Could Jesus know the Old Testement was flawed

[Eagleclan]

I have been having some thoughts lately that perhaps Jesus and his followers knew that what we call the Old Testament was flawed. That could explain the complete change in how God is portrayed from the Old to the New Testament. Could also explain why the top dog rabbis wanted him silenced so bad.

Christian and non-Christians all can agree that the Bible portrays Jesus as a Jew. He was brought up in a very religious atmosphere. Yet somehow the NT clearly shows God as a loving and caring, a far cry from the warlike God of the OT. Where did that idea come from. Such a clear change in God had to have been bordering on heresy and driven the Rabbis mad with anger.

Jesus went as far as speaking good of the Samaritians (gentiles), sworn enemies of the Jews. I read, not long ago, that the Caninities and the Jews an be traced back to the same people through Dna (RNA?). Guess what the Caananites are now called Palestinians. Could Jesus and his followers have known something of this.

Makes some sense to me. Does it make any sense to you?

[whoa182]

there is a program on british TV on christmas day investigating about whether everything was a lie.

What a day to air it... lol its on CHannel 4 for any1 in UK

[Falco Rex]

There was a heretical sect of Christians whose name escapes me at the moment that believed the "God" of the Old Testament was actually an Evil entity that took credit for creation and fooled the Hebrews into worshipping him instead of the "True" God of the New Testament. I believe it may have been the Cathars..

As you might imagine they were persecuted and killed for believing this. After all what better way to show your God really is the one true and merciful loving being out there, than burning some non-believers?

[Richdog]

After all what better way to show your God really is the one true and merciful loving being out there, than burning some non-believers?

Think about the number of truly evil deeds and atrovities that have been perpetrated in the name of religion. Horrifying.

This quote has always been particularly poignant to me...

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg (1933 - ),

Edited December 20, 2004 by Richdog

[saucy]

Well, the Old and New Testament books are split up into two different times or periods. The Old Testament times are known as "The Law" and New Testament times are known as "Grace". From the beginning man screwed up, sinned and because of that, there was a separation between man and God and God set up the law. Man had to follow the commandments and sacrifice animals to God (shed blood) in order to pay back the sin we committed. Then the prophets foretold of Jesus, the coming Messiah who would come and save civilization. Jesus came and died (shed blood) to pay for all the sin of the world and veil on the ark was torn and now man and God are no longer separated. The Pharasees and High Priests hated Jesus and wanted Him dead, because much like today, they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah foretold by the prophets. To them, He spoke blasphemes, talked to sinners and adulterers, the lowest of all society and they held on to traditions that Messiah was a king, a king of kings and such a king would never associate with sinners. But Jesus Himself was God and He knew that all mankind was a sinful group, even all the Pharasees. They were no higher in God's eyes than the lowely peasant and Jesus even called them on it several times

Whether people want to believe or accept it or not (I really don't care) God is a just God. He punishes those who are sinful. We are all sinful, but we are saved by shed blood. I'm not preaching here or anything, just telling you how it was.

[waterjet]

Well, the Old and New Testament books are split up into two different times or periods.  The Old Testament times are known as "The Law" and New Testament times are known as "Grace".  From the beginning man screwed up, sinned and because of that, there was a separation between man and God and God set up the law.  Man had to follow the commandments and sacrifice animals to God (shed blood) in order to pay back the sin we committed.  Then the prophets foretold of Jesus, the coming Messiah who would come and save civilization.  Jesus came and died (shed blood) to pay for all the sin of the world and veil on the ark was torn and now man and God are no longer separated.  The Pharasees and High Priests hated Jesus and wanted Him dead, because much like today, they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah foretold by the prophets.  To them, He spoke blasphemes, talked to sinners and adulterers, the lowest of all society and they held on to traditions that Messiah was a king, a king of kings and such a king would never associate with sinners.  But Jesus Himself was God and He knew that all mankind was a sinful group, even all the Pharasees.  They were no higher in God's eyes than the lowely peasant and Jesus even called them on it several times

Whether people want to believe or accept it or not (I really don't care) God is a just God.  He punishes those who are sinful.  We are all sinful, but we are saved by shed blood.  I'm not preaching here or anything, just telling you how it was.

