158 replies to this topic

[Darkwind]

freetoroam, on 16 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

How is this a hate against islam? i would more say it started of as a hate towards Chritians. BUT, my initial reaction was exactly the same, why single out one religion when it should have said all of them?
I would not know if a child was a christian, but would if it were a muslim, mainly because the girl is wearing the head gear and so is the mother....just like the authodox Jews will be wearing clothing so others can identify what they stand for.
I am more threatened by the child being brought up to follow islam in a fanatical way than i am with a child brought up as a christian.....hopefull not all muslm children will go to Pakistan to learn how to hate the West, but the fanatical parents are more likely to be doing in what ever country they live in, its the influence it has on the child when they grow up which is the issue, and if it has affected the way they feel about their fellow human and hate is involved, then it only be a bad thing.

They all scare me equally. Fanatical Christians and Jews can be just as bad as fanatical Muslims.   Fundamentalism seems to put people on the road to nuttiness no matter what religion it is.

[freetoroam]

Darkwind, on 16 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

They all scare me equally. Fanatical Christians and Jews can be just as bad as fanatical Muslims.   Fundamentalism seems to put people on the road to nuttiness no matter what religion it is.

Absolutely!
But where I live its the fanatical muslims who are making the loudest noise.!!

[Knight Of Shadows]

freetoroam, on 16 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

How is this a hate against islam? i would more say it started of as a hate towards Chritians. BUT, my initial reaction was exactly the same, why single out one religion when it should have said all of them?
I would not know if a child was a christian, but would if it were a muslim, mainly because the girl is wearing the head gear and so is the mother....just like the authodox Jews will be wearing clothing so others can identify what they stand for.
I am more threatened by the child being brought up to follow islam in a fanatical way than i am with a child brought up as a christian.....hopefull not all muslm children will go to Pakistan to learn how to hate the West, but the fanatical parents are more likely to be doing in what ever country they live in, its the influence it has on the child when they grow up which is the issue, and if it has affected the way they feel about their fellow human and hate is involved, then it only be a bad thing.

sorry i should have been more clear .. he said extreme islamic faiths .. there is extreme muslims not extreme islam faith
as there is extreme christians , but the faith it self is not extreme only individuals are and it applies to all religions
and based on previous discussions with palidin my response was this way

[Purplos]

Quote

I just love how people jump into conclusions without proof.  I never said I was anti religious or thought it was ALL fake.

Jump to what conclusion? Was I specifically stating you were anti-religious? Talk about jumping to conclusions. I was speaking in the general sense only. My goodness. I have no interest in your personal belief system whatsoever. lol

[Ryu]

There is a difference between instructing someone on healthy eating or how to get along with others in the real world and badgering, threatening and coercing someone to "believe" in an invented deity.

[TheBanana]

i think it depends on how far the parents go to force it onto their kid.

i think its ok for a parent to take their child to church with them (or any other religious building), my problem is with people who are too pushy with religion on their kid, or try and hide the existence of other beliefs from them, or teach them hate.

if the child chooses to follow a different religion, or wants to stop going to church, they should be allowed to without the parents being angry at them or trying to force them back
kids should also be taught about other beliefs as well, like other religions and also things like evolution-if you take away the other options, there is no room for the child to choose, i dont like it when parents homeschool their kids for the purpose of teaching them only their religion, or try and get things against their religion banned from schools.
children should not be involved in any form of preaching, or protesting things against their parents religion
parents shouldnt teach their kids to hate people who do things against their religion, or make comments which are racist or homophobic.

[and then]

Darkwind, on 16 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

They all scare me equally. Fanatical Christians and Jews can be just as bad as fanatical Muslims.   Fundamentalism seems to put people on the road to nuttiness no matter what religion it is.

