Is rape under all circumstances always rape

[Heru]

I was reading an article about rape in the military http://news.yahoo.co...-220109527.html

And it got me thinking on how when someone cries rape, the women is always viewed as an innocent victim and the male or males are evil sex crazed fiends.

Now im not saying that if someone is raped it is there fault. I know when politicians speak on rape their words take on new meaning. So again I do not condone nor do I view rape as a victimless crime.

But is it right for two people who are intoxicated to have sex then afterwards one of the participants can cry rape no matter the circumstance?

I've had sex with a woman who I wouldn't have had sex with sober and no i wasnt some hulk like sex crazed animal but I just went with the flow even though i didnt want to. Nor did i show any interest while i was drinking. I was drunk pretty bad and she walked up and initiated it, I never showed any interest toward her earlier either. I also regretted it and yes i got 5h!7 from my friends for having had sex with her. But I didnt accuse her of rape nor did I want to see her put in jail. I just kicked myself and made sure I never got that drunk again around people, not just for something like that to not happen again but why would i want to lose control of myself around others.

In the article above, the example they had was a woman who was drinking with 3 football players. The next day she woke up with bruises and no crime no foul so far. Later she was told by friends and social media she was raped. But she has no memory of that night and didnt file charges till much later.

Not saying she deserved it but of course commenters have labeled the three guilty and her an innocent who was victimized.

But is it really that clear cut, black and white.

There was no evidence of her level of toxicity nor any rape kit done, also the witness says she has no memory of what happened. The only ones who are 100% sure it was rape was her friends and social media, who weren't even present. Also, is it so inconceivable that maybe while she was drunk she consented to having sex but latter from being the topic of conversation on the internet and from friends she said it was rape to save face? Just as it is equally as likely she was raped.

Again not saying she deserved it or anything like that. But If a woman can be so intoxicated that her willingness at the time is irrelevant due to her state of mind, why isnt the same logic held for the man who is also intoxicated. After all if your one of the few who are sleep walkers/sex-ers your not at fault if you have sex with an underage girl (I think its bs, seeing as the guy knew he had that problem).

Anyways my question to you is, do you think our society is biased and sexist when it comes to rape crimes?

[Rlyeh]

Anyways my question to you is, do you think our society is biased and sexist when it comes to rape crimes?

Although nothing to do with your article, just the topic of men being raped is often seen as a joke.

[Ashotep]

They said she was blacked out, you don't remember things when you are blacked out and you for sure aren't going to give consent. If a woman is blacked out and you have sex with her then yes it is rape. Big difference in this and getting drunk coming on to someone then jumping in bed. Best thing to do if someone is so drunk they can't walk is keep it in your pants.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Hilander

[Taun]

Years ago there was a soldier in a unit that was stationed near mine... One of the soldiers went out drinking and "picked up" a female soldier... They had sex and the next morning the NCO walked into the room for a surprise inspection to find the two in bed and asleep... The female soldier woke up and immediately screamed rape...

The male soldier was sentenced to reduction in rank to the lowest pay grade, dishonorable discharge and 15 years in Federal Prison... A short while later the female soldier was laughing about it and saying that she only did it to avoid getting in trouble...

I firmly believe that not all rapes are rapes... Sometimes the man is left in a position where he has to prove that he didn't... and it is extremely difficult to prove a negative...

That being said, there is very little lower than a true rapist, and IMO they are not punished firmly enough...

[Heru]

They said she was blacked out, you don't remember things when you are blacked out and you for sure aren't going to give consent. If a woman is blacked out and you have sex with her then yes it is rape. Big difference in this and getting drunk coming on to someone then jumping in bed. Best thing to do if someone is so drunk they can't walk is keep it in your pants.

How would those guys know if she wouldn't remember the next day. Its not like theres scientific evidence that she blacked out even, she just said she doesn't remember. I've been drunk a few times and I dont remember the whole night, doesn't mean i wasn't acting coherent.

Thats one of the things I was pointing out; Ive only seen a few times where someone will put some of the blame on the woman but they are usualy set aflame by the majority on the internet or given multiple thumbs down.

Again not saying every rape case there are two to blame. But It just seems when a female says rape a witch hunt occurs.

Like with your response... she blacked out. Well did she get so drunk she couldnt remember before the act of sex? During? or After?

If your accused of rape other than formal legal procedures your guilty in the eyes of the public. Maybe thats just something only guys know about.

