Should the US be a Christian nation?

[Vfr]

Posted by Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...ristian_nation/

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V writes:

Should the US be a Christian nation?

That is an excellent question.

Probably so, what is the alternative?

Buddhism is OK, but Buddhism offers little in charitable work as the Christians do.

"Real Buddhists" detach themselves from life to escape samara, begging for their food, not handling money, not reproducing. Not very practical for a flourishing US economy. Even if money be damned, we can't all beg off each other. And someone has to make the electric and process the human waste. Early Buddhists realized this problem and Mahayana and Pure Land Buddhism was invented to get around some of this problem.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=508.0

In addition, the Christians can defend us in war, where the Buddhists would end up like the monks do in Burma.

Should our country be an atheist run country like China, Russia or Burma?

I think history answers that question.

Atheists like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion would never have been invented.

Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other religions. Each religion contains perfection's as well as imperfections. It is up to the practitioner or end user to use the tools in the right way.

This just proves the point that 'knowledge without application is useless' and this applies to every religion known to mankind as well as to the atheists religion of secular humanism.

The problem is not the wisdom that is defective. The problem lies with religious practitioners who are defective in their practice of this wisdom. The wisdom works - we don't work the wisdom.

Taoists tell us - "fleas come with the dog." So we must accept that every man made religion has some problems and defects within it.

But many of these religious practitioners also do good things. You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations. I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the Secular Humanism Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very topic...none had the courtesy to reply.

Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.

No, I prefer to keep things as they are and allow freedom for ALL religions, even with all their imperfections.

I believe religions do more good than harm. We can see that come to fruition with the many countries that the US has defeated in war. If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our captors, millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic cleansing rather than applying charity. Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without religion in world the killings would have been much worse in an all atheist world.

When we sperate the personalities from the principles, it makes looking at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule, where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of the church such as the Pope or Jesus.

For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these foundational Christian principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this world.

The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be treated. As we give ~ so we receive. Is this a bad policy for the US to stand behind? No one says the US has to label itself Catholic, Lutheran or Presbyterian. But the fact still remains that as you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as well.

As James Allen wrote ~ "To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their possessor."

As for the mix of spiritual based or atheistic persons in the US or the world? I shudder to think what the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0

The facts show clearly that when people are devoid of religion they generally stink as humane humans. But I also like to keep the atheists around to remind us all to come back to earth once in while and look for truth...especially when some of us start to kill in the name of God.

A Hindu sage once told me -

"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."

As such, religion and the search for spiritual values are the lesser of two evils with humans, if the other choice is a life devoid of spiritual values.

Now, spiritual values and atheists do not generally mix?

An anonymous atheist once told me:

"What is spirit or spirituality V? Without knowing what you mean by the word, one can't know what you mean. Why study something for which you not only have no evidence, but not even a definition?"

Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the wind is hard to define. Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can we define them perfectly?

If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies.

You can't see why one person is loving and kind and another person is a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction. Nor can you see what made the hate monger change into a kind and loving human.

We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all exactly.

Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect process in this life. But just as we can see the effects of the wind, while being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the difference in people that incorporate spiritual values within their lives when compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual values.

"No man is so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master." Ben Jonson

No one said we have to 'investigate it all,' but we do have to give it some thought if we wish to be at peace.

That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for ourselves. As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken and useless.

Traditional freethinkers (atheists) do not accept me as one of their group, since I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to garner wisdom to live at peace.

Traditional freethinkers do not like anything that comes from religion.

Kind of a misnomer isn't it...I'm a freethinker...but I must block out everything that comes from religion and spiritual traditions and whatever other prejudice I wish to inject into the equation?

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0

Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."

When we limit prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And realize the truth of Blake's words that "all deities reside within the human breast."

Yes, if it is religion that an atheists need to adopt, they only have to look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying secular humanism lip service will not do any good. Our talk of spiritual values must match our actions.

See:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism...ffdf501c281e7f5

It would be nice if humans acted logically and their actions only worked to make their species flourish and promoted inner peace to all - but they don't.

Humans need moral guidance or a moral conscience since they have a 'free will' of sorts.

Actually it is like this.

We are free to do what we want -- but are not free to want what we want.

All our actions have consequences, and many of our actions produce consequences that end up destroying peace. (both ours and other's peace).

This is what separates us from the animals that run solely on instinct.

Humans run by instinct as well as moral guidance. And religion offers a prepackaged set of morals for humans to adhere to.

Whether this moral conscience in divinely inspired or from Nature I don't know - that is why I am an agnostic.

But If I had to guess I would lean towards the atheistic view of Nature based conscience, since I have not found any evidence of a God such as the monotheists claim....but as an agnostic I keep looking.

