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Do people believe in religion because they...

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#16    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 07:00 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 09 June 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Yeah, apparently it's turtles all the way down. :lol:

:tu: I was waiting on that.

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#17    Royal

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 07:38 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 09 June 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:

So you have no evidence of a soul and you cannot produce one. In fact, no one can produce one and no one can provide evidence of one. I think it's pretty safe to assume that something with no empirical evidence isn't real. Like the giant turtle upon whose shell the Earth rests, right?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             So what you're saying is that the earth sits on the back of a turtle. Wow I thought I had heard everything. Can you prove that? Empirically?

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#18    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 07:55 AM

View PostRoyal, on 09 June 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

So what you're saying is that the earth sits on the back of a turtle. Wow I thought I had heard everything. Can you prove that? Empirically?

Yes, because I have been in love. Makes sense, right?

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#19    libstaK

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 09:50 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 09 June 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:


What interests me more is those Christians who do accept scientific findings. Those that accept modern cosmology, evolution and so forth. It seems to me that these things are incompatible with basic Christian beliefs. The belief in a perfect creation, the fall of man and Christ-given redemption. These things don't seem consistent with man emerging from purposeless interactions of matter.
As one of those "christians" I could say that the mechanics of existence in the material realm are available to be explored and explained by science in their entirety without having any impact on the spiritual aspects of existence that give rise to faith and belief in God.

I see no problem at all and applaud scientific discovery as an evolution in human thought and opportunity for providence, God helps those who help themselves put at it's simplest.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#20    Arbenol68

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostlibstaK, on 09 June 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

As one of those "christians" I could say that the mechanics of existence in the material realm are available to be explored and explained by science in their entirety without having any impact on the spiritual aspects of existence that give rise to faith and belief in God.

I see no problem at all and applaud scientific discovery as an evolution in human thought and opportunity for providence, God helps those who help themselves put at it's simplest.

Hi Libstak,
I understand that and completely respect your right to your beliefs. I see no logical contradiction between embracing a  belief in a god and acceptance of established scientific principles. Although as you're probably aware I don't personally believe in God.

However, my enquiry was about how this impacts directly on the acceptance of basic tenets of Christianity. As I understand it (and I'm happy to be put right on this) Christ died so that we may find redemption for our sins. And humans are sinners as a direct result of the fall of man when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Before this, God's creation was perfect.

It appears to me that one has to accept the creation as told in Genesis to believe all of this. I understand that young earth creationists do so, and have read that they don't think too much of Christians that see it is metaphor or allegorical.

To me, a Christian such as yourself has a much greater rational grip of the world. But is the creationist right to view you as not a 'true-believer'


#21    White Crane Feather

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 09 June 2012 - 06:50 AM, said:



So you have no evidence of a soul and you cannot produce one. In fact, no one can produce one and no one can provide evidence of one. I think it's pretty safe to assume that something with no empirical evidence isn't real. Like the giant turtle upon whose shell the Earth rests, right?
By those standards gravity does not exist. We measure things by their effects. Just because we can't reduce the effect to something understandable dosnt mean it dosn't exist. The soul is that pinpoint of self Awareness and hall of mirrors behind the eyes. and no we do not fully understand why it exists as aposed us just being a non sentient biological robot.

Your reasoning of why there is no soul is a Petitio Principii fallacy.

It is not illogical to be spiritual or religious. But this is a standard topic on these forums and I'm just tired of repeating myself. Look around a bit, you might be surprised to discovery spirituality is for more robust than you think it is.

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#22    libstaK

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 11:05 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 09 June 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Hi Libstak,
I understand that and completely respect your right to your beliefs. I see no logical contradiction between embracing a  belief in a god and acceptance of established scientific principles. Although as you're probably aware I don't personally believe in God.

However, my enquiry was about how this impacts directly on the acceptance of basic tenets of Christianity. As I understand it (and I'm happy to be put right on this) Christ died so that we may find redemption for our sins. And humans are sinners as a direct result of the fall of man when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. Before this, God's creation was perfect.