[_Only]

They said she was blacked out, you don't remember things when you are blacked out and you for sure aren't going to give consent. If a woman is blacked out and you have sex with her then yes it is rape. Big difference in this and getting drunk coming on to someone then jumping in bed. Best thing to do if someone is so drunk they can't walk is keep it in your pants.

'Blacked out' means you don't remember any of the events happening. It doesn't mean you are unconscious, just that you don't remember the actions you took. 'Black out drunk' people are fully aware (well, in a severely drunk state).

Long story short, 'blackout' just means alcohol induced amnesia; not passed out.

This is a bad spot to be in to sue someone.. if she wasn't a girl, and predispositions for rape didn't exist, like the OP is getting at. She could have very well willingly had sex with those dudes, and just plain didn't remember because she remembers absolutely nothing. So she just assumes she didn't want to have sex? So it's left to the jury; but I think I already know how they would decide.

But if it was up to me, if you don't remember what happened, you are in no place to have people arrested. That's just wrong.

[Sakari]

I was reading an article about rape in the military http://news.yahoo.co...-220109527.html

And it got me thinking on how when someone cries rape, the women is always viewed as an innocent victim and the male or males are evil sex crazed fiends.

Now im not saying that if someone is raped it is there fault. I know when politicians speak on rape their words take on new meaning. So again I do not condone nor do I view rape as a victimless crime.

But is it right for two people who are intoxicated to have sex then afterwards one of the participants can cry rape no matter the circumstance?

I've had sex with a woman who I wouldn't have had sex with sober and no i wasnt some hulk like sex crazed animal but I just went with the flow even though i didnt want to. Nor did i show any interest while i was drinking. I was drunk pretty bad and she walked up and initiated it, I never showed any interest toward her earlier either. I also regretted it and yes i got 5h!7 from my friends for having had sex with her. But I didnt accuse her of rape nor did I want to see her put in jail. I just kicked myself and made sure I never got that drunk again around people, not just for something like that to not happen again but why would i want to lose control of myself around others.

In the article above, the example they had was a woman who was drinking with 3 football players. The next day she woke up with bruises and no crime no foul so far. Later she was told by friends and social media she was raped. But she has no memory of that night and didnt file charges till much later.

Not saying she deserved it but of course commenters have labeled the three guilty and her an innocent who was victimized.

But is it really that clear cut, black and white.

There was no evidence of her level of toxicity nor any rape kit done, also the witness says she has no memory of what happened. The only ones who are 100% sure it was rape was her friends and social media, who weren't even present. Also, is it so inconceivable that maybe while she was drunk she consented to having sex but latter from being the topic of conversation on the internet and from friends she said it was rape to save face? Just as it is equally as likely she was raped.

Again not saying she deserved it or anything like that. But If a woman can be so intoxicated that her willingness at the time is irrelevant due to her state of mind, why isnt the same logic held for the man who is also intoxicated. After all if your one of the few who are sleep walkers/sex-ers your not at fault if you have sex with an underage girl (I think its bs, seeing as the guy knew he had that problem).

Anyways my question to you is, do you think our society is biased and sexist when it comes to rape crimes?

You were not raped because you just stated you went with it.

If someone is drunk/impaired to the point they can not make a conscious decision, and someone takes advantage of that man, or woman, that is rape in my book.

How many guys get their girls drunk so they can " get laid " ?

Isn't that the same as drugging someone?

[Dark_Grey]

Years ago there was a soldier in a unit that was stationed near mine... One of the soldiers went out drinking and "picked up" a female soldier... They had sex and the next morning the NCO walked into the room for a surprise inspection to find the two in bed and asleep... The female soldier woke up and immediately screamed rape...

The male soldier was sentenced to reduction in rank to the lowest pay grade, dishonorable discharge and 15 years in Federal Prison... A short while later the female soldier was laughing about it and saying that she only did it to avoid getting in trouble...

I firmly believe that not all rapes are rapes... Sometimes the man is left in a position where he has to prove that he didn't... and it is extremely difficult to prove a negative...

That being said, there is very little lower than a true rapist, and IMO they are not punished firmly enough...

That's...honestly a sad story, man. I've heard of similar situations occurring. I think women know the ball is always in their court when it comes to rape (that is an odd statement given the context, but I'm sure you know what I mean). Unfortunately, some do use that to their advantage which on some levels can be just as destructive as rape itself; the difference is that both parties were originally consenting.

Edit to add --

Women can be just as sexually voracious as men...speaking from personal experience, I've been around relatively modest women who became fiends when their blood/alcohol level hit a peak. I've seen them throw themselves at guys, grabbing belt buckles, necking guys who weren't even paying attention..

