1947 were inaccurate or perhaps "conveniently recalled", here seemed no compelling reason to question the essence of Haut's story: Blanchard was the Roswell "loose cannon".
However, Haut's now-exposed role in the Kaufmann affair - dating back 13 years - puts things in a different light. For example, consider:

• In 1979, Major Jesse Marcel, who rounded up the "saucer" debris, told reporter Bob Pratt: "(W)e had an eager-beaver public relations officer (Haut) - he found out about it - he calls AP about it. Then that's when it really hit the fan..." ("Roswell", page 228.) In 1979 interviews with Start Friedman and Bill Moore, Marcel said, "It was...Haut...who called the AP (Associated Press) and later wrote the press release. I heard he wasn't authorized to do this, and I believe he was severely reprimanded for it..." ("The Roswell Incident", Berkley ed., pp. 75-76.)
  
• In a 1993 interview with me, George Walsh, program manager of Roswell's Radio KSWS in July '47, recalled receiving the text of the army announcement from Haut by phone. Walsh put he story on the air and then called it in to the AP in Albuquerque. That office put the scoop on the AP wire. Later that day, Walsh remembered, Haut phoned again, saying, "What the hell did you do?... I got a call from the War Department that told me to shut up." ("Roswell", pp. 289-290.)
  
• As confirmed by this July 8th, 1947, United Press news wire exchange, there was no written press release as Haut has claimed: Denver UP: "Let's have text Army announcement fastest..." Santa Fe UP: "Army gave verbal announcement. No text." ("Roswell", pp. 97, 247.)

So was Walter Haut Roswell's loose cannon? Did Haut privately promote Frank Kaufmann because Kaufmann "confirmed" his claim that Blanchard gave him the press release? ("Roswell", p. 71) Perhaps so, and perhaps there's much more to it than that. Time will tell - maybe.

Edited by psyche101, 10 December 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[psyche101]

TheMacGuffin, on 08 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

They want you to think that all these hundreds of Roswell witnesses are lying.  Don't believe them.  These UFOs crashes are real and they have happened more than once.

Hundreds is indeed right. Now it is claimed 600 people say they are witnesses.


How is that at all possible? If every ET story ever told is truthful expect one, this would be that one. This is an example of the worst UFOLogy has to offer, and how marketable it is.

[psyche101]

Zeta Reticulum, on 08 December 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Then you must also not beleive any court witness testimony about anything whatsoever? Wow, unless you see something happen, you dont believe it? No matter how many credible witnesses?
If you were a judge or juryman, there would be criminals wandering everywhere, jails would be empty. Excellent

Eyewitness testimony is directly responsible for 75% of Wrongful convictions overturned by DNA.

That is out of all people convicted by an eyewitness, that have been proven innocent by DNA testing, 75% of them were wrongfully convicted by eyewitnesses, and that is 100% proven.

So you can put your faith in them should you ever find yourself wrongfully incarcerated huh.

Testimony has put people on death row, how many have died for eyewitness testimony when they were innocent to date??


LINK - Innocence Project.


75% hit or miss rate..... sounds a bit like UFOlogy I grant, just more accurate!!

[psyche101]

Lava_Lady, on 08 December 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

We will go back and forth on this topic until the end of existence... December 21, 2012.  Lol  but seriously it's frustrating because no matter what anyone says, there will be argument.  I want to know but  at this point it's a matter of who will I believe...

Not really, it's not all that good once you have a close look at it. It's the case that received more media attention than any other is the thing with Roswell. More information comes from the media than any other place, but for some reason that is not questioned. Only the diehards in places like this really know the ins and outs, most just know what the papers say.
And it's an entertaining story, I can see why it grabs peoples interest.

[psyche101]

R4z3rsPar4d0x, on 08 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

Makes me wonder If only the tippy top guys knew about any of this I mean because most of the times arent they sworn to secrecy?

The men at this base I suspect are where the story came from, They hated each other during MOGUL. They had a contingent from the Uni come in to look after the high altitude balloons, and the military had the telemetry in hand. I would suggest that contempt was so rife that stories of aliens and spaceships were at points contrived to discredit each other.

