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Venezuela's Hugo Chavez dies aged 58


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#46    and then

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 03:42 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 07 March 2013 - 10:46 PM, said:

Could you really blame either of them? With Israel and the US knocking on their door armed to the teeth.

The US tried to kill him before. What do you suggest someone like that do?

The US had been screwing over the bulk of Venezuela for a long time as I outlined before. Consider yourself in their position, what would you do?

You understand this hate is all because of the excessive greed of the higher ups in the US?
What I understand, Orcseeker, is that some here would blame the US and Israel for their halitosis and hemorrhoids before they'd look to any other cause, no matter how rational.  It gets old, man.  Or are you suggesting that the US had some intention to invade ...uh... Venezuela?  Really?  A'jad and Chavez had as their reason for existence the downfall of the US.  It made them look powerful to the home folks.  Chavez, for all the good he did for the poor in Venezuela was still just a thug.  I'm not sorry that he's gone but neither do I gloat over his corpse.  He lived his life the way he wanted to and did some good so he's no worse than most in that respect, but he HATED MY country.  And I don't respect people who think they can just blame America for every hardship that comes down the pike.  Newsflash about greed, man, it's UNIVERSAL.  The US doesn't hold a patent on human frailty or evil.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#47    acidhead

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:32 AM

View Postand then, on 08 March 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

What I understand, Orcseeker, is that some here would blame the US and Israel for their halitosis and hemorrhoids before they'd look to any other cause, no matter how rational.  It gets old, man.  Or are you suggesting that the US had some intention to invade ...uh... Venezuela?  Really?  A'jad and Chavez had as their reason for existence the downfall of the US.  It made them look powerful to the home folks.  Chavez, for all the good he did for the poor in Venezuela was still just a thug.  I'm not sorry that he's gone but neither do I gloat over his corpse.  He lived his life the way he wanted to and did some good so he's no worse than most in that respect, but he HATED MY country.  And I don't respect people who think they can just blame America for every hardship that comes down the pike.  Newsflash about greed, man, it's UNIVERSAL.  The US doesn't hold a patent on human frailty or evil.

Israel?  What's Israel?  Never heard of them except in fiction books.

Edited by acidhead, 08 March 2013 - 07:33 AM.

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#48    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

View Postand then, on 08 March 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

What I understand, Orcseeker, is that some here would blame the US and Israel for their halitosis and hemorrhoids before they'd look to any other cause, no matter how rational.  It gets old, man.  Or are you suggesting that the US had some intention to invade ...uh... Venezuela?  Really?  A'jad and Chavez had as their reason for existence the downfall of the US.  It made them look powerful to the home folks.  Chavez, for all the good he did for the poor in Venezuela was still just a thug.  I'm not sorry that he's gone but neither do I gloat over his corpse.  He lived his life the way he wanted to and did some good so he's no worse than most in that respect, but he HATED MY country.  And I don't respect people who think they can just blame America for every hardship that comes down the pike.  Newsflash about greed, man, it's UNIVERSAL.  The US doesn't hold a patent on human frailty or evil.
The CIA were firmly implicated in the attempted coup against Venezuela in order to put in Chavez' place a compliant dictator.
That is a form of invasion in my book - so yes I think Chavez had a genuine reason for been concerned about the USA attempting such a thing again.

Judge a country by its deeds not its rhetoric.
There are plenty of countries with plenty of justifiable reasons to hate your country - live with it.

Br Cornelius

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#49    Yamato

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:37 AM

View Postacidhead, on 08 March 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Israel?  What's Israel?  Never heard of them except in fiction books.
Oh, they weren't until Season 2 of the popular 'Bogeymen" series.

Israel isn't blamed by the likes of me for anything beyond what anyone else is blamed for, that is, beyond their own actions.  But in 'Bogeymen' the heroes battle the vampires who can't blame Israel for anything, especially their own actions.

There's a lot of crap places in the world, Israel is hardly alone in that.   I just don't agree with giving a dime to any of them, and though that's as fair a standard as is humanly possible, it's not to the Israel-firsters who act like they live in the 'United States of Israel' (see Chuck Hagel, the new US Secretary of Defense).

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#50    Yes_Man

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:44 AM

Why do  i have a feeling this thread will be closed just because Israel is mentioned?