It appears to me that one has to accept the creation as told in Genesis to believe all of this. I understand that young earth creationists do so, and have read that they don't think too much of Christians that see it is metaphor or allegorical.

To me, a Christian such as yourself has a much greater rational grip of the world. But is the creationist right to view you as not a 'true-believer'

They may well see it that way but I see ...

"Thou shalt not judge lest thou be judged, for in whatsoever manner ye judge so shall ye be judged"
"As you sow, so shall you reap"

Mechanical laws of cause and effect whose profound effect on the human spirit are so easily ignored in the battle to be "right".

More powerful and of true inspirational value to me are:
"Love one another as I have loved you" personified and shown to be absolutely true in Christ by his final words before his death "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".

I follow that which is honest, humble and has integrity in spirit when I choose to follow the teachings of christ.  I also think there is enough in just those simple quotes to involve my mind and life to a life time's work with no time left over for the judging of the choices others may choose to make for themselves.  I think self knowledge aka: removing the log from my own eye is paramount - what comes after that only the clear sighted could tell us. :w00t:

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#23    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:20 PM

View PostRoyal, on 09 June 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I take it you've never been in love or witnessed the birth  of you're child.

I have given birth twice now... Actually most recently just had a new son  ( 5 weeks ago ) .. and I always thought  what it would be like for me to be able to see my child  being born?  I would have loved to have seen it...but it is a bit awkward   lol..  My husband did though, he said it was overwhelming, teared up full of joy....   He was lucky..  I envied him  lol <-- one reason why envy is not wrong  ha ha ..I envied him in a good way...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 June 2012 - 12:29 PM.

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#24    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:31 PM

View PostRoyal, on 09 June 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

So what you're saying is that the earth sits on the back of a turtle. Wow I thought I had heard everything. Can you prove that? Empirically?
Turtles all the way down" is a jocular expression of the infinite regress problem in cosmology posed by the "unmoved mover" paradox. The phrase was popularized by Stephen Hawking in 1988. The "turtle" metaphor in the anecdote represents a popular notion of a "primitive cosmological myth", viz. theflat earth supported on the back of a World Turtle  ..  .http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 09 June 2012 - 12:32 PM.

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#25    Royal

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:12 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 09 June 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Turtles all the way down" is a jocular expression of the infinite regress problem in cosmology posed by the "unmoved mover" paradox. The phrase was popularized by Stephen Hawking in 1988. The "turtle" metaphor in the anecdote represents a popular notion of a "primitive cosmological myth", viz. theflat earth supported on the back of a World Turtle  ..  .http://en.wikipedia....ll_the_way_down
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Thank you, never heard that expression before. I can be taught!

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#26    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:25 PM

View PostRoyal, on 09 June 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

Thank you, never heard that expression before. I can be taught!

I'll be honest... I only heard of it  a while ago myself.. I was watching some science documentary and spotted it...

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#27    Euphorbia

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 02:25 PM

View PostTimonthy, on 09 June 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Strength of emotion is not evidence of the existence of a soul. There is no evidence, it's just another strange concept...

Agreed.

The concept of a soul (in my opinion) is entirely of religious construct. While it is used to describe our existence on Earth, it is more or less to the religious something that either goes to Heaven or Hell. Since I don't believe either place exists, I don't believe in a soul per se........just that which makes us conscious. It won't happen in our lifetime, but I believe the human brain will someday be completely mapped out and all of those mysteries will be solved......

Edited by Euphorbia, 09 June 2012 - 02:26 PM.

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#28    jbondo

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 02:40 PM

I will continue to have Faith in God and His Word. This doesn't mean that science has no place in my life as I love science, but if you look at science from an unbiased perspective, you can find as many "way out there" theories as nonbelievers seem to see in Christianity.

If you really examine the scientific thought process regarding the very existence of "everything" and how it came to be, it sounds more than a little crazy. Furthermore, as a Christian, I can't pick and choose what I accept from God's Word to satify science. However, it is unfortunate that 'many' nonbelievers just assume that Christians have no place for science when nothing could be further from the truth.

