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Palestine not for Sale or Trade


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#1    and then

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:07 PM

http://www.ynetnews....4375705,00.html

Obama's boy Kerry is probably a little frustrated with the reality that's been faced by so many of his predecessors.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#2    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:37 PM

View Postand then, on 03 May 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

http://www.ynetnews....4375705,00.html

Obama's boy Kerry is probably a little frustrated with the reality that's been faced by so many of his predecessors.

The problem is that the militant forces within the palestinians and many of their leaders NEED ongoing conflict to legitimise their leadership, and provide a rationale for their existence. Peace would remove their power base among many moderate arabs; and indeed strengthen moderate  arab opinion and power, thus they desire ongoing conflict, from self interest.

No logical rational or intelligent person could believe that the arabs could eliminate Israel (without acces to nuclear weapons) and as long as America supports the jewish sate. And any logical, sane, intelligent and rational, person should be aware that a single nuclear attack on israel would result in the annihilation of many arab cities, infrastructure, and innocent civilians. Israel has a minimum of about 100 nuclear warheads, and quite  likely as many as 400.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#3    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:05 AM

Quote

No logical rational or intelligent person could believe that the arabs could eliminate Israel (without acces to nuclear weapons) and as long as America supports the jewish sate. And any logical, sane, intelligent and rational, person should be aware that a single nuclear attack on israel would result in the annihilation of many arab cities, infrastructure, and innocent civilians. Israel has a minimum of about 100 nuclear warheads, and quite  likely as many as 400.

This, you don't p*** off a nuclear power that is will do anything to survive.


#4    and then

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:24 AM

Both points quite valid but the reality is that many people still push for such actions to eliminate the err... Jewish/Zionist problem.  It amazes me the gullibility or hatred that so many display.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#5    Yamato

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:57 AM

View Postand then, on 04 May 2013 - 12:24 AM, said:

Both points quite valid but the reality is that many people still push for such actions to eliminate the err... Jewish/Zionist problem.  It amazes me the gullibility or hatred that so many display.
It's not Jewish AND Zionist, it's Jewish OR Zionist. If it's both, then you have to admit that the Jewish identity has been replaced by Zionism.   Or else Zionism emulates Judaism so perfectly that the two words Zionism and Jewish are interchangeable.

Look at Jews and Arabs living in unprecedented periods of peace for hundreds of years while Europe bled and burned.  This is all about politics man. That's all it is.  Money and power, land and resources.  It's ghoulish.  We should keep our noses and our money out of it.

Edited by Yamato, 04 May 2013 - 07:00 AM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#6    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:18 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 04 May 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

This, you don't p*** off a nuclear power that is will do anything to survive.
And the jewish state and people are quite overt and up front about this. After ww2 and their experiences in the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe, they swore they would never again be left so defenceless as a nation, or as a people.  While the israelis never even talk about a nuclear first strike, they are absolutely unequivocal about what will happen, if they are attacked by  a single  nuclear weapon.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#7    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostYamato, on 04 May 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

It's not Jewish AND Zionist, it's Jewish OR Zionist. If it's both, then you have to admit that the Jewish identity has been replaced by Zionism.   Or else Zionism emulates Judaism so perfectly that the two words Zionism and Jewish are interchangeable.

Look at Jews and Arabs living in unprecedented periods of peace for hundreds of years while Europe bled and burned.  This is all about politics man. That's all it is.  Money and power, land and resources.  It's ghoulish.  We should keep our noses and our money out of it.

Judaism exists independent of israel, and many jews live all around the world who are not Israelis and do not see them selves as Israelis; but Israel is the jewish homeland and nation state, for both those who live there, and many who do not.

Zionism has become a tainted word but it has a proud heritage. The jews, like all of us, have a right to a physical nation- state where their religion, culture and life, can be represented. So do arab people, including the palestinians. There is room for both in the middle east, but too many people have vested interests in maintaining a conflict scenario..


And of course it is not just the arab israeli conflict. The greatest violence in the  modern middle east has been between and within arab states  based on religious and cultural divisions. Think back to the seemingly endless conflict in lebanon, and the long and tragic war between iran and iraq, with chemical weapons and waves of human assaults on entrenched positons not seen since the first world war.

100000 to 150000 died in the lebanese civil war. Approx 1,000,000 iranians and up to 500,000 iraqis died in the war between their countries.The death toll in the present syrian civil war is at least 60000 and rising rapidly.  Not only that but the conflict is spilling over on religious  divisions between sunnis and shia, into lebanon which is only just recovering from its own civil war.

The libyans got off lucky in their civil war, with military casualities of only about 10000, although civilian casualties are unknown. In addition the refugee movement from these wars was many millions of people

Now the figures for TOTAL  deaths in all arab israeli conflict since the 1940s is interesting. About 25 000 israelis, and a bit less than 100000 arabs/palestinians. This includes riots,  wars, and intifadas. Puts the true geopolitics of the area in a very different perspective, doesn't it?