And as I look with an open mind, I am reminded each day that there are powers greater than myself in charge and we are all interdependent and not independent with one another and hope one day we can all come to realize that we all share the same breath.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker

Practical Philosopher

AA#2

Edited October 3, 2007 by Vfr

[northwest]

A Christian nation where you can get sued for saying "Merry Christmas" in certain contexts ?

A Christian nation which is one of largest exporters of pornography?

Am I missing something?

[fullywired]

I shudder to think what the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists. But I also like to keep the atheists around to remind us all to come back to earth once in while and look for truth...especially when some of us start to kill in the name of God.

Imagine what it would be like run by Jerry Falwell type of christian

fullywired

[keithisco]

But as for the mix of spiritual based or atheistic persons in the US or the world? The facts show clearly that when people are devoid of religion they generally stink as humane humans.

Would you care to elucidate on this massively ignorant and generalised statement?

Humans run by instinct as well as moral guidance. And religion offers a prepackaged set of morals for humans to adhere to.

Religion offers what?!! Murder everyone that does not believe our "Special" type of religion. You are a fool to keep propounding the myth that only religion offere prepackaged morals and beliefs. They are a consequence of mankind being a social animal. That is why laws came into being "The good of the many?"

Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the wind is hard to define. Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can we define them perfectly?

Just when did the source of the wind benome hard to define?

A Hindu sage once told me -

"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."

Care to tell us WHICH Hindu Sage - or just a figment of your imagination? There is no credence in the above statement, just you trying to sound "spiritual"

All our actions have consequences, and many of our actions produce consequences that end up destroying peace. (both ours and other's peace).

This is what separates us from the animals that run solely on instinct.

ALL of our actions? Another piece of disjointed nonsense that is not supportable

This thread is a blatant attempt to either promote "jesusneverexisted" or an attempt to get more ammunition to discredit it. Either way this is a disgraceful thread.

Your thinking lacks the rigour of Philosophical thought, and lacks the understanding of Logic in those principles. The grasp of Truth as a philosophical sttribute is also sadly lacking. But there are others here with a far deeper insight into Philosophy than I have, but I am sure that they will take up the challenge you put forward.

[SphericalMiracle]

So strange how my/our side has all the evidence, all the documentation regarding the US being founded as emphatically (or emphatically enough) NOT a Christian nation, yet the entirely delusional EFFECT is as though it WAS. What's wrong with this picture? And tons of thanks to the indescribably cowardly (currently) dominant media for ENABLING the religious wackos. Here's a very eye-opening article titled THE CHRISTIAN NATION MYTH:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/far..._till/myth.html

[capeo]

Posted by Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham

Some politically conservative Christians say that America is "a Christian nation," and at this time of year, with the country saturated with Christmas imagery, it can seem that they are right. Are they? Is America a "Christian nation"? Should it be?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...ristian_nation/

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V writes:

Should the US be a Christian nation?

That is an excellent question.

Probably so, what is the alternative?

Buddhism is OK, but Buddhism offers little in charitable work as the Christians do.

"Real Buddhists" detach themselves from life to escape samara, begging for their food, not handling money, not reproducing. Not very practical for a flourishing US economy. Even if money be damned, we can't all beg off each other. And someone has to make the electric and process the human waste. Early Buddhists realized this problem and Mahayana and Pure Land Buddhism was invented to get around some of this problem.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=508.0

In addition, the Christians can defend us in war, where the Buddhists would end up like the monks do in Burma.

Should our country be an atheist run country like China, Russia or Burma?

I think history answers that question.

Atheists like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion would never have been invented.

Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other religions.

Taoists tell us - "fleas come with the dog." So we must accept that every man made religion has some problems and defects within it.

But many of these religious practitioners also do good things. You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations. I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the Secular Humanism Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very topic...none had the courtesy to reply.

Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.

No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with all their imperfections.

I believe religions do more good than harm.

I shudder to think what the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists. But I also like to keep the atheists around to remind us all to come back to earth once in while and look for truth...especially when some of us start to kill in the name of God.

But as for the mix of spiritual based or atheistic persons in the US or the world? The facts show clearly that when people are devoid of religion they generally stink as humane humans.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0

A Hindu sage once told me -

"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."

As such, religion and the search for spiritual values are the lesser of two evils with humans, if the other choice is a life devoid of spiritual values.

But spiritual values and atheists do not generally mix?

An anonymous atheist once told me:

"What is spirit or spirituality V? Without knowing what you mean by the word, one can't know what you mean. Why study something for which you not only have no evidence, but not even a definition?"

Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the wind is hard to define. Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can we define them perfectly?

If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies.

You can't see why one person is loving and kind and another person is a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction. Nor can you see what made the hate monger change into a kind and loving human.

We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all exactly.

Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect process in this life. But just as we can see the effects of the wind, while being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the difference in people that incorporate spiritual values within their lives when compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual values.

"No man is so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for a master." Ben Jonson

No one said we have to 'investigate it all,' but we do have to give it some thought if we wish to be at peace.

That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for ourselves. As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken and useless.

Traditional freethinkers (atheists) do not accept me as one of their group, since I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to garner wisdom to live at peace.

Traditional freethinkers do not like anything that comes from religion.

Kind of a misnomer isn't it...I'm a freethinker...but I must block out everything that comes from religion and spiritual traditions and whatever other prejudice I wish to inject into the equation?

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0

Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."

When we limit prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And realize the truth of Blake's words that "all deities reside within the human breast."

Yes, if it is religion that an atheists need to adopt, they only have to look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying secular humanism lip service will not do any good. Our talk of spiritual values must match our actions.

See:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism...ffdf501c281e7f5

It would be nice if humans acted logically and their actions only worked to make their species flourish and promoted inner peace to all - but they don't.

Humans need moral guidance or a moral conscience since they have a 'free will' of sorts.

Actually it is like this.

We are free to do what we want -- but are not free to want what we want.

All our actions have consequences, and many of our actions produce consequences that end up destroying peace. (both ours and other's peace).

This is what separates us from the animals that run solely on instinct.

Humans run by instinct as well as moral guidance. And religion offers a prepackaged set of morals for humans to adhere to.

Whether this moral conscience in divinely inspired or from Nature I don't know - that is why I am an agnostic.

But If I had to guess I would lean towards the atheistic view of Nature based conscience, since I have not found any evidence of a God such as the monotheists claim....but as an agnostic I keep looking.

And as I look with an open mind, I am reminded each day that there are powers greater than myself in charge and we are all interdependent and not independent with one another and hope one day we can all come to realize that we all share the same breath.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker

Practical Philosopher

AA#2

There's way to much misinformation in this to really get into but being Buddhist and an atheist I'll just to get to the root of it bring up one point. There are Christian charities, yes. There are no atheistic charities, true. Because atheism isn't an ethical framework nor does atheism posit how charitable or uncharitable an atheist would be. Charity is part of the ethical framework established in Christianity hence Christians are "supposed" to be charitable if they are following the doctrines set forth in the religion they ascribe to. Now, what you miss is the fact that most of the largest charities on the planet are secular charities. Charities that do their work without trying to convert the people they are helping. These are charities an secular humanist atheist can feel comfortable contibuting to because they don't try to convert nor do restrict aid based on religion. Good examples are Amnesty International, The Red Cross and Red Cresent, Oxfam, Doctors without Borders, UNICEF, The World Wildlife Fund, The Nature Conservancy and the Natural Resource Defense Council. I give about 8-10% of my earnings every year to AI, DWB, the WWF and NRDC because these charities do work I particularly care about and I would do more if I could afford more. That's where all you comparisons to "atheistic" regimes failing and all that other hogwash falls apart. Government by definition should be atheistic because as an entity it shouldn't espouse a religious ideology. That doesn't follow that it should enforce a ban of religion on its population. Do see the leap of logic there? Enforced atheism isn't atheism it's repression just as a government enforced religion would be. You're assuming an inherent intolerance in atheism when it isn't even an ethical or absolute moral framework that demands a certain behavior or tolerance for certain behavior. Humanism is an ethical framework. Relativism is an ethical framework. Hell, nihilism is an ethical framework. Atheism is not so it should not be implied that it should have the characteristics of one.

To answer your "question": No, the US shouldn't be a Christian nation, it should be a secular state as we claim to be.

PS, there are many Buddhist charities by the way.

[SilverCougar]

The US a christian nation?

Oh hells no. Forcing a nation with millions of people of all differen faiths and such to reconize one is a bad bad idea.

[Lotus Flower]

Perhaps they should stop worrying about everybody else's belief and get on with doing their own jobs.

Bloody cheek they have really, who are they to say who needs "spiritual guidance" and who doesn't? Are they sure they are qualified to give any "spiritual guidance" or is it a case of the blind leading the blind, I suspect it is the latter.

Why does any country have to be just one religion, why does it seem to be that everyone MUST have a religion, in fact, why don't they mind their own bloody business!

[evil inside]

Now, what you miss is the fact that most of the largest charities on the planet are secular charities. Charities that do their work without trying to convert the people they are helping. These are charities an secular humanist atheist can feel comfortable contibuting to because they don't try to convert nor do restrict aid based on religion.