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People grow up accepting what has been written is true just as you have. I think when you examine the story it just sounds ridiculous. Jehova was anything but a loving God. The whole thing sounds like a bad science fiction story.

[FreyKade]

the bible, i think is a fairy tale....quite a sucessful fairy tale at that!! i cant see lord of the rings becoming the holy book for a religion

[Richdog]

i cant see lord of the rings becoming the holy book for a religion

Now that would be far cooler.

[saucy]

Think of God as a father (and He is) He will punish you for being bad and reward you for doing good. It's almost like a government or something. You follow the laws, you can do whatever you want, but if you break them, then you'll get jail or even death. If you think about it, in the midst of things, our lives are miniscule compared to the reality of things. The bible tells us this isn't our home, we're just passing through. Hell isn't as bad as most people think. It isn't about fire and worms and torture for all eternity.

[waterjet]

Think of God as a father (and He is) He will punish you for being bad and reward you for doing good. It's almost like a government or something. You follow the laws, you can do whatever you want, but if you break them, then you'll get jail or even death. If you think about it, in the midst of things, our lives are miniscule compared to the reality of things. The bible tells us this isn't our home, we're just passing through. Hell isn't as bad as most people think. It isn't about fire and worms and torture for all eternity.

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[/quote ]

Lord of the Rings !! He who has ears let him hear! Free my people from this bondage! And behold ....a cloud did appear to Waterjet.....and in this cloud was

a gold trumpet.....and then the trumpet begat a note...and then another note and soon many many notes...... I'm ON THE HIGHWAY TO HELL I'M ON THE HIGHWAY TO HELL.................................

[Richdog]

Think of God as a father (and He is)  He will punish you for being bad and reward you for doing good.  It's almost like a government or something.  You follow the laws, you can do whatever you want, but if you break them, then you'll get jail or even death.

Yeah, funny that isn't it...

[beowulf]

Think of God as a father (and He is) He will punish you for being bad and reward you for doing good.

Again from my friend's website is the inconsistency of Xianity - It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward. In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity. Now that is AMAZING GRACE! If your religion rings your chimes, power to you, but now you see how it looks to the undeluded eye!

[Richdog]

In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don't return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity.

Hehehe when you put it like that...

[Richdog]

After all what better way to show your God really is the one true and merciful loving being out there, than burning some non-believers?

Think about the number of truly evil deeds and atrovities that have been perpetrated in the name of religion. Horrifying.

This quote has always been particularly poignant to me...

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg (1933 - ),

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Funnily enough there's an interview with the famous author Bill Pullman on TV as we speak, creator of the Dark matter fantasy trilogy. And he just used that exact quote and had a mini-argument with the interviewer (who is religious) and provided examples of christians burning people to "save their soul" etc and the guy couldn't find a counter, instead he provided some example about "well were the ancient Greeks "good" people, seeing as they kept slaves? Were the Spartans good for their love of warfare? What the hell has that got to do with the argument of evil being performed in the name of religion? lol. And now he (Bill) is drawing reference to the ludicrously minor things that you can supposedly do to be sent to Hell for an eternity of torment, which the interviewer also looks uncomfortable with.

Edited December 21, 2004 by Richdog

[Eagleclan]

In simple (very simple terms) -

1. The Jews, a very insignificant band of semites, go to Egypt to find work and food.

2. Along comes Moses and convinces them that they need to leave after how many hundred years. The jews might have thought of themselves as slaves, but truley everyone worked building frigging pyramids. I guess they could think of themselves as slaves.

3. Anyway Moses takes them through the widerness, lost beyond belief until they end up in the promised land (guess where). Exactly where they started hundred years ago,

4. Unfortunately, someone was already living there. So they beat them into submission and took the land. Started up their rabbis and writing a history.

