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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#11626    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

View PostVan Gorp, on 16 May 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Hi Puzzler,

Another possibility is the mouth of the river Aa (Albis) in Northern France (Amuthon is believed by some related to this environment).
See Delahaye, Ijpelaan, Jacques Fermaut for their insights ...
Hardinghen is also a placename in the environment.

FYI only.

Oh boy, we have discussed about Delahaye alright!

But you should not forget that this Lumka-makia is supposed to be located in East Flyland.

And if "Albis" is the original or older name of the French river Aa, then I think we can forget about it.

I know Otharus has Joël Vandemaele's book about the OLB, and Vandemaele based his interpretation of the OLB on Delahaye's theories.

Do you have this book, Van Gorp, and does he say where East Flyland is located? Or Lumka-makia?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 May 2012 - 11:13 AM.


#11627    Otharus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:03 PM

View PostOtharus, on 14 May 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

English "BAD" <== Fryan "BALD" ==> Dutch "BAL(D)"

View PostOtharus, on 15 May 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

"In 't gemeen komt balddaad veel menigvuldiger voor dan baldaad."
(In general, 'bald-deed' is much more common than 'bal-deed')

To continue my study of the word BAL(D) as used in OLB, I will first return to the six fragments, of which four are helpful.

1) [124/04] Ljudgért's diary about the journey from India to Fryasland, written ca. 290 BCE
THÀT BISÁWD.VS ÀND LIKT VS BAL TO
Dat beseften wij, en leek ons boud/ slecht?
We 'besaw' (sensed) that and it appeared bold/ bad? to us.

2) [145/20] Koneréd's notes about Friso, written ca. 250 BCE
VMBÉNE FOLGSTERE TO KJASANE THÉR TVÍVELIK WÉRE THÉR HETH HJU BALD IN SJAN
om een opvolgster te kiezen die twijfelachtig was, daar heeft zij 'boud' (kwaad, risico?) in gezien
to choose a successor that was doubtful, she thought would be bad/ bold?

3) [146/17] as 2)
ÀFRE GRÁTE FLOD ... WÉRON FÉLO JUTTAR ÀND LÉTNE MITH EBBE UT.A BALDA JEFTA KWADE SÉ FORED
Na de grote vloed ... waren vele Juttar en Létne met eb uit de Balda of kwade zee gevoerd
After the great flood ... many Juttar and Létne were driven out of the Balda or bad/ angry sea with ebb

4) [162/14] Gosa's advice, written ca. 270 BCE
THISSA LOGHA SKIL ALLE BALDA FORSTA VRTÉRA ÀND ALLE SKIN.FRÁNA ÀND SMÚGRIGA PRESTERA
Deze vlam zal alle boude/ slechte? vorsten verteeren en alle schijnvrome en smerige priesters
that flame will consume all bold/ bad? kings and all hypocritical and filthy priests

Fragments 5) [203/26] and 6) [208/05] are both from an unnamed author who writes about Black Adel (ca. 50 BCE?). Both fragments have BALDA.SÉ (Balda, Baltic or Bold Sea), but are not helpful in finding out the meaning of BALD.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This word can be discussed from two perspectives:

1) Assuming OLB is a 19th C. fabrication

From the dictionaries, only BAL, BAEL, BAAL was known to mean BAD or evil. Etymologists thought that the 16th century spelling "bald-daad" (meaning bold or evil deed) was erroneous.

Halbertsma had not included the spelling BALD in his Magnum Opus, the Lexicon Frisicum that was posthumously published in 1874 (see photo).

Posted Image

It makes the Halbertsma theory less credible.
Could Verwijs have come with this idea? I would leave that question to those who know more of his work than I do. My subjective opinion is that it is highly unlikely. OLB contains so many challenging and plausible etymologies, that if someone would have been so brilliant as to create all this, why would he have stayed anonymous? This is a question of psychology, and therefore hard to answer scientifically. One case like this may not mean much, but the many similar cases all put together make a strong case against the hoax-approach IMO. For now, I'll just add this one to the list.

2) Assuming OLB is a 13th C. Oldfrisian manuscript (or copy therof)

If BALD would indeed be a more original form of BAL, BAEL, BAAL (meaning bad, evil), it would explain the 16th C. spelling "bald-dadig", which has been argued to be wrong by etymologists for a few hundred years now. It might also explain the origin of the English 'bad'. And it could indeed offer an etymology for the Baltic Sea. It may have been a dangerous sea to sail. So either the sea could be seen as bad/ evil, or the ones who go there can be seen als bald. A link with the modern 'bald' would  be possible, as well as with the Nordic Baldr.

