52 replies to this topic

[PersonFromPorlock]

Abramelin, on 16 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Found a strange story that might 'prove' the Vikings even ended up in California after traveling along the North West Passage from Greenland during a warmer period in the Middle Ages:

Starting with the sheer impossibility of there actually being anyone named "Myrtle Botts" outside of a P.G. Wodehouse story....

Edited by PersonFromPorlock, 16 January 2013 - 06:57 PM.

[lightly]

Abramelin, on 16 January 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Found a strange story that might 'prove' the Vikings even ended up in California after traveling along the North West Passage from Greenland during a warmer period in the Middle Ages:


SAN DIEGO COUNTY
Anza-Borrego Desert State Park - For sheer volume of strange phenomena, California's largest state park must also be its most mysterious as well.
  *snip*

I spent a couple winters mostly right in that area ..  Salton Sea and Anza Borrego Dessert ..  Awesome place !  to a northern possum like me lol.   Anyway,  i can see how a boat , at one time or another,   might have ended up nearly anywhere in the lowest lying areas of that place . And then have been partially covered by the persistent rock slides.
  I wondered why i always got the feeling of sitting on a sea bottom in that place!

 colodlt.gif   3.16K   5 downloads      Saltonseadrainagemap.jpg   114.66K   6 downloads     Agua Caliente (where the dessert ship story takes place)  is just West of the Salton Sea.

[Abramelin]

PersonFromPorlock, on 16 January 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Starting with the sheer impossibility of there actually being anyone named "Myrtle Botts" outside of a P.G. Wodehouse story....

http://www.death-rec...-Botts/Kentucky

http://search.ancest...&gss=seo&ghc=20

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 January 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Abramelin]

DNA tests debunk blond Inuit legend
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...lond031028.html


In 1910 Vilhjalmur Stefansson visited the Copper Inuit inhabiting southwestern Victoria Island (Prince Albert Sound). He described meeting many men whose beards and hair were blonde and "who looked like typical Scandinavians". In his book My Life with the Eskimos, Stefánsson proposed several explanations for these physical features:

   * Early mixture with Norse colonists from Greenland;
   * Mixture with European whalers;
   * Ancient migration of European-like people from across the Bering Strait;

He rejected the second explanation because "if the mixing of races is so recent, it would appear that it should be most conspicuous farther east where the whalers had their headquarters, fading away as one goes westward. The opposite is the case".

In 2003, two Icelandic scientists, the geneticist and anthropologists Agnar Helgason and Gisli Palsson announced the results of their research comparing DNA from 100 Cambridge Bay Inuit with DNA from Icelanders, and concluded that there was no match.

In 2008, in an article in Current Anthropology, Palsson concludes that recent work "refutes Stefansson’s speculations on the Copper Inuit".

http://en.wikipedia....i/Blond_Eskimos


Does this mean Stefansson was lying, or that he was half-blind? Or that these 'blond Inuits' had moved out of the area or had simply died out?

[Bavarian Raven]

Quote

DNA tests debunk blond Inuit legend
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...lond031028.html

one problem with this, the inuit found in that area now are most likely not the inuit that were to be found in that region a century ago. the canadian government did forced relocations of the native populations in the north - those that managed to survive the smallpox, etc. I wonder if they took this into account or not (or took bones from the local graves from that period and beyond that to test)...

that being said, if the norse did not interbreed/produce some offspring with some of the natives at the time, I would truly be shocked.

Edited by Bavarian Raven, 17 January 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Abramelin, on 17 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

http://www.death-rec...-Botts/Kentucky

http://search.ancest...&gss=seo&ghc=20

.

Good research, my somewhat flip response stands corrected. But I do have grave doubts about a story that sounds so much like every Noah's Ark 'find' I've ever heard of, especially when the purported object can't be found later.

[Everdred]

Abramelin, on 17 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

DNA tests debunk blond Inuit legend
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...lond031028.html


In 1910 Vilhjalmur Stefansson visited the Copper Inuit inhabiting southwestern Victoria Island (Prince Albert Sound). He described meeting many men whose beards and hair were blonde and "who looked like typical Scandinavians". In his book My Life with the Eskimos, Stefánsson proposed several explanations for these physical features:

   * Early mixture with Norse colonists from Greenland;
   * Mixture with European whalers;
   * Ancient migration of European-like people from across the Bering Strait;

He rejected the second explanation because "if the mixing of races is so recent, it would appear that it should be most conspicuous farther east where the whalers had their headquarters, fading away as one goes westward. The opposite is the case".

In 2003, two Icelandic scientists, the geneticist and anthropologists Agnar Helgason and Gisli Palsson announced the results of their research comparing DNA from 100 Cambridge Bay Inuit with DNA from Icelanders, and concluded that there was no match.