Darkwind I pay attention to your statements because in general I either agree with them or at least understand and respect your logic.  But this statement is just wrong imo.  INDIVIDUAL persons of fanatical observance of these faiths may be equal but as groups there is absolutely no comparison in degree or kind.  Islamists have been responsible for nearly every conflict on the planet for the last couple of decades.  Being PC about this situation is no longer acceptable.  At least not for people who want to remain free of religious oppression unlike anything the West has ever seen.

[Coffey]

pallidin, on 16 November 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

This can happen. Not only with Christian faiths, but also with extremest Islamic faiths.
So sad to those young children.

Edit: And with all "faiths" I imagine...

Why do you single out extremist islamic faiths? What about extremistt Zionist jews and extremist Zionist Christians. They can be just as bad and soemtimes worse! What single out one religion like that is very biased and and hateful.

All extremists cause problems, no matter what specific religion they follow.

and then, on 16 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Darkwind I pay attention to your statements because in general I either agree with them or at least understand and respect your logic.  But this statement is just wrong imo.  INDIVIDUAL persons of fanatical observance of these faiths may be equal but as groups there is absolutely no comparison in degree or kind.  Islamists have been responsible for nearly every conflict on the planet for the last couple of decades.  Being PC about this situation is no longer acceptable.  At least not for people who want to remain free of religious oppression unlike anything the West has ever seen.

Yeah cause Hitler was a muslim... Oh wait he was a Christian.

Extremists in any religion are just as bad as each other. One could also argue those conflicts where mostly caused by extremist jews actually.

Edited by Coffey, 16 November 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Darkwind, on 16 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

I think forcing your beliefs on a child is a good way to get them to reject your belief system. Children become teenagers and it the nature of the beast to rebel. I know a lot of Pagans who can't tell their parents about their beliefs, because their parents will go off the nut.  Our high priestess is in this situation and she is an adult. This can happen in all religions not just Christianity.  If you want to go to Church and you have young children you can't just leave them home, but there comes a point when child need to investigate their own ideas and beliefs. They should have the freedom to do so.  There are people who actually reject their own child because they don't believe as they do. That happened to a friend in high school, her folks kick out because she didn't want to be a J.W. That is very poor parenting if you ask me. They should have been charged with neglect.

Thats an interesting take on modern parenting and one with many ramifications. Where does a parent's right to impose discipline or the parents beliefs (in anything) begin and end? Currently we are caring for a 15 year old who left home because her parents were "too controling" Turns out they wanted her to clean her room, not go out late at night, help with looking after younger children etc.

We are lined up to care for another who throws rocks at the house, destroys things in in it  Screams abuse for hours on end, and is beginning to harm  herself and others because she rejects her parents right to "control her"  The doctor they took her to, after the police were called in, told them jus tto let her have her way in everything.The police say her parents can only physically restrain her if she is harming herself or another. If she choses to walk into town at midnight and walk the streets they cant physiclaly stop her She is 13 Her options now are to live with us or be put into government care. Her behaviour is destroying the parents relationship and altering the behaviour of younger children to become violent and disruptive as well..

Where a child or teenager is in conflict with a parents basic beliefs values and moralities the parent's (as the  responsible adults who run the household) wishes must prevail. The only other option is indeed for a child to leave home, voluntarilly or otherwise, to live as they wish to live. The problem is that modern western  teenagers have rights, and an inflated sense of those rights, and no responsibilities or legal obligations.

[Bling]

Christianity was forced onto me by my parents from as young as I can remember. It was never a choice of mine to read the bible, it was just another one of my story books - I had a very pretty childrens illustrated bible, and I was told the stories I read were real....no questions asked. To be indoctrinated at a young age resulted in me carrying on my faith into adulthood and being brainwashed. But as my life experiences increased I began to question what I was told, it didn't make sense to me anymore, I found it all unbelievable. So now I choose to be an atheist!