Like many OLB-suggested etymologies, it fits like a jigsaw puzzle peace in one of the many gaps in oldschool etymology.

Edited by Otharus, 16 May 2012 - 12:34 PM.


#11628    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:18 PM

Because one word, BALD, doesn't show up in Halbertsma's dictionary doesn't mean he didn't know about it. He may have left it out by mistake, and had he lived long enough, he would have added it in a second edition.

You should also not forget he hadn't even half finished the book.

==

Btw, what I assumed was only a Danish word, LUMSK, meaning cunning , treacherous, also shows up in Halbertsma's dictionary, and in the meaning of sly, cunning.

This is the Dutch version of his dictionary:

http://archive.org/s...e/n813/mode/1up


#11629    Otharus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 01:54 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

Because one word, BALD, doesn't show up in Halbertsma's dictionary doesn't mean he didn't know about it. He may have left it out by mistake, and had he lived long enough, he would have added it in a second edition.

You should also not forget he hadn't even half finished the book.

The point is, that there are too many examples of this, to still fit the Halbertsma theory.

Also, early in his life he had said that it was his ultimate dream to make a dictionary (see biography on Knulhis site).
We can agree that if anyone would have made the OLB it would have been a hell of a job.
Why would he spend so much time on creating something to keep it a total secret and for which he would never be credited, while he could also have spent that time fulfilling his dream and finish that dictionary?
He just did not have time to do the things he wanted to do.
Why then, would he 'waste' so much time on this masterpiece and never even enjoy the fruits of it?

I know, it's only psychology.
Therefore, I will return to what I am good at.


#11630    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:17 PM

View PostOtharus, on 16 May 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

The point is, that there are too many examples of this, to still fit the Halbertsma theory.

Also, early in his life he had said that it was his ultimate dream to make a dictionary (see biography on Knulhis site).
We can agree that if anyone would have made the OLB it would have been a hell of a job.
Why would he spend so much time on creating something to keep it a total secret and for which he would never be credited, while he could also have spent that time fulfilling his dream and finish that dictionary?
He just did not have time to do the things he wanted to do.
Why then, would he 'waste' so much time on this masterpiece and never even enjoy the fruits of it?

I know, it's only psychology.
Therefore, I will return to what I am good at.

Yeah, the why is the biggest question of course. That's why Wim Zaal said that if there would show up definite proof Halbertsma was the person (or one of the persons) behind the creation of the OLB, the man's psychology  would probably be much more interesting than the OLB itself.

I posted a long time ago that it could very well be that he wrote the OLB (or most of it) for his own pleasure and entertainment with no intention at all to have it published. Someone else may have copied it without his knowledge (or even stolen it, who knows?) and added/inserted new parts to the original text. Then again someone else created a nice 'old-ish' script, and voila.

And about having time: the guy was a fanatic writer and reader, and his private library was huge. You know as well as I do that time is never a problem when you do what you love to do most.


#11631    Otharus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

I posted a long time ago that it could very well be that he wrote the OLB (or most of it) for his own pleasure and entertainment with no intention at all to have it published.
In that case, why would he never have spoken about it to his friends, family, colleagues?
If he had, it would have come out.
I think we can agree it is not something anyone could make in a rainy afternoon.

Quote

You know as well as I do that time is never a problem when you do what you love to do most.
In his case: collecting antiquities and publishing (and having his name printed with it)
As he said, what he would have loved most, is finish that dictionary.
Appearantly, he didn't have time enough for that.


#11632    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:31 PM

View PostOtharus, on 16 May 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

Could Verwijs have come with this idea? I would leave that question to those who know more of his work than I do.

I found some interesting things about and by Verwijs.

Did he know of the word BALD? Yes:

Korte middelnederlandsche spraakkunst - Eelco Verwijs / 1867

http://books.google....balorig&f=false

He mentions BALD, on page 29 (or page 21 according to the scan numbering).


Was he not averse of a prank? No, he most certainly wasn't:

Hoe dit ook zij, dat hij in elk geval in de zomer van 1875 meende z’n tijd beter te kunnen besteden, blijkt wel uit een gedicht dat hij maandag 23 augustus 1875 op een briefkaart neerpende en aan zijn congresserende Leidse leermeester stuurde. Voor deze gelegenheid liet Verwijs zijn oude alter ego, de Leidse minderbroeder Eligius van ’t Oversticht, een kort moment herleven. In die gedaante had hij in de Leidse studentenalmanakken van 1855 en 1857 “oud-Hollandsche verzen gemaakt”, zoals zijn vriend François HaverSchmidt eens noteerde.2 Het mag verder bekend zijn dat Verwijs in zijn Bloemlezing uit Middelnederlandsche dichters(1858-1867), in het deel Mengelpoëzie, een paar verzen van eigen makelij “had binnengesmokkeld, om misschien eenige beoefenaars onzer Mnl. letterkunde eens bij den neus te hebben”, zoals hij later zelf vertelde.