#51    Orcseeker

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:27 PM

View Postand then, on 08 March 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

What I understand, Orcseeker, is that some here would blame the US and Israel for their halitosis and hemorrhoids before they'd look to any other cause, no matter how rational.  It gets old, man.  Or are you suggesting that the US had some intention to invade ...uh... Venezuela?  Really?  A'jad and Chavez had as their reason for existence the downfall of the US.  It made them look powerful to the home folks.  Chavez, for all the good he did for the poor in Venezuela was still just a thug.  I'm not sorry that he's gone but neither do I gloat over his corpse.  He lived his life the way he wanted to and did some good so he's no worse than most in that respect, but he HATED MY country.  And I don't respect people who think they can just blame America for every hardship that comes down the pike.  Newsflash about greed, man, it's UNIVERSAL.  The US doesn't hold a patent on human frailty or evil.

As I said before. The US screwed over most of the populace due to a very corrupt government that only placed wealth in the rich while the rest lived in extreme poverty, they exploited the fact that the rich had lots of power and wanted to keep it, as well as a two class socioeconomic society. I'd say the US had quite a lot to answer for. As Cornelius suggested before, they effectively invaded Venezuela.

Now it seems like when the US is poking the stick it's completely justifiable but if someone pokes them back, they're some evil corrupt villain. Chavez called Bush the devil and Fox News stupid... Aren't those things at least somewhat true?

Unless of course you think Bush was a great president that did well... Any good things at all? Or Fox News a completely unbiased and fair news station that spreads very well researched and unskewed information? Then ok.

The thing is, if that was happening to your country, I bet you'd be outraged.

Edited by Orcseeker, 08 March 2013 - 12:28 PM.


#52    and then

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:44 PM

View PostOrcseeker, on 08 March 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

As I said before. The US screwed over most of the populace due to a very corrupt government that only placed wealth in the rich while the rest lived in extreme poverty, they exploited the fact that the rich had lots of power and wanted to keep it, as well as a two class socioeconomic society. I'd say the US had quite a lot to answer for. As Cornelius suggested before, they effectively invaded Venezuela.

Now it seems like when the US is poking the stick it's completely justifiable but if someone pokes them back, they're some evil corrupt villain. Chavez called Bush the devil and Fox News stupid... Aren't those things at least somewhat true?

Unless of course you think Bush was a great president that did well... Any good things at all? Or Fox News a completely unbiased and fair news station that spreads very well researched and unskewed information? Then ok.

The thing is, if that was happening to your country, I bet you'd be outraged.
I voted for Bush the first time because I agreed with his policy stances.  The second time because there was no better choice from the conservative side.  And I, along with the great majority of Americans who consume cable news, watch Fox not because it is completely bias free, but because it at least has SOME balance.  The rest - CNN, MSNBC, CBS and ABC are so completely whored out to the left that they are shameless.  The ideology of the Left in US politics is gaining sway now and as they consolidate power and have their policies implemented more fully they will at some point be held accountable for the results (I guess).  But they rely on low info individuals as a power base and that base can turn on you pretty quickly when the gravy train come to a stop.  They idolize people like Chavez because he played Robin Hood with the country's resources but also because he demonized the "rich" Yankee Imperialists.  It's not enough to take what the producers create - they have to vilify them to salve their consciences afterward.  
Eventually when everyone is at the same level of mediocrity or even poverty, those who produce excellence will rise to the top again because that is human nature.  It is the only system that creates wealth.  And it is just human nature to lust after such wealth and in some cases anyway, to work for it.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#53    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:51 PM

View Postand then, on 08 March 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