One thing I believe in perpetuity is that because more and more Americans push God out each day, the country is suffering for it. Why are we seeing people shooting up schools and workplaces, etc... almost weekly now? Americans now accept sinful nature as being normal and pop culture/the media is what they look to as their God.

God's influence used to be everywhere, even in Hollywood if you can believe it. If a child attempts to pray in school today, it's paramount to a crime.

Unfortunately, nonbelievers have a jaded view of Christians and frankly, it's because of cue's from the media and those who do outlandinsh things while using Christianity as a cover. The media loves to bash Chrisianity as we see only the crazy stories or when a Christian screws up. We never hear about the missionaries who risk their lives daily helping the needy in third world nations. If it were not for Christians, the death/homeless/crime rate would be much greater than it is now.

Getting back on point:

True Christians are Bible believers who love their neighbor as they love themselves. They also have plenty of room for scientific discovery.


#29    Euphorbia

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 03:22 PM

View Postjbondo, on 09 June 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I will continue to have Faith in God and His Word. This doesn't mean that science has no place in my life as I love science, but if you look at science from an unbiased perspective, you can find as many "way out there" theories as nonbelievers seem to see in Christianity.

If you really examine the scientific thought process regarding the very existence of "everything" and how it came to be, it sounds more than a little crazy. Furthermore, as a Christian, I can't pick and choose what I accept from God's Word to satify science. However, it is unfortunate that 'many' nonbelievers just assume that Christians have no place for science when nothing could be further from the truth.

I personally don't assume anything with Christians except that they believe in god.

Science may have some "way out theories", but if they don't stand up to peer review they are quickly discarded.

Quote

One thing I believe in perpetuity is that because more and more Americans push God out each day, the country is suffering for it. Why are we seeing people shooting up schools and workplaces, etc... almost weekly now? Americans now accept sinful nature as being normal and pop culture/the media is what they look to as their God.

God's influence used to be everywhere, even in Hollywood if you can believe it. If a child attempts to pray in school today, it's paramount to a crime.

Do you have proof that lack of religion is the cause of "people shooting up schools and workplaces"? I think we just have more media outlets that not only get you the news quicker, but seem to like to report the negative news.....as that seems to be what sells the best.

Quote

Unfortunately, nonbelievers have a jaded view of Christians and frankly, it's because of cue's from the media and those who do outlandinsh things while using Christianity as a cover. The media loves to bash Chrisianity as we see only the crazy stories or when a Christian screws up. We never hear about the missionaries who risk their lives daily helping the needy in third world nations. If it were not for Christians, the death/homeless/crime rate would be much greater than it is now.

Getting back on point:

True Christians are Bible believers who love their neighbor as they love themselves. They also have plenty of room for scientific discovery.

Who's to say what a true Christian is? Every Christian seems to have an opinion on what it is to be a "true Christian". So much so that I can't honestly take any Christian's word on it.

You are another person generalizing non-believers. I don't have a jaded view of Christians in general.......just those with fundamentalist attitudes that say I am going to hell if I don't believe......how could I not feel jaded by this particular group?

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#30    Dash--

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 04:45 PM

As a Christian,I feel as though i have the right to define my belief.Not some other person who formulates a definition to their own.
My definition? A person who adheres to the moral teachings of Jesus(man or myth).I realize this puts me in several categories.I just choose the title to my belief as Christianity.But it could be Buddhist as well.Which I know would cause much of my brethren to say I'm blasphemous.lol
I also know that these same morals were around long before Jesus time,but,in a manner, he is credited with the spreading of the teachings worldwide.Many people find solice in his teachings.
I'm one of them,so I call myself a Christian.Maybe tomorrow Buddhist?lol

As for fundamentalists telling you you're going to hell if you don't believe.lol
I don't remember Jesus damning Thomas to hell for his doubt.

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