http://www.fryske-ak...-eelco-verwijs/


Voor Eligius van 't Oversticht uit couplet zeventien is de aantekening van HaverSchmidt onontbeerlijk: ‘Eelco Verwijs, Litt. Hum. Doctor; had onder den naam van Eligius van 't oversticht (hij was van Deventer), minderbroeder te Leiden, oud-Hollandsche vaerzen gemaakt in de Leidsche Studentenalmanakken voor 1855 en 1857.’ Eelco Verwijs, Daventriensis, 23 jaar, werd op 29 september 1853 ingeschreven als zesdejaars student letteren. De eerste twee jaren woonde hij bij Groen in de Nieuwstraat, in de almanak voor 1856 wordt hij in het geheel niet vermeld, in die voor 1857 wel, maar zonder adres. In de almanak voor 1855 publiceerde hij een bijdrage in quasi-Middelnederlands: ‘Hoe die duvel die menscen ten verderve leet’. In die voor 1857 deed hij dat nogmaals: ‘Van Cambrinuse den coninc van Brabant, ende hoe hi te Leiden quam’. Hij promoveerde op 22 april 1857 magna cum laude op Jacob van Maerlant's Wapene Martijn, met de vervolgen kritisch uitgegeven en toegelicht. Verwijs, zoon van een predikant, werd op 17 juli 1830 te Deventer geboren.

http://www.dbnl.org/...101_01_0018.php

Not going to translate it all, but the point is that he had created 'poems in Old or Middle Dutch' and had them published as old and authentic.


Some of his other works:

Dit syn X goede boerden
Eelco Verwijs


http://dbnl.nl/tekst...01_01/index.php

Dit is Tspel vanden heiligen sacramente vander nyeuwervaert (Google eBoek)
Eelco Verwijs / 1867


http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y


And his obituary:

Levensbericht Van Eelco Verwijs

http://www.dbnl.org/...verwijs&f=false

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 May 2012 - 02:38 PM.


#11633    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:37 PM

View PostOtharus, on 16 May 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

In that case, why would he never have spoken about it to his friends, family, colleagues?
If he had, it would have come out.
I think we can agree it is not something anyone could make in a rainy afternoon.

In his case: collecting antiquities and publishing (and having his name printed with it)
As he said, what he would have loved most, is finish that dictionary.
Appearantly, he didn't have time enough for that.

No one suggested he would have written it in a short time: he could have written one alinea  a week or something and still have more than enough time for his other work.

And if he had spoken about it with Verwijs? Of all persons I think Verwijs would have loved it, but for reasons unknown to Halbertsma...

++++

EDIT:

What did Verwijs think of Halbertsma:

Dutch:

Eelco Verwijs, destijds bibliothecaris van de Provinciale Bibliotheek die veel had samengewerkt met Halbertsma, typeerde hem na zijn dood als: ‘Een wakkere geest bij een stalen vlijt, een schitterend vernuft, groote scherpzinnigheid en veelzijdige geleerdheid, kortom een man van den ouden stempel’. (Ph. H. Breuker, neiwurd Rimen en Teltsjes, 1993).

http://www.sirkwy.nl/titel/416

English:

Eelco Verwijs - then librarian of the Provincial Library -  who had worked a lot with Halbertsma, characterized him after his death as: "A clear mind with an iron diligence, a great wit, great ingenuity and versatile learning, in short, a man of the old school '. (Ph. H. Breuker, neiwurd Rimen en Teltsjes, 1993).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 May 2012 - 02:49 PM.


#11634    Otharus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:59 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 May 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Did he know of the word BALD? Yes:

Korte middelnederlandsche spraakkunst - Eelco Verwijs / 1867

http://books.google....balorig&f=false

He mentions BALD, on page 29 (or page 21 according to the scan numbering).

What he says there is that 'boud' evolved out of 'bald'.
That is common knowledge.

But that 'bald' would be the original version of 'bal, bael, baal' (meaning bad, evil) would have been revolutionary in the 19th century (I think it still is).


#11635    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 04:17 PM

A correction of  former post:

(...)

And his obituary:

Levensbericht Van Eelco Verwijs

Correct link:

http://www.dbnl.org/...001_01_0017.php


#11636    Otharus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 04:32 PM

[124/04] Ljudgért's diary, ca. 300 BCE
THÀT BISÁWD.VS

This word appears only once in the OLB.
First the various translations.
So far, only Jensma's differs from the 1876 ones.

