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Bombs away in Israel & Gaza.. Again...


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#196    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 05:02 PM

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

They are there to kill. Fear is the byproduct of said killing. If you wanted to spread fear, there are much more effective ways. Tell them you will engage on a campaign of suicide bombings for instance.

Hamas have actually stated that the goal of the rockets is primarily to show resistance and to spread fear throughout Israelis the way Israel does in Occupied Territories. Simply stating that you are going to blow up suicide bombs is in no way a more effective method of spreading fear than firing rockets that so often they impact the everyday lives of citizens.

The killing is a bonus and a secondary objective, according to Hamas.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Let me guess. You say that they aren't for killing and then say they hadn't killed anyone in three years. Either way, you're still wrong.

Sorry, I apologise. I read recently there had been no deaths in 3 years. According to Wiki that figure is wrong, there had been 8.

And I didn't say there aren't for killing. I stated that killing was not their primary desired effect. Spreading fear and terror was.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

With the intention of actually physically occupying Germany. They didn't pull all their troops out and then shelled Germany whenever something they didn't approve of happened. The Allies had troops in there, boots on the ground. You know, an actual occupation?

The definition was given with regards to  German occupation. It was stated that because Germany still controlled the land, sea and air and the movement of the people of the country, they still technically occupied them.

This doesn't matter anyway. The Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank are one people, therefore if one is occupied, they are all, by definition, an occupied people. It's like Norway invading northern Scotland then someone trying to claim that only half of the Scottish would be occupied. Scotland as a whole would still be referred to as being an occupied country and an occupied people.

There are many reasons for Gaza to still be defined as occupied.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

That's not the point. You've previously said in the past and justified it that a bomb in a cafe would be a legitimate military target because of the fact that despite the presence of civilians, one of the people there "might" be in the military.

This is yet another example of you not being able to interpret the written word. I have NEVER said that. What I have said - and please do try to keep up - is this:

With regards to Israel targeting homes of Hamas leaders and such, I stated that by applying the same logic and reasons given to defend such actions (that it is alright for Israel to target these building, killing civilians, so they can kill a Hamas leader) to Hamas, then it is alright for Hamas to blow up a bomb in a cafe to kill a military officer.

I used the analogy merely as a tool to show how weak the argument from Israel is. I reversed the situations to show just how immoral it is to use this method of killing, and the excuses given. Feel free to do a forum search and you will see clearly that all I was doing was applying the same faulty logic to show the flaws in that reasoning.

Again, I have never said it is alright to blow up bombs in cafes, no matter the reason given.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

The current administration would be. Israel as an entity? No. An entity cannot be a terrorist. Individuals and groups can be terrorists.

An entity? What are you talking about? I was referring, obviously, to the Israeli government.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

And as I said, the current administration would be.

In your opinion they would be, but by definition, they are not.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

Ever heard of the word "state terrorism"? Just because you are a government doesn't mean you can support or authorise acts of terrorism. They wouldn't be terrorist organisations in the same breadth as Hezbollah or the IRA or ETA, but they would still have committed an act of terrorism and therefore that administration that authorised said acts would be classified as terrorists. Fact is, a state is just as likely to sponsor or conduct an act of terrorism to achieve its own ends than a smaller group. You only to have to look as far back as the Rainbow Warrior to see this.

But you see, using the definition of terrorism means that they cannot be defined as such. If they could be, every British, Israeli and American government that has ever existed, would be defined as terrorists.

View PostMichaelW, on 20 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

The only difference is, Israel is an internationally recognised state and it's government is a representative (until the next elections) of the Israeli people. Hamas is recognised by few countries but no one recognises it as the legitimate government of Palestine.

No one recognises it as the legitimate government of Palestine? They won a free and fair election for all the World to witness. They are recognised as the legitimate government of the Palestinians, almost worldwide (the U.S., "the EU" and Israel do not recognise them).

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 21 November 2012 - 05:24 PM.


#197    Yes_Man

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

With the ceasfire comming into effect over 30 mins from now, who thinks it will hold? I don't


#198    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 06:25 PM

Hamas and Israel agree Gaza ceasefire at Cairo talks

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20436699


#199    and then

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 21 November 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

Hamas and Israel agree Gaza ceasefire at Cairo talks

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20436699
This is good news!  It remains to be seen if Hamas has this amount of control over the splinter groups in it's territory but at least it means Egypt is being serious about tamping down the flames.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#200    Yes_Man