EXCELLENT point!

[keithisco]

Perhaps they should stop worrying about everybody else's belief and get on with doing their own jobs.

Bloody cheek they have really, who are they to say who needs "spiritual guidance" and who doesn't? Are they sure they are qualified to give any "spiritual guidance" or is it a case of the blind leading the blind, I suspect it is the latter.

Why does any country have to be just one religion, why does it seem to be that everyone MUST have a religion, in fact, why don't they mind their own bloody business!

....and why dont they stop asking for our "Religion" on official forms?

[Buddharat]

I think if we took away the seperation of church and state if would be the downfall of our country. Personally, if that happens (the removal of that barrier), I'm packing up and leaving.

[Tiggs]

In my opinion, no nation should be of any religious affiliation. Separation of church and state is definitely the way to go. Far less wars that way.

[Lotus Flower]

....and why dont they stop asking for our "Religion" on official forms?

Ahh I think they do that in case you drop down dead or die suddenly from an accident. All to do with burial, cremation etc. Especially if the person concerned has no family and is alone.

I guess it would be horrific for a Muslim to have a funeral that was anything other than a Muslim funeral and the same goes for Christians, Bhuddists and all the other religions.

[Grandpa Greenman]

We are not and have never been a Christian nation. We are an immigrant nation (with the exception of Native Americans) of many cultures and religions. Poor Tom Jefferson must just spinning in his grave of the mess the Christian right has made of the country. To make the country a Christian would be an insult to the Jews, Buddhist, Muslims, Pagans, New Agers, etc... If you want a country of one religion go to Iran. To make this country a Christian nation would be the same thing.

and why dont they stop asking for our "Religion" on official forms?

When I want in to the hospital they ask me my religion I told them Pagan. They didn't know what that was, they were going to write check nothing I told them to write it in. Actual they do it cause of JWs and others with restrictions on health care.

[Mesobaite]

The worst thing that could ever happen to America would be for it to be labelled and act 'completely' as a christian nation. Or a budhist nation or hindu or muslim or whatever. There is poetic justice in the most powerful country in the world not being 'completely' controlled by a single religion or person for that matter.

You better never let them change it for the sake of our era....

Christians 'completely' in charge of the US economy and military might - oh my goodess what a dark day that would be for the entire world....

You americans better hurry and get those 'right-wingers' out of the White House or you'll never be the same again!

[Fluffybunny]

The founding fathers were not the "Christians" everyone made them out to be, seperation of church and state is a good thing.

[Mr Walker]

Pardon a non American offering advice. It would do no nation harm, to be a christian nation. The problems only arise when it becomes a Christian one. It is all in the capitalisation and what that implies.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Pardon a non American offering advice. It would do no nation harm, to be a christian nation. The problems only arise when it becomes a Christian one. It is all in the capitalisation and what that implies.

The trouble is not everyone is a christian or a Christian. Some of us are pagans or Pagans.

[momentarylapseofreason]

Imagine what it would be like run by Jerry Falwell type of christian

fullywired

You mean like The Handmaids Tale ?? Shudder............

[randomhit10]

i am a believer but i don't want jerry falwell running anything and many other "hollywood" type preachers....

randomhit10

[momentarylapseofreason]

i am a believer but i don't want jerry falwell running anything and many other "hollywood" type preachers....

randomhit10

I know what you mean.

It's good to know alot of you don't .

Always keep an eagle's eye on people like that.

Watch closely what they do- not just what they say.

[Jodie.Lynne]

....and why dont they stop asking for our "Religion" on official forms?

The simple responde to that ^^^^ is to leave that section blank.

Pardon a non American offering advice. It would do no nation harm, to be a christian nation. The problems only arise when it becomes a Christian one. It is all in the capitalisation and what that implies.

As opposed to being a jewish/muslim/hindu nation? why pick one over any other?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before this question can be properly replied to, one must determine what is meant by a "christian" nation. Would the religion of the carpenters son be the official state religion? would other faiths be made illegal ( ala some Arab nations) ? Would all laws be based on christian dogma? Would non-christians be penalized for their "non-beleif"? Would there be christian tribunals, making citizens answerable to a religious court?

[brad873]

i thought teachin evolution was banned in some states

[chaoszerg]

The simple responde to that ^^^^ is to leave that section blank.

Lol I remember once putting down spiritulist Klingon on one of those forms. And they accepted it

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Lol I remember once putting down spiritulist Klingon on one of those forms. And they accepted it

Is there was any such thing as a spiritualist Klingon!!!