In 2008, in an article in Current Anthropology, Palsson concludes that recent work "refutes Stefansson’s speculations on the Copper Inuit".

http://en.wikipedia....i/Blond_Eskimos


Does this mean Stefansson was lying, or that he was half-blind? Or that these 'blond Inuits' had moved out of the area or had simply died out?

There seems to be little reason to doubt Stefansson.  The wiki page you linked included details of earlier expeditions that reported seeing the same traits.  It also linked to another article that gave detailed eye-witness corroboration.  The idea that all these people are either stupid or lying is silly.

So what of this genetic evidence?  The studies strike me as imperfect for a few different reasons.  First of all, in collecting DNA samples they only concentrated on getting samples from people roughly in the geographic area in which the Copper Inuit are recorded.  Their defined area seemed to be a significant portion of the region of Kitikmeot, whereas the historical accounts place the Copper Inuits as concentrated chiefly in the area around Coronation Gulf.  Moreover, they did not indicate that they sought individuals who claimed Copper Inuit ancestry, nor did they seek out any potential blond individuals.  So it is not clear that their DNA samples are actually representative of the population described by Stefansson and others.

Another significant issue is that the study uses only mtDNA evidence.  The lack of evidence for Norse admixture in this case can be attributable to a couple shortcomings of this method.  It could simply be that, given our historical knowledge of Norse expeditions, the interbreeding would likely be of Norse males with Inuit females--thus we would not expect to see any Norse mtDNA.  Also, the recent history of the Copper Inuits indicates that their originally small population became even smaller thanks to the introduction of new diseases and economic difficulties, plus there may have been migrations out of the region leading to the loss of their Copper Inuit identity by these individuals.  That is, the current population is quite small (Wikipedia gives a figure of 800 people, citing a book published in 1987), meaning any Norse mtDNA that had entered the population could easily have been bred out through simple genetic drift.

[Oniomancer]

PersonFromPorlock, on 16 January 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Starting with the sheer impossibility of there actually being anyone named "Myrtle Botts" outside of a P.G. Wodehouse story....

And finishing with the fact that if this the same place where Agua Caliente county park is currently located, it's about 372 meters above sea level, not counting the canyons.

Edited by Oniomancer, 18 January 2013 - 05:32 AM.

[Abramelin]

Everdred, on 18 January 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

There seems to be little reason to doubt Stefansson.  The wiki page you linked included details of earlier expeditions that reported seeing the same traits.  It also linked to another article that gave detailed eye-witness corroboration.  The idea that all these people are either stupid or lying is silly.

So what of this genetic evidence?  The studies strike me as imperfect for a few different reasons.  First of all, in collecting DNA samples they only concentrated on getting samples from people roughly in the geographic area in which the Copper Inuit are recorded.  Their defined area seemed to be a significant portion of the region of Kitikmeot, whereas the historical accounts place the Copper Inuits as concentrated chiefly in the area around Coronation Gulf.  Moreover, they did not indicate that they sought individuals who claimed Copper Inuit ancestry, nor did they seek out any potential blond individuals.  So it is not clear that their DNA samples are actually representative of the population described by Stefansson and others.

Another significant issue is that the study uses only mtDNA evidence.  The lack of evidence for Norse admixture in this case can be attributable to a couple shortcomings of this method.  It could simply be that, given our historical knowledge of Norse expeditions, the interbreeding would likely be of Norse males with Inuit females--thus we would not expect to see any Norse mtDNA.  Also, the recent history of the Copper Inuits indicates that their originally small population became even smaller thanks to the introduction of new diseases and economic difficulties, plus there may have been migrations out of the region leading to the loss of their Copper Inuit identity by these individuals.  That is, the current population is quite small (Wikipedia gives a figure of 800 people, citing a book published in 1987), meaning any Norse mtDNA that had entered the population could easily have been bred out through simple genetic drift.

My remark about Stefansson maybe being blind or a liar was of course meant sarcastically, and the link you posted explains he wasn't alone in his observations.

-

I also had some problems with the DNA research, and you explained it better than I could have done.

[Abramelin]

PersonFromPorlock, on 18 January 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

Good research, my somewhat flip response stands corrected. But I do have grave doubts about a story that sounds so much like every Noah's Ark 'find' I've ever heard of, especially when the purported object can't be found later.

All I can say is that it is suggested the remnants of the ship were finally buried in a landslide.

And having read tons about what the Vikings accomplished, I don't think it is too farfetched to assume they did indeed once travel along the Northwest Passage when it was possible. Only finds in Alaska or even California can prove this, of course.

[Abramelin]

Oniomancer, on 18 January 2013 - 05:31 AM, said:

And finishing with the fact that if this the same place where Agua Caliente county park is currently located, it's about 372 meters above sea level, not counting the canyons.