Edited by Mr Walker, 04 May 2013 - 07:55 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#8    and then

and then

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 04 May 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

And the jewish state and people are quite overt and up front about this. After ww2 and their experiences in the ghettos and concentration camps of Europe, they swore they would never again be left so defenceless as a nation, or as a people.  While the israelis never even talk about a nuclear first strike, they are absolutely unequivocal about what will happen, if they are attacked by  a single  nuclear weapon.
As I'm sure any follower of this forum is aware, I am routinely called out as being variously deluded, biased, a freak or racist because of my approval of the state of Israel and of Zionism in general.  A major component of my support for Israel hinges on the FACT that what you say is true.  These people mean it when they say 'never again' yet the world seems hell bent on calling them on this.  The situation is supernatural imo.  It makes no sense to expect a people to commit national and personal suicide due to a pr effort.  Yet many have exactly that expectation.  It boggles the mind.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#9    Yamato

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:40 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 04 May 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Judaism exists independent of israel, and many jews live all around the world who are not Israelis and do not see them selves as Israelis; but Israel is the jewish homeland and nation state, for both those who live there, and many who do not.

Zionism has become a tainted word but it has a proud heritage. The jews, like all of us, have a right to a physical nation- state where their religion, culture and life, can be represented. So do arab people, including the palestinians. There is room for both in the middle east, but too many people have vested interests in maintaining a conflict scenario..
Zionists are critical of those Jews across the world who don't identify with Israel.  I agree with your 2nd paragraph, and the US is such a physical state that meets those requirements.  We don't believe that Wiccans have a right to their own physical land just because they're Wiccans.  We believe that people should be able to practice their own beliefs freely without interference.  Because they're people, not because they identify with this group and not that group.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#10    GoSC

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:21 AM

Posted Image

Edited by B Jenkins, 04 May 2013 - 10:22 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#11    and then

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:49 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 04 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Posted Image
I like this - it's accurate and I agree with the policy that makes it so.  Israel is the HOME OF THE JEWS.  If she doesn't want to live there then she isn't forced to. :)

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#12    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

You're happy with the mass displacement of a people?
And Then, you and I disagree as much as we agree, but I've never actually thought of you as callous and cruel. He was kicked out of the land of his fathers because a third party (note - not God this time) gave that land to someone else. How is that fair? Now, if God had made it happen, had he inspired a new Moses to lead the Jews back to Israel, I'd be compassionate towards the displaced, but it's God's will, God wins. This iteration of Israel isn't God's will though, it hasn't been divinely inspired, the masses haven't been led back to their Promised Land by a Prophet. They're there, that's a fact. They'll stay there. that's also a fact. But they're also the aggressors as much as the Palestinians are. Noone is right. Everyone is going to lose unless both sides says "fine, today is the last day of missiles and bulldozers" and they try and build a tomorrow everyone can compromise to live in.
The Israelis have God on their side, they'll end up with all the Israel they are meant to have when God decides it's time for them to have it, not when they just want it.


#13    Mikko-kun

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:21 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 04 May 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Zionism has become a tainted word but it has a proud heritage. The jews, like all of us, have a right to a physical nation- state where their religion, culture and life, can be represented. So do arab people, including the palestinians. There is room for both in the middle east, but too many people have vested interests in maintaining a conflict scenario..

Apply that logic to a lot of indigenous people and we'd have a loooot of more states in lots of places in the world. In reality it's the one who gets pummeled that gives in. If people are wiped out or move out themselves, any people, then you can only prevent that with divine intervention if your god does that. I doubt that since the alleged god doesn't prevent a ton of other atrocities, unless it's a picky god you have. A god whose subjective mindset drives over objective.

Home is what you make of it, and looking at all the other indigenous people who were forced from their lands, not just the american indians, all those seemed to have some sort of faith. Thinking you got it right with religion doesn't necessarily make it so, I doubt many trust god as much as they do a weapon, legistlation, diplomacy and plain scheming. This all is not to say that god wouldn't exist, just how things work in practise, at least until there's a divine intervention.

I'll be gone.

#14    Black Red Devil

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:45 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 May 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

The problem is that the militant forces within the palestinians and many of their leaders NEED ongoing conflict to legitimise their leadership, and provide a rationale for their existence. Peace would remove their power base among many moderate arabs; and indeed strengthen moderate  arab opinion and power, thus they desire ongoing conflict, from self interest.

No logical rational or intelligent person could believe that the arabs could eliminate Israel (without acces to nuclear weapons) and as long as America supports the jewish sate. And any logical, sane, intelligent and rational, person should be aware that a single nuclear attack on israel would result in the annihilation of many arab cities, infrastructure, and innocent civilians. Israel has a minimum of about 100 nuclear warheads, and quite  likely as many as 400.

Do you even know what you’re talking about?  The whole world has recognised the Right for a Palestinian State except for Israel and the US.  The only one stalling the Peace process is Netanyahu and his Right Wing, Zionist Govt.  The PA have recognised Israel while Israel has never stopped building settlements.  These were both fundamental choke points to previous peace talks.

“No logical rational or intelligent person could believe that the arabs could eliminate Israel (without acces to nuclear weapons) and as long as America supports the jewish sate.”  What is that supposed to mean?  That the US has made Israel invincible with nukes and whatever they want, they get?? LOL.

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#15    Black Red Devil

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:51 PM

View Postand then, on 03 May 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

http://www.ynetnews....4375705,00.html

Obama's boy Kerry is probably a little frustrated with the reality that's been faced by so many of his predecessors.

What do you expect when even Obama had to back off in the past when he tried to get Israel to come to the party and join in the peace talks.  Just to point out, Hamas aren't involved in the peace talks.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

- Oscar Wilde




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