I voted for Bush the first time because I agreed with his policy stances.  The second time because there was no better choice from the conservative side.  And I, along with the great majority of Americans who consume cable news, watch Fox not because it is completely bias free, but because it at least has SOME balance.  The rest - CNN, MSNBC, CBS and ABC are so completely whored out to the left that they are shameless.  The ideology of the Left in US politics is gaining sway now and as they consolidate power and have their policies implemented more fully they will at some point be held accountable for the results (I guess).  But they rely on low info individuals as a power base and that base can turn on you pretty quickly when the gravy train come to a stop.  They idolize people like Chavez because he played Robin Hood with the country's resources but also because he demonized the "rich" Yankee Imperialists.  It's not enough to take what the producers create - they have to vilify them to salve their consciences afterward.  
Eventually when everyone is at the same level of mediocrity or even poverty, those who produce excellence will rise to the top again because that is human nature.  It is the only system that creates wealth.  And it is just human nature to lust after such wealth and in some cases anyway, to work for it.
A country who fosters inequality in its own borders and in other countries borders because it allows cheap extraction of resources is going to have a socially malign effect on the world.  The end point of such thinking is to reintroduce slavery.
Socially progressive countries are more stable and more productive overall - isn't that a goal which we should all be aiming for ??

Br Cornelius

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#54    and then

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:55 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

A country who fosters inequality in its own borders and in other countries borders because it allows cheap extraction of resources is going to have a socially malign effect on the world.  The end point of such thinking is to reintroduce slavery.
Socially progressive countries are more stable and more productive overall - isn't that a goal which we should all be aiming for ??

Br Cornelius
Yes we should.  But I am unaware of one that has prospered long term in history.  No exceptional thing that, since I am not a scholar, but if a country like that has existed can you direct me to it?  The problem with all human systems of government and economics is that they seem to do a poor job on one level or another of accounting for human weakness, greed and pride.  Capitalism seems to be the best at using those deficiencies to some advantage for periods of time.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#55    Yes_Man

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 02:22 PM

Socialism never really worked for Venezuela, for the poor people yes it worked, but it did not solve anything. The police are under paid when they they do theirr duties, so in  order to become rich they become corrupt


#56    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 03:57 PM

View Postand then, on 08 March 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yes we should.  But I am unaware of one that has prospered long term in history.  No exceptional thing that, since I am not a scholar, but if a country like that has existed can you direct me to it?  The problem with all human systems of government and economics is that they seem to do a poor job on one level or another of accounting for human weakness, greed and pride.  Capitalism seems to be the best at using those deficiencies to some advantage for periods of time.
My main critique here is that you take afront when a country attempts to resist the imperialistic influence of the USA . There are no easy solutions, but why defend the indefensible.
The first step in finding a solution is to admit the root of the problem. Meddling in another countries affairs for greed is the root of most of the world problem. We should start pointing the finger rather than defending the perpetrator.

Br Cornelius

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#57    Corp

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:48 PM

So it seems they decided to treat Chavez like Lenin and Mao and have him laying in state for all time...or until his rivals win an election. :P A touch creepy if you ask me. Just let him have his rest.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#58    and then

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

The CIA were firmly implicated in the attempted coup against Venezuela in order to put in Chavez' place a compliant dictator.
That is a form of invasion in my book - so yes I think Chavez had a genuine reason for been concerned about the USA attempting such a thing again.

Judge a country by its deeds not its rhetoric.
There are plenty of countries with plenty of justifiable reasons to hate your country - live with it.

Br Cornelius
Your opinions I will listen to brutha - your instructions you can stick up your backside.

Edited by and then, 08 March 2013 - 08:02 PM.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#59    and then

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:08 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

My main critique here is that you take afront when a country attempts to resist the imperialistic influence of the USA . There are no easy solutions, but why defend the indefensible.
The first step in finding a solution is to admit the root of the problem. Meddling in another countries affairs for greed is the root of most of the world problem. We should start pointing the finger rather than defending the perpetrator.

Br Cornelius
Fair enough.  I will be the first to admit that my country has been very heavy handed around the world since the end of WWII.  We have done things with both good and bad intent and with either there have been some negative consequences - my sticking point with those who constantly belittle my home is that they NEVER mention any good that America has done in the world.  From helping after catastrophes to acting as an engine to the global economy for decades - none of that matters.  It's all about - what have you done for me lately?  I resent the asinine people who ignore those things and use America as some sort of foil for every problem that exists in the world.  Screw them, and the horse they rode in on   :tu: :w00t:

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#60    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

If I could see a body of good works motivated by anything other than self interest I might even agree with you.
Until that day arrives we are going to have to disagree :tu:

Its very much like our own apologists for the British Empire who say we did it for the good of the colonized - bull**** !

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 March 2013 - 08:22 PM.

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