And the next morning, they'll start a conversation about how drunk they got and looking for stories about anything they might have done since they were "blacked out". Moral of the story is that women can absolutely instigate sex while they are wasted. How they want to deal with that reality the morning after is determined by the kind of character they possess.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Dark_Grey

[Sakari]

But if it was up to me, if you don't remember what happened, you are in no place to have people arrested. That's just wrong.

So, if you go to a party, black out, wake up the next morning and your ass hurts bad, you have used condoms all over you, and bodliy fluids around your mouth, you are not going to cry rape?

That is just wrong. Just because someone blacks out, does not give anyone the right to have sex with them. " they will not remember "....

[+ouija ouija]

You need a definition of 'rape' here. From the Concise Oxford Dictionary: 'the act of forcing a woman/man to have sexual intercourse against her/his will. Forcible sodomy.' This makes things relatively simple, doesn't it?

If it's true that women are more likely to be believed than men in a situation where 'rape' is cried, it's because the pendulum has just swung in the opposite direction after centuries of not just the man being believed, but even worse, in a man's world it wasn't even considered to be a big deal ....... 'it's only sex, after all' ...... 'she wanted/enjoyed it anyway'!

[Heru]

Years ago there was a soldier in a unit that was stationed near mine... One of the soldiers went out drinking and "picked up" a female soldier... They had sex and the next morning the NCO walked into the room for a surprise inspection to find the two in bed and asleep... The female soldier woke up and immediately screamed rape...

The male soldier was sentenced to reduction in rank to the lowest pay grade, dishonorable discharge and 15 years in Federal Prison... A short while later the female soldier was laughing about it and saying that she only did it to avoid getting in trouble...

I firmly believe that not all rapes are rapes... Sometimes the man is left in a position where he has to prove that he didn't... and it is extremely difficult to prove a negative...

That being said, there is very little lower than a true rapist, and IMO they are not punished firmly enough...

I agree I despise the act of rape, I view it as torture and a defilement religiously.

I have a story like that, wasnt going to post it cause the ladies here would hate on me but.

When I was younger me and my friend knew this girl. Now she was a chicken head to the very core of the word. She was the girl you knew to get any kind of drugs and i dont mean drugs recreational wise but to sell and distribute in large amounts. She was also known to have performed in a few trains.

Anyways she needed a place to crash so she asked my friend if she could stay there. Well we were sitting on the couch and she started makeing out with my friend. Now me and her flirted quite a bit but never did anything.

Long story short I joined in. Now she didnt say no or push me away. Well I noticed the time and I reminded my friend we needed to meet up with these girls (He was in love with one of em, a real classy lady) so we dip, and she didnt seem to happy about that. Now there was no sex just her shirt was off and pants unbuttoned, still had bra on.

Well next day one of her many male friends starts talkin 5h!7 saying we raped her. We were like wtf we didnt even have sex. We smoothed it out with him but she told other guys that we raped her. Well they didnt care cause they just saw her as a h and the letter o so nothing came about from her accusing us.

The moral of the story is that a girl can yell rape and your ****d.

[+ouija ouija]

Years ago there was a soldier in a unit that was stationed near mine... One of the soldiers went out drinking and "picked up" a female soldier... They had sex and the next morning the NCO walked into the room for a surprise inspection to find the two in bed and asleep... The female soldier woke up and immediately screamed rape...

The male soldier was sentenced to reduction in rank to the lowest pay grade, dishonorable discharge and 15 years in Federal Prison... A short while later the female soldier was laughing about it and saying that she only did it to avoid getting in trouble...

I firmly believe that not all rapes are rapes... Sometimes the man is left in a position where he has to prove that he didn't... and it is extremely difficult to prove a negative...

That being said, there is very little lower than a true rapist, and IMO they are not punished firmly enough...

The person at fault here is the NCO, surely? You have to wonder why he/she accepted the woman's accusation.

If he was in prison and dishonourably discharged, surely he was not on any pay grade? 15yrs? Seriously?

[pallidin]

This is a touchy subject... or not.

I've had women come-on to me in a very serious way, only to say "NO", after they have worked me all up.

There is something seriously wrong with that, on their end, as if they are getting some type of psycho-kick.

Oh, and men can do the same thing.

Edited June 20, 2013 by pallidin

[Heru]

So, if you go to a party, black out, wake up the next morning and your ass hurts bad, you have used condoms all over you, and bodliy fluids around your mouth, you are not going to cry rape?

That is just wrong. Just because someone blacks out, does not give anyone the right to have sex with them. " they will not remember "....