Haut was just a public relations officer. He was no big wig.

[psyche101]

Mag357, on 09 December 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Not only does it challenge Religion but it challenges Traditional Science. They want that smoking gun instead of being
open to the possibilities that this phenomena could be real no matter how credible the witness is.

I beg your pardon?

What in earth do you mean? How does this challenge religion or science? From what I see, it does not at all.

coolguy, on 09 December 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

This guy is telling the truth, and  others about the ufo crashing at roswell.
And if some of think iam crazy for believeing thiz iam fine with it..

That is good to know that you are fine with me then.

[psyche101]

Antilles, on 09 December 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Something crashed at Roswell and it wasn't a balloon.

IMO you have options:

1. alien craft

2. top secret USAF craft

I think that is pretty limiting. Why did anything at all have to crash? Why could it not be an Intelligence Operation? Such has been suggested here by UM Member Lost Shaman, and it's a good hypothesis that is hard to falsify.


What actual proof of the debris field exists other than hearsay?

[psyche101]

spartan max2, on 09 December 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

wow lol i guess i need to defend my statement.

First off, i think we can all agree that goverments lie. So i do not really want to waste a whole lot of time on that. If somone wants me to go in detail with goverments i can. Yes i know some goverments are by "the people" but in the real world only the upper class has the money to run and the common person has very littel knowledge of what the goverment does. Im not saying that as a conspiracy i  just mean they make tons of decisions each day that we do not really know much about.

Now to people lol. This could be hard to believe here on UM were we hear every story about all the scams, con artist, conspiracies, alternate theories about everything and photoshopped pictures. BUT in the rest of the world the common person does not lie a whole lot. They can be fooled easy sometimes but they do not lie. Yes most of us do a white lie from day to day. The reason people lie less is because goverments have far more motives and incentives to lie then people do. Goverments and people with power have to keep that power. People do not have a whole lot in the first place. The most common reason a adverage person lies is for self presivation. The second most common reason is a "white lie" to be nice. The third reason is when people are actually trying to gain something by tricking people.

So how common do people do this third reason? How honest the common person is can not really be proven/disproven but i will give my rational. Other then from personal experience you can see people normally tell the truth because people are naturally good. I believe we can see that people are naturally good because when we do something harmfull to someone else we always feel the need to justify it to ourselfs. When we do somethign good we do not feel like we need to justify it. We all feel sympathy with people we do not even know just because we see them cry. When people can we normally do try and help others. So if we are naturally good then wouldent we tell the truth to people most of the time? At times when we do not have to lie to perserve ourselfs.
As gandhi said " If you hear bad news all the time it is because good news is to common place".

Plus people love to share knowledge with others. So when we see something weird we just want to tell someone. We spout off random facts all the time too.

Im not advocateing aliens being real with my statement. I am just saying that i would trust random peoples stories more then i would trust a goverment who only will see you as numbers and statistics.

I hope no one takes any of this in a negative way. I know how words can sound mean just because our imagination is left to decide the tone of the persons voice.

Well, that ordinary people "do not lie" I cannot agree on. I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion. But that is beside the point I wanted to mention.

Which is - dun dun The Government.

You are insinuating here that the US government are hiding this from people. Now sorry, but if an Alien ship arrives here even today, I wont believe you if you try to tell me that North Korea, China, INdia, The Middle East - just to name a few, do not also know that that craft went into US airspace  They all have satellites and surveillance equipment, spies etc. let alone people with just ordinary telescopes who look for things heading for earth.

How did these aliens get past everyone in the world, and if not, which after all would be somewhat impossible unless you can blindfold the planet for a bit, why are the aforementioned countries keeping the secret for America, when ET gives the US an advantage over them?

[Paxus]

Another one huh?!

Interestink!

It seems to me every now and then we get another one of these just to keep us frustrated!

Seems to me quite a lot of people who have now claimed that there really was an ET craft crashed at Roswell.....

What I find odd about this case is that quite a few of these people say they have handled the debris.... but not ONE of them pocketed a little piece of it so that they could PROVE to the world that ET have visited Earth....