[1876 Ottema p.169]
Dat verbaasde ons

[1876 Sandbach]
This astounded us

[2006 Jensma]
Dat ontstelde ons (that startled us)

Overwijn (1951), De Heer (2008) and Knul (2012): as Ottema
Raubenheimer (2011): as Sandbach
Wirth (1933) partly paraphrased Ljudgért's diary instead of fully translating it, because he doubted its authenticity.

Footnote Jensma about BISÁWD (my translation):
"unclear, possibly from Newfrisian 'besauwe' (= startle, disconcert, alarm)"
in his words: (= ontstellen, verschrikken)

Found in the dictionaries:

Teutonic ~ Kiliaan 1599

Posted Image

Frisian ~ Halbertsma 1874

Posted Image

(partly paraphrased:)
BISAUWJE, sàuwje ~ confundi animo, impallescere eventu (to be confused, to turn pale)
Hi (bi-)sàuwde fen di thongerslach ~ impallescebat fulminis ictu
Ho Friez nea moed besauwe ~ quomodo Frisii numquam animum despondebat
By di tynge fen hjar soans déad bisàuwde di mem ~ nuntio mortis filii audito mater decidebat (anime defectione)
It ding is bisàuwe ~ res in nihilum interiit
Westfrisian:
beseeuwen ~ pavere (to be very scared, to tremble with fear)
beseeuwd ~ pavidus, pauper et afflictus
Post captam Brielam dux Alba beseeuwde ~ impallescebat, confundebatur

Frisian ~ Dijkstra 1900

Posted Image

BISAUWE, bisauje ~ ontstellen, bezwijken
By de tynge fen hjar soans dea bisaude de mem
't is om to bisauwen
Ho Fries nea moed bisauwe
~ hoe den Fries de moed nooit begaf
Yen oer 't ien of 't oar bisauwe/ der fen bisauwe ~ verbaasd/ ontzet zijn, versteld staan
Hwet dy jonge al yn'e mûle nimme doar, dêr moat ik my oer bisauwe
Ik krij dêr in rekken fen'e dokter, dêr bisau ik fen, zoo hoog is die


Westfrisian (North-Holland) ~ Pannekeet 1984

Posted Image

BESEÊUWE ~ [verouder(en)d]
1. verschrikken, verbleken
2. flauwvallen, bezwijmen
3. bedaren, tot zichzelf komen
Het woord wordt wel gezien als een afleiding van zee, waarbij wordt verwezen naar een oud woord 'verzeeuwd' = zeeziek, ongesteld.
Aannemelijker lijkt mij verwantschap met 'beseffen'.
Zie voor de etymologie het Nederlands Etymologisch Woordenboek (Jan de Vries) onder beseffen.

~ ~ ~

Dr. Jan Pannekeet (he was teacher Dutch in Alkmaar NH) is the only one, as far as I know, who made this connection with 'beseffen'.

The word 'beseffen' (modern meanings: realize, be aware, grasp, be conscious) must be very old, judging by the many different menings and old sources.
See (and tick "subbetekenissen" and "citaten":

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=beseffen
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=beseffen
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=beseffen

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/beseffen

Significant is the link with the French "savoir" (to know)

If we now go back to the OLB version: BISÁWD or BISAVVD (A and Á are often interchangeable and so are W and VV), or even BISAVD (VV often changes into V), we can indeed see the root SAV, from French "savoir".

All this is too perfect and brilliant to have been created just for fun.

Edited by Otharus, 16 May 2012 - 05:14 PM.


#11637    Otharus

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:09 PM

View PostOtharus, on 16 May 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

[146/17] as 2)
ÀFRE GRÁTE FLOD ... WÉRON FÉLO JUTTAR ÀND LÉTNE MITH EBBE UT.A BALDA JEFTA KWADE SÉ FORED
Na de grote vloed ... waren vele Juttar en Létne met eb uit de Balda of kwade zee gevoerd
After the great flood ... many Juttar and Létne were driven out of the Balda or bad/ angry sea with ebb

For the record, this is what the Baltic or East-Sea is called in various languages (because it was fun to make):

Posted Image

Note that the Finnish version means East Sea, while it's west for them.
Their Estonian neighbors say West Sea (in their language).


#11638    Abramelin

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostOtharus, on 16 May 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

[124/04] Ljudgért's diary, ca. 300 BCE
THÀT BISÁWD.VS

This word appears only once in the OLB.
First the various translations.
So far, only Jensma's differs from the 1876 ones.