5. Well along came Babylon and carried the Jews as real slaves off to Mesopotamia for hundred years. Here they learn the hostory of the flood.

6. Back at home again after Babylon fell. The rabbis again found power and wrote some more scripture.

7. Now the rabbis had a sweet deal going till came the Roman Army and all ###t hit the fan. However, Rome allowed the Jews to practice their religion, which by now was shapped by several more important civilizations (Egypt, Babylon, Assyrian, Rome).

8. Then comes this rabble rouser Jesus. He was saying things like God was love, riches meant nothing, the poor where more blessed. Well seeing that the rabbis had most of the power and wealth. You know the rest.

[Ashley-Star*Child]

I have been having some thoughts lately that perhaps Jesus and his followers knew that what we call the Old Testament was flawed.  That could explain the complete change in how God is portrayed from the Old to the New Testament.  Could also explain why the top dog rabbis wanted him silenced so bad. 

Christian and non-Christians all can agree that the Bible portrays Jesus as a Jew.  He was brought up in a very religious atmosphere.  Yet somehow the NT clearly shows God as a loving and caring, a far cry from the warlike God of the OT.  Where did that idea come from.  Such a clear change in God had to have been bordering on heresy and driven the Rabbis mad with anger. 

Jesus went as far as speaking good of the Samaritians (gentiles), sworn enemies of the Jews. I read, not long ago, that the Caninities and the Jews an be traced back to the same people through Dna (RNA?).  Guess what the Caananites are now called Palestinians.  Could Jesus and his followers have known something of this.

Makes some sense to me.  Does it make any sense to you?

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The Old Testament isn't flawed, and God hasn't changed. What changed was that Jesus came here to save souls, thereby opening Heaven again which was then closed. It is now through Jesus that people get to Heaven.

[beowulf]

The Old Testament isn't flawed, and God hasn't changed. What changed was that Jesus came here to save souls, thereby opening Heaven again which was then closed. It is now through Jesus that people get to Heaven.

You make all these claims but cannot give non-mythological evidence (notice I am not asking for proof, just evidence) for any of it! I might think that a great invisible purple centaur created everything and is going to reward or punish us for how we lived and I can truly give the same amount of non-mythological evidence for his existence that you can for your God's!

[dazdillinjah]

Eagleclan ... youve got things pretty much correct IMO. Except the Old Testament 'evolved' more than it was 'flawed' ... my way of looking at the OT is that its doctrines & teachings portrayed an unbelievably ancient time, even compared to the NT lol ... & I could go on here, but I wont lol

[dazdillinjah]

The Old Testament isn't flawed, and God hasn't changed. What changed was that Jesus came here to save souls, thereby opening Heaven again which was then closed. It is now through Jesus that people get to Heaven.

You make all these claims but cannot give non-mythological evidence (notice I am not asking for proof, just evidence) for any of it! I might think that a great invisible purple centaur created everything and is going to reward or punish us for how we lived and I can truly give the same amount of non-mythological evidence for his existence that you can for your God's!

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For exhibit A I use Pontius Pilate .... here was a real life character involved at an integral time of the story, that I believe is historically recorded as being the one portrayed in the NT ?!!!

[Eagleclan]

Ashley - Isn't leaving the Book of Enoch out of the Bible a flaw in your eyes?

I am starting to think that the contridictions are partly based on the fact that the Jews were devided up into competing Tribes. Each tribe had a different view of the situation and passed that tradition down to their childrens children. Even the promised land was eventully split into two, Judah and Isreal. Then came along writers and tried to put the different stories together in some meaningful fashion.

[dazdillinjah]

Ashley - Isn't leaving the Book of Enoch out of the Bible a flaw in your eyes?

I am starting to think that the contridictions are partly based on the fact that the Jews were devided up into competing Tribes. Each tribe had a different view of the situation and passed that tradition down to their childrens children. Even the promised land was eventully split into two, Judah and Isreal.  Then came along writers and tried to put the different stories together in some meaningful fashion.