Edited by Paxus, 10 December 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[psyche101]

Nuke_em, on 09 December 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

Why does army pick up a ballon anyway? With less than 50 men? A ballon which could be picked up by one single guy and put it in the trunk of the car... And like sync said "First it's unknown craft, later is a ballon? " right...

People who witnessed that crash said object was failling under straight angle, like a meteor.. Ballon would be flying all over the place and would need some time to crash.

In this case, I tend to favour Lost Shamans Hypothesis, so in that case I would say that such was intended as part of the operation, however, the MOGUL balloon carried equipment that was reusable, and the Army did actively attempt to recover materials where possible. They even put fake danger and flammable signs on some so that civillians would not get too close to the balloons, but hopefully just ring in a location.

And no, a MOGUL train was 600 foot long. One man was not going to pick that up, but I  do not think that is what went to the Foster ranch, I feel the documentation indicates a smaller 5 balloon cluster might be the culprit, and yes, one man should be able to recover that, even spread out several hundred yards across by wind, but if you wanted people to think a flying saucer crashed there, you would send a notable contingent of men to make an impact.

The only person who claims to have seen an object that coincides with the event are the Wilmots as far as I know, and their description does not match Hauts, nor does it sound anything like the wilder claims from the likes of Boyd Bushman who claims we shot it down with a death ray of soms sort. Every snippet that comes loose and is fed to the public.......... tends to contradict something else  with Roswell.

[psyche101]

Paxus, on 10 December 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

Another one huh?!

Interestink!

It seems to me every now and then we get another one of these just to keep us frustrated!

Seems to me quite a lot of people who have now claimed that there really was an ET craft crashed at Roswell.....

What I find odd about this case is that quite a few of these people say they have handled the debris.... but not ONE of them pocketed a little piece of it so that they could PROVE to the world that ET have visited Earth....

Nah mate, It's just Haut again, regurgitated by our favourite Roswellian. I suppose he kept Hauts name suppressed in the title to get more clicks. (everyone has already read it at least once)

I have wondered that same thing many times in the past myself. Not so much now. Hard to see Roswell as much more than folklore these days. I find "Camp Fire Story" the best description of the tale.

Edited by psyche101, 10 December 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[psyche101]

Nuke_em, on 09 December 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

I see but the info released by military hit public in 1994, why would you wait for good 40 years, to say something you should say that time ago? It can be easily faked now, to say it didn't had to do with ET phenomena i don't buy it sorry...

Edit: Ballons don't explode in 200m radius can they? I know they can burn very fast, but explode?

Indeed why wait 40 years?

These threats extended to family from all claims made.

Well, I'm pretty much dead now, screw the family, they can watch their own backs.

?????

[psyche101]

badeskov, on 09 December 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Indeed. The whole story is completely ridiculous when looking at it from a logistics perspective. I also find it very saying that it only cropped up some 30 years later after Friedman et. al. starting embellishing it.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Gidday Mate

Soooo very much does not add up.

I just wish people would stop putting faith in the media and just stop and have a think for a second.

too big an ask for some.

Cheers.

[Tesla II]

psyche101, on 10 December 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

... yes, one man should be able to recover that, even spread out several hundred yards across by wind, but if you wanted people to think a flying saucer crashed there, you would send a notable contingent of men to make an impact.

They did send a squad there.. and no again i disagree on ballon theory there are like 20 lines written about it and no firm data to say it might really happen
( the operation ) not just that operation happened right in the time ( adn ended shortly there after ) of roswell event now how handy is that? I feel that this Mogul operation is meant to derail the people who look and compare info that is/was given to us through leaks. Plus too many people who were involved then now speak of some craft... And Psyche like i wrote before we haven't got a clue how real alien craft would look like,saucer,cigar,delta, who knows maybe they don't even need a craft..

Anyways there is just too much holes with entire event, it's like swiss cheese... I am just not sure what happened there but i don't believe in any mogul operation which data was given so long after everything happened ( it is written disinformation all over ). We would need a picture of the crash site if one ever existsed that would clarify alot..