[1876 Ottema p.169]
Dat verbaasde ons

[1876 Sandbach]
This astounded us

[2006 Jensma]
Dat ontstelde ons (that startled us)

Overwijn (1951), De Heer (2008) and Knul (2012): as Ottema
Raubenheimer (2011): as Sandbach
Wirth (1933) partly paraphrased Ljudgért's diary instead of fully translating it, because he doubted its authenticity.

Footnote Jensma about BISÁWD (my translation):
"unclear, possibly from Newfrisian 'besauwe' (= startle, disconcert, alarm)"
in his words: (= ontstellen, verschrikken)

Found in the dictionaries:

Teutonic ~ Kiliaan 1599

Posted Image

Frisian ~ Halbertsma 1874

Posted Image

(partly paraphrased:)
BISAUWJE, sàuwje ~ confundi animo, impallescere eventu (to be confused, to turn pale)
Hi (bi-)sàuwde fen di thongerslach ~ impallescebat fulminis ictu
Ho Friez nea moed besauwe ~ quomodo Frisii numquam animum despondebat
By di tynge fen hjar soans déad bisàuwde di mem ~ nuntio mortis filii audito mater decidebat (anime defectione)
It ding is bisàuwe ~ res in nihilum interiit
Westfrisian:
beseeuwen ~ pavere (to be very scared, to tremble with fear)
beseeuwd ~ pavidus, pauper et afflictus
Post captam Brielam dux Alba beseeuwde ~ impallescebat, confundebatur

Frisian ~ Dijkstra 1900

Posted Image

BISAUWE, bisauje ~ ontstellen, bezwijken
By de tynge fen hjar soans dea bisaude de mem
't is om to bisauwen
Ho Fries nea moed bisauwe
~ hoe den Fries de moed nooit begaf
Yen oer 't ien of 't oar bisauwe/ der fen bisauwe ~ verbaasd/ ontzet zijn, versteld staan
Hwet dy jonge al yn'e mûle nimme doar, dêr moat ik my oer bisauwe
Ik krij dêr in rekken fen'e dokter, dêr bisau ik fen, zoo hoog is die


Westfrisian (North-Holland) ~ Pannekeet 1984

Posted Image

BESEÊUWE ~ [verouder(en)d]
1. verschrikken, verbleken
2. flauwvallen, bezwijmen
3. bedaren, tot zichzelf komen
Het woord wordt wel gezien als een afleiding van zee, waarbij wordt verwezen naar een oud woord 'verzeeuwd' = zeeziek, ongesteld.
Aannemelijker lijkt mij verwantschap met 'beseffen'.
Zie voor de etymologie het Nederlands Etymologisch Woordenboek (Jan de Vries) onder beseffen.

~ ~ ~

Dr. Jan Pannekeet (he was teacher Dutch in Alkmaar NH) is the only one, as far as I know, who made this connection with 'beseffen'.

The word 'beseffen' (modern meanings: realize, be aware, grasp, be conscious) must be very old, judging by the many different menings and old sources.
See (and tick "subbetekenissen" and "citaten":

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=beseffen
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=beseffen
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...modern=beseffen

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/beseffen

Significant is the link with the French "savoir" (to know)

If we now go back to the OLB version: BISÁWD or BISAVVD (A and Á are often interchangeable and so are W and VV), or even BISAVD (VV often changes into V), we can indeed see the root SAV, from French "savoir".

All this is too perfect and brilliant to have been created just for fun.

I think the closest Dutch word to BISÁWD is 'bezwijken' or 'to succumb'.

Then take into account that in Frisian the ending or beginning -K- often changes into -TSH/TSJ- (EN: church / Fri Tsjerk/ DU: Kerk), you might get something like BISAWT. And from a -T- to a -D- is not a big step, etymologically speaking, so you could end up with BISÁWD.

Attached File  BISAUD.jpg   49.28K   4 downloads

http://archive.org/s...e/n813/mode/1up

Now if you look at this Dutch page about the etymology of the word 'bezwijken'...

http://www.etymologi...woord/bezwijken
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...db=ONW&id=ID653

... you'll notice - and I think even understandable for those who can't read Dutch - that all forms in Old nordic languages have a -K- at the end, not a -D- or a -T- .

That would make the OLB form, BISÁWD, an outsider, and certainly not a predecessor of these words.


#11639    Saru

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:37 AM

To help with our ongoing efforts to speed up the forums we are creating new continuation topics of particularly large threads ( hundreds of pages ) as these are currently the main cause of long loading times and slowdowns on the forums.

As such the Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood topic is now being continued - here.