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

There was an airstrike about 10 minutes before the deadline in Gaza


#201    Professor T

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

View Postand then, on 21 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

And the Israeli side will tell you that all they want is to live on the land in peace.  So "oppression" is a loaded term in that place.  The lunacy that IS this conflict is that the world is actually helpless to stop it and must bring pressure on the only rational party to the conflict -  Israel - because the Palestinian side will not, CANNOT, make peace.  For them to make peace renders the PA and Hamas  impotent.  On the other side, any pol who actually brought peace to Israel without giving up Jerusalem would be hailed a hero by 80% or more of the population.  This conflict will probably fade again, probably, but it cannot be solved until one side or the other actually wins through to dominance.  I know this sounds harsh - maybe even like warmongering, but it's just the truth of the personalities on the ground.  I've watched it unfold with my own eyes for about 40 years now and the pattern is unmistakeable. If a ground invasion begins then Egypt might intercede on Hamas' behalf.  From there it would probably very quickly become an all out brutal, fight 'til the last dog dies conflict.  Hussein of Jordan is beginning to really struggle with elements of the Muslim Brotherhood so he might have to jump in to save his monarchy.  It's amazing how much things have stayed the same politically since the '67 war.  From my reading of Israel's military capabilities I sense that the only thing that stops them from casting absolute ruin on their enemies is the desire for a future chance of peace.  That and the awful cost in lives of their own sons and daughters.  Ironically, if Israel is pushed or stumbles into a broader war then it will actually free them to be much more...err..efficient in their use of their power - much less restrained.  The world would howl in anger but the world is always howling in anger at them so no news there.  Danger ahead whether a ceasefire holds or not.
If anything, I started this thread in the hope of showing people how the world reacts to conflicts like this, and how nations at and react to events such as these.. The way nations take sides in conflicts, who pick "a winning team" or use rational, religion, politics, morals, public opinion, propaganda, media, you name it the list goes on.. The conflict is loaded with every trick in the book. Most of us pick sides, I know which side I lean towards, as do you.. And it's damn hard to try and drop that way of thinking when you see what is happening, but it sure let's you see things a hell of a lot clearer..
If one side of the conflict was "alowed" to win, it would do nothing for the cause of peace imo because of the division this conflict has caused in the world. If israel got it all their way and took gaza, I can't imagine other nations in the world being to pleased about that, and it would cause an even wider and long lived conflict... And likewise, if the Palestinians took israel, it would be no different.. The division there at the moment, is causing division elsewhere in the world in places such as Jordan, Bahrain..
I think the only long term solution is for the rest of the world to stop picking sides, the rest of the world to step in and remove power from both sides.. With no Bombs and rockets at their disposal, and with both cultures under the governemnt of a world body, they will have no choice but to live together. It would take a long time to mend the kind of hatered felt towards each other, but time does heal. and eventually, they would stand united.


#202    Yes_Man

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:12 PM

Drones still flying in Gaza


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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 21 November 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

If anything, I started this thread in the hope of showing people how the world reacts to conflicts like this, and how nations at and react to events such as these.. The way nations take sides in conflicts, who pick "a winning team" or use rational, religion, politics, morals, public opinion, propaganda, media, you name it the list goes on.. The conflict is loaded with every trick in the book. Most of us pick sides, I know which side I lean towards, as do you.. And it's damn hard to try and drop that way of thinking when you see what is happening, but it sure let's you see things a hell of a lot clearer..
If one side of the conflict was "alowed" to win, it would do nothing for the cause of peace imo because of the division this conflict has caused in the world. If israel got it all their way and took gaza, I can't imagine other nations in the world being to pleased about that, and it would cause an even wider and long lived conflict... And likewise, if the Palestinians took israel, it would be no different.. The division there at the moment, is causing division elsewhere in the world in places such as Jordan, Bahrain..
I think the only long term solution is for the rest of the world to stop picking sides, the rest of the world to step in and remove power from both sides.. With no Bombs and rockets at their disposal, and with both cultures under the governemnt of a world body, they will have no choice but to live together. It would take a long time to mend the kind of hatered felt towards each other, but time does heal. and eventually, they would stand united.
Prof I asked another person this same question - WHO will disarm a nation that genuinely feels it might be threatened with annihilation by it's enemies if it could not fight?  This is not a minor point.  From my perspective it always gets back to Israel disarming and they simply won't do this.  And if the governments of the world COULD have accomplished this we would not still be dealing with this issue 65 years on...

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#204    and then

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 21 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

Drones still flying in Gaza
Was cessation of drone over flight a part of the agreement?  They didn't give much detail about the details....

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#205    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

View Postand then, on 21 November 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

This is good news!  It remains to be seen if Hamas has this amount of control over the splinter groups in it's territory but at least it means Egypt is being serious about tamping down the flames.

This is the main problem and has been for a long time. Groups like Islamic Jihad also operate in Gaza and it is often them who launch rocket attacks. The ironic thing is that while Hamas have tried at times, over the years, to stem and stop rocket fire, the blockade which Israel claims is enforced to stop said rocket fire, actually contributes to their inability at times to stop these splinter groups. They have not been given the opportunity to govern and police properly.


#206    Professor T

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

View Postand then, on 21 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Prof I asked another person this same question - WHO will disarm a nation that genuinely feels it might be threatened with annihilation by it's enemies if it could not fight?  This is not a minor point.  From my perspective it always gets back to Israel disarming and they simply won't do this.  And if the governments of the world COULD have accomplished this we would not still be dealing with this issue 65 years on...

At the moment, no-one can..
To many problems exist for my theory to take shape.
The main one being that other world bodies take sides and try to justify it.
The other main problem being that the only world body capable of such a feat hasn't got the dangly bits to pull it off..


#207    Yes_Man

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 07:27 PM

here it is:

Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
- All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
- Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.
- Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.
Implementation mechanism
- Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.
- Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.
- Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up.


#208    Corp

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:15 PM

Sounds like Egypt was the main player to get the ceasefire so good on them for getting it done.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#209    shaddow134

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostCorp, on 21 November 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Sounds like Egypt was the main player to get the ceasefire so good on them for getting it done.
You have to wonder wether the US twisted their arm a little,but all for the Good.Lets see how long this one holds for.

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#210    and then

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 09:53 PM

http://app.response....6f09189fbc9853b

This company has been referred to as the private citizen's CIA...they provide good intel on a broad range of topics.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.




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