[Mr Walker]

Bling, on 16 November 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Christianity was forced onto me by my parents from as young as I can remember. It was never a choice of mine to read the bible, it was just another one of my story books - I had a very pretty childrens illustrated bible, and I was told the stories I read were real....no questions asked. To be indoctrinated at a young age resulted in me carrying on my faith into adulthood and being brainwashed. But as my life experiences increased I began to question what I was told, it didn't make sense to me anymore, I found it all unbelievable. So now I choose to be an atheist!

And i think that is a pretty normal and common experience To me however it doesnt mean your parents were wrong. They taught you their own values and beliefs. As an adult you have developed your own. Some children rebel against all parents values etc Others comply and accept them throughout their life. Most "pick and chose' elements which work for them.  I retained my parents' moralities beliefs and ethics because they were good ones which worked for the betterment of my self and my society.

I do know adults (someo fwhom i grew up with)  who were taiught to be atheists as children but developed a sense of spirituality and belief as adults to meet their own personal needs in life. Their needs were different from those of their parents and so their beliefs evolved differntly. It works both ways.

One bloke i went to school with, from a very atheist family, served as a navigator on planes in Vietnam. He developed his own spiritual beliefs as an adult, and for some time, in the seventies, was smuggling bibles into the old soviet union. That was almost as dangerous as flying in vietnam.

Later he went on to become a pastor of a lutheran church. I am sure he teaches his own children his spiritual beliefs vaiues and reasons behind them. At school he was so clever we called him the professor, yet despite being educated, at home and school as an atheist, he found god in his life.

[Bling]

Mr Walker, on 16 November 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

however it doesnt mean your parents were wrong. They taught you their own values and beliefs.

I think it was wrong to tell me it was correct and without question. They didn't give me a balanced opinion. Moral values and religious beliefs are not the same thing, atheists are moral too.

[markdohle]

CelestialStar, on 16 November 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

I have no intention of superimposing my will of religion (or disbelief thereof) on them,
i try not to superimpose at all

That is not possible, unless you don't live out of your beliefs.  Parents need to be good parents, beliefs are a guide for children, many choose after, when they are teenagers to go another path.  I feel a parent fails when the do not pass on their faith, if it is important to them so it should be important to their children.  Unless of course you don't have strong beliefs, then yes, what else can you do ;-).  To use religion as a source of punishment is probably a big mistake.  Sharing and forcing are two different things.  When a child is taught rightly, then when they reach the age of say 14 or 15 then they should be free to decide without fighting etc.  Good topic.

peace
mark

Edited by markdohle, 16 November 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[markdohle]

Bling, on 16 November 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Christianity was forced onto me by my parents from as young as I can remember. It was never a choice of mine to read the bible, it was just another one of my story books - I had a very pretty childrens illustrated bible, and I was told the stories I read were real....no questions asked. To be indoctrinated at a young age resulted in me carrying on my faith into adulthood and being brainwashed. But as my life experiences increased I began to question what I was told, it didn't make sense to me anymore, I found it all unbelievable. So now I choose to be an atheist!

Of couse, children grow up all the time and leave the faith or path of their parents.  I have friends who were raise by atheist parents, and it was as they believe forced on them, so now they think otherwise.  I believe the parents of my friend had the right to pass on what they believed and he was able to make a choice, we all do.  However, you were not brainwashed.  You need to look up what that means.  I believe that our media is probably closer to brain washing us all than any religlion out there.  Without a place to stand from, then people can be pulled in any direction without any way to compare and there is a lot of rubbish out there being I belived forced on our young people, mostly for gain and nothing else.

Also your conclusions, thought out I am sure, is an opinion, not some kind of truth.  Atheist become christians and would disagree with you on what you said.  I wish you well on your journey, it is not always an easy one that is for sure.

Peace
mark

[pallidin]

Of course I hate radical muslims, and I"M DAMN PROUD TO SAY THAT.

They are nothing more than dangerous fruitcakes with guns.

Good God, they want to(and have) destroy historical monuments just because it offends their faith.
Yeah, I hate them. With a passion.