How are you suppose to know if the person wont remember the next day. Its not like, oh they cant walk a straight line or there slurring there words they wont remember. Because ive seen people act like they normally do when drunk and not remember the next day. We usually mess with em and make up 5h!7 they did.

If that happened to me as a man I would be like WTF did i do last nite ( lol just being stupid there). I wouldn't say rape and go on a witch hunt. I would keep it quite but if what i did was all over the internet, I dont know. I would like to think I would deal with the shame but not being in that circumstance I don't know if i wouldn't push the rape angle to save face.

[Redefining Success]

I don't know if i wouldn't push the rape angle to save face.

Seriously? You would consider lying and ruining some one elses life just to save face?

Loads of crap happens everyday, something new will come along and people will move on.

Ive done bad stuff (certainly not rape, but petty crimes) and I manned up and dealt with the consequences.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Redefining Success

[Sakari]

How are you suppose to know if the person wont remember the next day. Its not like, oh they cant walk a straight line or there slurring there words they wont remember. Because ive seen people act like they normally do when drunk and not remember the next day. We usually mess with em and make up 5h!7 they did.

If that happened to me as a man I would be like WTF did i do last nite ( lol just being stupid there). I wouldn't say rape and go on a witch hunt. I would keep it quite but if what i did was all over the internet, I dont know. I would like to think I would deal with the shame but not being in that circumstance I don't know if i wouldn't push the rape angle to save face.

I think you know what I mean when someone is blacked out drunk.....

To me having morals, there is a obvious point we all know when someone is so drunk they can be taken advantage of, or make poor decisions. That is when we should not have sex with them.

There is also that point where they are even passed that, and that is rape.

I had the same thing happen as you, although I would have had sex with this girl sober. She was back then known as a " **** ", but hey aren't we all?

Still, I was to the point I was actually puking inbetween. I am more p***ed I did not get to enjoy it then anything.

[rashore]

I think our society is very sexist when it comes to sex crimes. I notice it most in teacher/student cases- he's a dirty old man who molested an innocent girl, but she's a sexy cougar and the boy was lucky. I think it's terrible that people don't realize men can be raped too. Yes, it is probably easier to rape a woman, but it does indeed happen to men- women aren't the only ones that say no.

I don't think rape is rape under all circumstances, and alcohol or other drug impairment is something that can really blur the line. How drunk is too drunk to make legally coherent decisions?

I knew a guy that would ply a gal that would normally say no to him with alcohol till they were too incoherent to object, and took advantage.

Another guy that was drunk and pinned down and raped by his ex-girlfriend. Oddly enough, he felt bad that she found the need to do this, and stayed her friend after to help her through her troubled mind over him.

Another guy that had very kinky sex while they were impaired, and since she was in the middle of a divorce and cheating on her boyfriend, cried rape the next day- and he's in jail now, judge decided to make an example of him and gave him 45 years. Extra oomph- he saved me from being drunk raped twice when I was younger.

A few women who were too drunk to actively say no, and are still struggling with "well I would never have slept with him otherwise, but maybe it is my fault since I was drinking"....

One woman that freely admitted she just kept getting her husband drunk and having sex with him till he knocked her up and felt obliged to marry her.

I've had personal experience with drunk rape because of my first husband, and almost 15 years later, it's still too strange and dark to detail about.

Rape is an utterly heinous crime. I think it's only been somewhat recently in our history that rape in it's various forms has been scrutinized and the question of what construes rape has been raised.

[EllJay]

"Is rape under all circumstances always rape"

In the case of Julian Assange it was not a case of rape. The laws that constitutes what rape is in Sweden has been bent out of shape. It´s almost that whistling after a girl on the street constitutes rape nowadays.

[s33ker]

I agree women are slutty when drunk, put themselves in a vulnerable situation and do sometimes initiate sex and stop. Your mother, sister and daughter might too, so who should be responsible for conduct most foul? The inebriated female whose been plied with alcohol all evening, or the creep who sits and waits for his chance with the chickenhead? Different rules for different situations aren't need, just some common decency and a little bit of intelligence is need to evaluate any situation when dealing with a drunken women. Specifically if you don't her,

even more so if you do.

[rashore]

I agree women are slutty when drunk, put themselves in a vulnerable situation and do sometimes initiate sex and stop. Your mother, sister and daughter might too, so who should be responsible for conduct most foul? The inebriated female whose been plied with alcohol all evening, or the creep who sits and waits for his chance with the chickenhead? Different rules for different situations aren't need, just some common decency and a little bit of intelligence is need to evaluate any situation when dealing with a drunken women. Specifically if you don't her,

even more so if you do.