From my post about the story:

Others say that the fair-haired foreigners sailed farther up the Gulf and were never seen again. If, as some revisionist geographers insist, the Imperial Valley was once an extension of the Gulf of California, then the ship could have run aground on what are now the Tierra Blanca Mountains. So it may lie today buried under tons of earthquake-loosened rock and soil in the canyon above Agua Caliente Springs. . (For another account of a legendary desert ship, see IMPERIAL COUNTY: Salton Sea.).

I have no idea how large and deep that Salton Sea may have been a thousand years ago.

[lightly]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Salton_Sea


History

Geologists estimate that for 3 million years, at least through all the years of the Pleistocene glacial age, the Colorado River worked to build its delta in the southern region of the Imperial Valley. Eventually, the delta had reached the western shore of the Gulf of California (the Sea of Cortez/Cortés), creating a massive dam that excluded the Salton Sea from the northern reaches of the Gulf. Were it not for this dam, the entire Salton Sink along with the Imperial Valley, including most of the area occupied by Anza-Borrego Desert State Park, would all be submerged, as the Gulf would extend as far north as Indio.^[2]
As a result, the Salton Sink or Salton Basin has long been alternately a fresh water lake and a dry desert basin, depending on random river flows and the balance between inflow and evaporative loss. A lake would exist only when it was replenished by the river and rainfall, a cycle that repeated itself countless times over hundreds of thousands of years – most recently when the lake was recreated in 1905.^[3]

    In 1900, the California Development Company began construction of irrigation canals to divert water from the Colorado River into the Salton Sink, a dry lake bed. After construction of these irrigation canals, the Salton Sink became fertile for a time, allowing farmers to plant crops.
Within two years, the Imperial Canal became filled with silt from the Colorado River. Engineers tried to alleviate the blockages to no avail. In 1905, heavy rainfall and snowmelt caused the Colorado River to swell, overrunning a set of headgates for the Alamo Canal. The resulting flood poured down the canal and breached an Imperial Valley dike, eroding two watercourses, the New River in the west, and the Alamo River in the east, each about 60 miles (97 km) long.^[6]Over a period of approximately two years these two newly created rivers sporadically carried the entire volume of the Colorado River into the Salton Sink.^[7]

[Oniomancer]

You guys both kinda missed the most crucial part:

The lake occupies the lowest elevations of the Salton Sink in the Colorado Desert of Imperial and Riverside counties in Southern California. Like Death Valley, it is below sea level. Currently, its surface is 226 ft (69 m) below sea level

The flat part of Agua Caliene Springs again about 372 meters above sea level at the nearby airstrip.

  http://www.totalescape.com/active/leisure/hotspr/aguacaliente.html

Click on the google earth link. Those mountains to the left are the canyons they would've gone up into.

You can the outline of most of the former sea too if you zoom out. Even if it was twice as wide though, standing water doesn't stand uphill.
Granted, there's a dry river bed running up the valley and several side streams, possible just alluvial,  going into a couple of the canyons, but not very big ones and not anything that would been deep enough for a boat to end up well over a hiker's head on it's own, which would've necessitated somebody the thing into the canyon and up the mountainside.

[Abramelin]

Oniomancer, on 18 January 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

You guys both kinda missed the most crucial part:

The lake occupies the lowest elevations of the Salton Sink in the Colorado Desert of Imperial and Riverside counties in Southern California. Like Death Valley, it is below sea level. Currently, its surface is 226 ft (69 m) below sea level

The flat part of Agua Caliene Springs again about 372 meters above sea level at the nearby airstrip.

  http://www.totalescape.com/active/leisure/hotspr/aguacaliente.html

Click on the google earth link. Those mountains to the left are the canyons they would've gone up into.

You can the outline of most of the former sea too if you zoom out. Even if it was twice as wide though, standing water doesn't stand uphill.
Granted, there's a dry river bed running up the valley and several side streams, possible just alluvial,  going into a couple of the canyons, but not very big ones and not anything that would been deep enough for a boat to end up well over a hiker's head on it's own, which would've necessitated somebody the thing into the canyon and up the mountainside.

I don't know the area, but it is known the Vikings often dragged their boats over land for many miles on their way to the sea or to another river.

[lightly]

.. i'm starting to wonder if the location in the story got confused with one of the many Aqua Caliente  (hot springs)  in the area. We camped by one 'aqua caliente' that wasn't a county park.   I'm not sure if   that one  was below sea level  but  , much of the area is.   ..  I read that in 177?   it poured rain for three days straight and boats at the Salton Sea  ended up elsewhere.
.. anyway,  I'd  suspect a spanish boat to be relocated there before a viking one?







                     *

Edited by lightly, 18 January 2013 - 06:35 PM.