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For what its worth, leaving out the 'Gospel of St Thomas' was a bigger flaw of the Bible than leaving out ANY of the other books

[waterjet]

The Old Testament isn't flawed, and God hasn't changed. What changed was that Jesus came here to save souls, thereby opening Heaven again which was then closed. It is now through Jesus that people get to Heaven.

You make all these claims but cannot give non-mythological evidence (notice I am not asking for proof, just evidence) for any of it! I might think that a great invisible purple centaur created everything and is going to reward or punish us for how we lived and I can truly give the same amount of non-mythological evidence for his existence that you can for your God's!

415609[/snapback]

*** People were crucified a lot back then. Stories were written what 150 years after Jesus was crucified. How accurate are these stories? It seems to me a religion was made out of this man and the stories told about him. I can't accept that people should believe them to be true and only be doing so and "Buying in" can they have eternal life. Let's look at the poor muslim boy who at an early age is brainwashed into the koran doctrine. A hardcore bible believer would have to admit that the muslim won't join him in heaven because the Christians are the only ones with the guy and way that makes it possible. I believe there can be good things found in religion. There have to be some. They are tools of control as well. Screw up and punishment by the diety is waiting. I myself reject the whole concept as taught to me when I was a child. I do not believe that J.C. was God. I do believe he existed and probably did some very good maverick things at the time. I think they ended up using him to create religion as a tool of control. The overall stories and concepts just flat out sound ridiculous to me. And if the stories told about Jehova were true, then I am convinced he was an alien and a real SOB as well.

[beowulf]

For exhibit A I use Pontius Pilate .... here was a real life character involved at an integral time of the story, that I believe is historically recorded as being the one portrayed in the NT ?!!!

Gee, that must mean that King Lear was a real person, because Willie Shakespeare set it in a historically accurate time and location. It must mean that the story I saw with Abe Lincoln, Socrates, Napoleon, and Billy the Kid being brought to modern day California was true too...After all it had 4 historical persons in it. Get real, someone writing fiction will research the era they are writting about and make it as accurate as possible...it is all the little mistakes of custom, geography, and language that occur all throughout the gospels that show that they are just made up stories written long after the fact!

[saucy]

Yeah, and I'm sure Pontus Pilate would let someone write something about him that was false and inacurate. Surely the Christians hated him for his deeds and if anything was wrong, Pontus would've said or done something, not to mention any one of the high priests, Pharasees or any enemy to Christianity.

Anyways, God does love us. Hell is not a place of burning, worms and torture for all eternity. You chose whether or not to follow God. If you don't chose Him, then God is honoring your choice by sending you to hell. Would you really want to go to heaven or spend eternity with a God you cannot stand or even believe in? Why would God even let you in? All hell is, is a place that is eternally separated from God and all the qualities of God. Pleasure, love, forgiveness, everything God is has been separated from hell. You chose to be separated from God, so that's what you got. There is no eternal fire burning and pain and worms. It's all a metaphor to describe how people will react...gnashing of teeth and such.

[atrueoriginall]

I have been having some thoughts lately that perhaps Jesus and his followers knew that what we call the Old Testament was flawed.  That could explain the complete change in how God is portrayed from the Old to the New Testament.  Could also explain why the top dog rabbis wanted him silenced so bad.  

413258[/snapback]

It was foretold in the Old Testament that the Messiah would appear in the future. The key to the New Testament is the word "anew". Only in Jesus' day was rebirth mentioned or made available. It was not only rebirth of the human but of the world as well. Only if you understand or have lived a rebirth in your life will you understand or comprehend. Those of the laws had difficulty comprehending, and only if you seek rebirth, will you ever understand fully, what I just said and what John and Jesus say below. Funny thing is - nobody has anything to lose - just a lot to gain.

John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

These are just two of many reasons for a new testament in a new day from one other then the teachers of old thoughts and beliefs. For that matter, simply defining the words new testament answers your questions.

Edited December 22, 2004 by atrueoriginall