Snort, men are slutty when drunk too. It's a human condition, not one particular to one gender or the other.

[+ouija ouija]

You need a definition of 'rape' here. From the Concise Oxford Dictionary: ''the act of forcing a woman/man to ave sexual intercourse against her/his will. Forcible sodomy. This makes things relatively simple, doesn't it?

If it's true that women are more likely to be believed than men in a situation where 'rape' is cried, it's because the pendulum has just swung in the opposite direction after centuries of not just the man being believed, but even worse, in a man's world it wasn't even considered to be a big deal ....... 'it's only sex, after all' ...... 'she wanted/enjoyed it anyway'!

I think our society is very sexist when it comes to sex crimes. I notice it most in teacher/student cases- he's a dirty old man who molested an innocent girl, but she's a sexy cougar and the boy was lucky. I think it's terrible that people don't realize men can be raped too. Yes, it is probably easier to rape a woman, but it does indeed happen to men- women aren't the only ones that say no.

I don't think rape is rape under all circumstances, and alcohol or other drug impairment is something that can really blur the line. How drunk is too drunk to make legally coherent decisions?

I knew a guy that would ply a gal that would normally say no to him with alcohol till they were too incoherent to object, and took advantage.

Another guy that was drunk and pinned down and raped by his ex-girlfriend. Oddly enough, he felt bad that she found the need to do this, and stayed her friend after to help her through her troubled mind over him.

Another guy that had very kinky sex while they were impaired, and since she was in the middle of a divorce and cheating on her boyfriend, cried rape the next day- and he's in jail now, judge decided to make an example of him and gave him 45 years. Extra oomph- he saved me from being drunk raped twice when I was younger.

A few women who were too drunk to actively say no, and are still struggling with "well I would never have slept with him otherwise, but maybe it is my fault since I was drinking"....

One woman that freely admitted she just kept getting her husband drunk and having sex with him till he knocked her up and felt obliged to marry her.

I've had personal experience with drunk rape because of my first husband, and almost 15 years later, it's still too strange and dark to detail about.

Rape is an utterly heinous crime. I think it's only been somewhat recently in our history that rape in it's various forms has been scrutinized and the question of what construes rape has been raised.

There is no question of what construes rape; it's really very simple: in bold at top of this post

45 years ? Again, I find this hard to believe. The maximum in the UK seems to be 19yrs.

Edited June 20, 2013 by ouija ouija

[Heru]

Seriously? You would consider lying and ruining some one elses life just to save face?

Loads of crap happens everyday, something new will come along and people will move on.

Ive done bad stuff (certainly not rape, but petty crimes) and I manned up and dealt with the consequences.

Im a satanist, lying and ruining lives is an average day thing.

While I could say I would not do that, I dont know if i would or wouldnt, cause ive never been in that situation. Its easy to say "If that was me I would do this or I wouldnt do that" but making a decision as a third-party is different than making a decision when it happens to you.

[Mr.United_Nations]

The last Rape thread got closed, as this one I think,

[rashore]

There is no question of what construes rape; it's really very simple: in bold at top of this post

45 years ? Again, I find this hard to believe. The maximum in the UK seems to be 19yrs.

Hard to believe or not, it's true. I think it was because of the kind of kink involved and she may be related to the judge that passed sentence. In the U.S., sentences like rape can really vary from place to place, or what the judge feels like handing out. Other rape cases in the same area have had a couple years sentence too. Same goes for other crimes- like the same kind of robbery can land years of time, or just months. It's one of the things that seems to be a problem with our justice system, a crazy array of sentencing.

[Heru]

I agree women are slutty when drunk, put themselves in a vulnerable situation and do sometimes initiate sex and stop. Your mother, sister and daughter might too, so who should be responsible for conduct most foul? The inebriated female whose been plied with alcohol all evening, or the creep who sits and waits for his chance with the chickenhead? Different rules for different situations aren't need, just some common decency and a little bit of intelligence is need to evaluate any situation when dealing with a drunken women. Specifically if you don't her,

even more so if you do.

Why do you vilify the male? A woman's body is precious and beautiful, she should respect herself....right? If a woman sleeps around allot she probably has low self esteem and is trying to find self worth right? A female should be cautious around males because all they want is your body... right? Is the males body perceived the same in society? Are males raised in the same manner?

If I said last night someone was raped, 100% forced rape. A female was invited to a males house and they proceeded to drink. Did you place the female as the victim or the male?

Edited June 20, 2013 by Heru